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Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow

C'mon. The man was a mass-murdering monster, but can't you at least allow for the possibility that he was a sincere mass-murdering monster?

For all the rhetoric he confined himself to his mansion in Moscow, and never even went further east into the USSR than Russia. Clearly a man of the people.
 
I hadn't read Mises before but after seeing this I certainly will.

Something else he said always sticks with me.

It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization.
 
Glad to hear it, the Austrian school saw first hand how bad it could get-and especially considering the mentality in europe at the time-it was particularly insightful.

Fascism and the modern American left share many of the same policies. And yet they have the nerve to refer to an American conservative (who holds the individual supreme) as Fascists with a superficial understanding of both fascism and conservatism, but hey, both are to the right of european socialism so we must be the same. :roll:
Yes, and they tend to simplify it all to left versus right (which is evil of course) and that's enough to satisfy their curiosity.. We see dozens examples of that daily..
 
It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization.

I'd like to see that in its context, Instagramsci. Saved European civilization from what?
 
Yes, and they tend to simplify it all to left versus right (which is evil of course) and that's enough to satisfy their curiosity.. We see dozens examples of that daily..

They know deep down that being a statist means they are defeated. But tragically these things take time to realize. One day it will be presented as obvious-but not now.
 
Good. We toppled Tzar Dushan's statue in Macedonia also. These bustards do not deserve a statue if you asked me.
 
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I wonder...if the "Ukrainian flag" on the right is the same as these ones...




...if it is, :lamo

Fallen.
 
Here I thought this was going to be about the jailing of the *****cat Dolls. :mrgreen:
 
I would disagree. I generally hold share the view with Hitchens
Here is a good interview with him talking about the civil war in russia Christopher Hitchens on Trotsky (part 1 of 3) - YouTube

I'm not sure what the breezy-British hand-waving discussion of "charisma" and (significant, indeed) journalistic and strategic talents of the approximately worst person ever produced by the Jewish diaspora has to do with the sincerity (or lack thereof) of the worst (as in: most murderous) person ever to emerge from the Russian ethnic crucible.
 
They dont look like nice guys. Communists?

Nationalists. "Svoboda" ("Liberty" - yeah, kind of) - the inheritors of the "tradition" that includes of good deal of anti-Semitism, ethnic anti-Russian and anti-Polish, etc ugliness.

Not allies you generally want to have.

But. And I am speaking as a Pole - and 1/8 Russian - who has a lot a Jewish friends - and no special connections to anything specifically Ukrainian:

This is a cold (hopefully) civil war. Just like almost 100 years ago "my people" (the Constitutional Democrats, the classical liberals of the Russian Empire) had to fight and die on the same side as the assorted monarchists, nationalists and socialists - against the totalitarian monster, we have here a - much less dramatic, but just as clear a choice: Stand up for the bare minimum of civilization and human dignity - or accept the crudest, most shameless (well, outside of places like North Korea and Venezuela) rule by brute force.

"Oh, no, we cannot agree to be free, independent, and exposed to the world of individual opportunities - if it means that some jerk next door will be able to say openly whatever passes through his empty head."

Seriously?
 
Nationalists. "Svoboda" ("Liberty" - yeah, kind of) - the inheritors of the "tradition" that includes of good deal of anti-Semitism, ethnic anti-Russian and anti-Polish, etc ugliness.

Not allies you generally want to have.

But. And I am speaking as a Pole - and 1/8 Russian - who has a lot a Jewish friends - and no special connections to anything specifically Ukrainian:

This is a cold (hopefully) civil war. Just like almost 100 years ago "my people" (the Constitutional Democrats, the classical liberals of the Russian Empire) had to fight and die on the same side as the assorted monarchists, nationalists and socialists - against the totalitarian monster, we have here a - much less dramatic, but just as clear a choice: Stand up for the bare minimum of civilization and human dignity - or accept the crudest, most shameless (well, outside of places like North Korea and Venezuela) rule by brute force.

"Oh, no, we cannot agree to be free, independent, and exposed to the world of individual opportunities - if it means that some jerk next door will be able to say openly whatever passes through his empty head."

Seriously?

I wish eastern europe didn't have to go through these conflicts, but its been a place of unspeakable cruelty for much of history, certainly recent history.

Do you think this could ever become a "hot" war?

I know Russia isnt exactly living la vida loca right now either. Putin is quite unpopular and the nations population is shrinking and leaving.
 
Do you think this could ever become a "hot" war? .

I am cautiously optimistic.

When I was leaving the USSR in 1985, there was no doubt in my mind that a civil war is coming - a civil war in a country with nuclear weapons. God help us all.

And then - then something happened that I would not expect in a thousand years: in 1991, during the inevitable Stalinist coup, the Army refused to follow orders, refused to shoot civilians. Suddenly, it behaved as if were a normal national defense force, not a totalitarian tool of oppression created by Lenin and Trotsky.

I am not sure the situation in Kiev now is all that similar to the situation in Moscow back then, but the most important thing that is happening is not the flag-waving, or the statue-toppling, or the speech-making (even by cute little American starlets engaged to Ukrainian market-liberal incarnations of Terminator) - or anything Klychko, Putin, Joe Biden (God help us all again) or the Pope can do, pro or contra

The most important thing is what's going on in the skulls of all these shielded, helmeted, nightstick-wielding "special forces" guys we watch on the screen.

Because, you see, they still have options. They are not the SS/Gestapo or the KGB/NKVD yet - they still have a lot to lose. And they are also Ukrainians. Very aware of all the horrible history and the urgent need for leaving the worst of it behind.

My - very tentative - prediction: The order to shoot - with the real ammo - will come - and it will be disobeyed. The powers-that-be will lose whatever is left of their legitimacy, the moment they issue the order. At that precise moment, the Ukraine will cease to be the lesser post-Soviet zombie mini-me of the Putin's Russia, and will become a normal European country.
 
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I am cautiously optimistic.

When I was leaving the USSR in 1985, there was no doubt in my mind that a civil war is coming - a civil war in a country with nuclear weapons. God help us all.

And then - then something happened that I would not expect in a thousand years: in 1991, during the inevitable Stalinist coup, the Army refused to follow orders, refused to shoot civilians. Suddenly, it behaved as if were a normal national defense force, not a totalitarian tool of oppression created by Lenin and Trotsky.

I am not sure the situation in Kiev now is all that similar to the situation in Moscow back then, but the most important thing that is happening is not the flag-waving, or the statue-toppling, or the speech-making (even by cute little American starlets engaged to Ukrainian market-liberal incarnations of Terminator) - or anything Klychko, Putin, Joe Biden (God help us all again) or the Pope can do, pro or contra

The most important thing is what's going on in the skulls of all these shielded, helmeted, nightstick-wielding "special forces" guys we watch on the screen.

Because, you see, they still have options. They are not the SS/Gestapo or the KGB/NKVD yet - they still have a lot to lose. And they are also Ukrainians. Very aware of all the horrible history and the urgent need for leaving the worst of it behind.

My - very tentative - prediction: The order to shoot - with the real ammo - will come - and it will be disobeyed. The powers-that-be will lose whatever is left of their legitimacy, the moment they issue the order. At that precise moment, the Ukraine will cease to be the lesser post-Soviet zombie mini-me of the Putin's Russia, and will become a normal European country.

A very insightful post, I hope you are right and they can leave the past where it is.
 
My - very tentative - prediction: The order to shoot - with the real ammo - will come - and it will be disobeyed. The powers-that-be will lose whatever is left of their legitimacy, the moment they issue the order. At that precise moment, the Ukraine will cease to be the lesser post-Soviet zombie mini-me of the Putin's Russia, and will become a normal European country.

Huh?!?!?

I usually don't mind reading your opinions about former USSR countries.
But this above...is wow - Ukraine suffers from corruption, poverty and has a lot of other issues including some with "Nationalists" of all kinds - but it is very far from being some totalitarian country which orders shooting protesters with live ammo, the same goes for Russia.

Cyrylek, I think you need to put your soviet experience to rest and look at these countries as they really are - deeply complicated places, suffering from inability to identify themselves culturally and historically, infested with corruption and a myriad of other problems - but they are not the USSR.

Cheers,
Fallen.
 
Huh?!?!?

I usually don't mind reading your opinions about former USSR countries.
But this above...is wow - Ukraine suffers from corruption, poverty and has a lot of other issues including some with "Nationalists" of all kinds - but it is very far from being some totalitarian country which orders shooting protesters with live ammo, the same goes for Russia.

Cyrylek, I think you need to put your soviet experience to rest and look at these countries as they really are - deeply complicated places, suffering from inability to identify themselves culturally and historically, infested with corruption and a myriad of other problems - but they are not the USSR.

Cheers,
Fallen.

FA, correct me if Im wrong but can't militant groups engage in sectarian violence without the nation itself being totalitarian?
 
FA, correct me if Im wrong but can't militant groups engage in sectarian violence without the nation itself being totalitarian?

They can, but militant groups don't have anything to do with ordering "Berkut" to shoot or not to shoot on protesters.

Fallen.
 
Huh?!?!?

I usually don't mind reading your opinions about former USSR countries.
But this above...is wow - Ukraine suffers from corruption, poverty and has a lot of other issues including some with "Nationalists" of all kinds - but it is very far from being some totalitarian country which orders shooting protesters with live ammo, the same goes for Russia..

I will be delighted if your perspective is closer to reality than mine.

I would give my left (dominant) hand for that.

But I am afraid you underestimate the addictiveness of power. And moral blindness it causes.
 
I will be delighted if your perspective is closer to reality than mine.
I would give my left (dominant) hand for that.
But I am afraid you underestimate the addictiveness of power. And moral blindness it causes.

For the sake of my own country and for the sake of Ukraine, I hope I am right.

Fallen.
 
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