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Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647]

Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Bodhisattva said:
I don't see the on going problem here. Don't open a business if you find a problem with the laws. Complaining later is stupid.
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Just don't practice your right to open a business if you don't want oppressed. Sure...sure..
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Grant said:
So the marketplace worked. No government intervention was required.
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That's a matter of opinion. In my opinion all Public Accommodation laws as applied to private businesses should be repealed and the market place allowed to deal with those model their businesses on discriminatory practices.

The fact is that our opinion does not reflect reality, the laws exist. A person that finds it morally wrong to sell to a gay person should get no more an Special Discrimination Privilege under the law as opposed to a person that finds it morally wrong to sell to a black person. The solution isn't to band-aid the problem and slap a special exception to discrimination and allow it only if the individual "claims" a "religious believe".

The long term solution is to repeal such laws and let the market sort it out. Ya it will be messy, ya some people will be pissed, ya some people will be discriminated against - but such is the price of freedom and recognizing the property rights of the business owner.


>>>>
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

ttwtt78640 said:
The answer, when the rights of one conflict with the rights of another, should be decided by a judge. Your right to freely swing your arm ends where my nose begins. ;)
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A judge with a political agenda? A judge that refuses to interpret constitutional law but wants to play the role of the legislator as well? Yeah... Right.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Henrin said:
Just don't practice your right to open a business if you don't want oppressed. Sure...sure..
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LOL....so now the bigots are the ones being oppressed? Wow.....nice attempt at turning the tables. Its like the racists who try to claim that those pointing out their racism are really the racists....too funny.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

vesper said:
A judge with a political agenda? A judge that refuses to interpret constitutional law but wants to play the role of the legislator as well? Yeah... Right.
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The Judge didn't play "legislator". The Colorado legislature passed the State Public Accommodation law which includes sexual orientation. The law was previously posted in the thread. The State Judge ruled in accordance with the State Law.

Sounds like you wanted him/her to rule against what the law said. You want the Judge to overrule the legislature and be an activist judge?

>>>>
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

disneydude said:
LOL....so now the bigots are the ones being oppressed? Wow.....nice attempt at turning the tables. Its like the racists who try to claim that those pointing out their racism are really the racists....too funny.
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People have the natural right to decide on who they will provide service and who they will allow entry to their property. This law is a violation of property rights and a violation of the right to your own labor and yes that is oppression. It is however NOT oppression for someone to decide to not do business with you. If they don't want to serve you or allow you entry for whatever reason that is their right.
 
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Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

vesper said:
You need a name of a particular religion, start with Catholics.

Why the Catholic Church and ‘gay marriage’ cannot coexist - CNA Blog

As far as your comments on infidels, we have laws on the books that do not tolerate physical attacks on other persons.
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Baking a cake is not affirming anything about its intended use, it is simply baking a cake. If I run a pet shop and know that a mouse is being purchased, not as a pet, but to be used as snake food, a religious sacrifice or in a scientific experiment it is still not legal to deny its sale on that basis. All the pet shop owner is required to do is to sell pets to any and all paying customers.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

WorldWatcher said:
The Judge didn't play "legislator". The Colorado legislature passed the State Public Accommodation law which includes sexual orientation. The law was previously posted in the thread. The State Judge ruled in accordance with the State Law.



>>>>
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Yes but that doesn't mean it isn't happening elsewhere. I never thought I would see the day a baker would be facing a year in prison because his moral conscience did not want to participate in providing services for a gay marriage.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Henrin said:
Just don't practice your right to open a business if you don't want oppressed. Sure...sure..
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So the ones that want to discriminate are the ones being oppressed? Sorry, there is nothing oppressive about being inclusive...
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Bodhisattva said:
So the ones that want to discriminate are the ones being oppressed? Sorry, there is nothing oppressive about being inclusive...
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Unless of course it is imposed on you against your will.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

AGENT J said:
Heres more articles on this win of equal rights:

https://www.aclu.org/lgbt-rights/charlie-craig-and-david-mullins-v-masterpiece-cakeshop
Judge orders Colo. cake-maker to serve gay couples - The Washington Post
Judge orders baker to serve gay couples despite his religious beliefs | Fox News
Judge rules wedding cake shop must serve gays, despite owner's religious beliefs - Long Island Top News | Examiner.com
Judge orders Colorado baker to serve gay couples - U.S. News
Colorado baker discriminated by denying gay couple wedding cake: judge - Chicago Tribune
Judge Rules Colorado Bakery Discriminated Against Gay Couple - Wall Street Journal - WSJ.com
Judge orders Colo. cake-maker to serve gay couples - The Denver Post

heres some quotes from the ruling/judge from the varies links

when i can find the actual ruling ill post it too

“The undisputed facts show that Respondents (Phillips) discriminated against Complainants because of their sexual orientation by refusing to sell them a wedding cake for their same-sex marriage,” Judge Spencer wrote.
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“Conceptually, [Mr. Phillips's] refusal to serve a same-sex couple due to religious objection to same-sex weddings is no different from refusing to serve a biracial couple because of religious objection to biracial marriage,” wrote Judge Spencer.
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The order says the cake-maker must “cease and desist from discriminating” against gay couples. Although the judge did not impose fines in this case, the business will face penalties if it continues to turn away gay couples who want to buy cakes.
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“At first blush, it may seem reasonable that a private business should be able to refuse service to anyone it chooses,” Judge Spencer said in his written order. “This view, however, fails to take into account the cost to society and the hurt caused to persons who are denied service simply because of who they are.”
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so theres lots of reading for everyone and it seems the fact remains the owner broke the law and illegally discriminated against others infringing on their rights

next time the shop owner will no better and wont break the law and violate peoples rights
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AGENT J said:
Just wanted to reply to this in case people missed all the articles and the ruling

Owner chose to play in the public realm and open a public access business, this requires a licenses and has rules and laws that regulated it
Owner chose to break the law, commit a crime and make himself a criminal which has consequences


The judge actually let the criminal off easy,he didn't fine him or anything, he just gave him a cease and desist order.

So all the owner has to do is stop breaking the law, committing crimes, illegal discriminating and stop infringing on peoples rights, seems easy to me.
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78+ pages and nothing has changed

just another case of law, equal/civil/human rights, and freedom winning
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Henrin said:
Unless of course it is imposed on you against your will.
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Then everybody is being oppressed to some degree... and that is kinda ridiculous.

State imposed speed limits... I am being oppressed!
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

In what possible way is government force imposed on people representative of freedom?
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Bodhisattva said:
So the ones that want to discriminate are the ones being oppressed? Sorry, there is nothing oppressive about being inclusive...
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exactly nobody buys that type of fantasies and fallacies because facts prove different
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Grant said:
Okay, I'll try to make it easier. If a Muslim bakery refuses to write "Jesus Is Our Savior" on a cake intended for a Church social should they be forced to do so? Or would fair minded people respect their feelings on the issue?
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My answer is exactly the same.

If you are going down that road, why should any business serve anyone with religious beliefs they disagree with? I mean, Muslims and Christians think ALL other belief systems are wrong, period.

No cakes for christenings, none for someone getting a divorce (yes, some do celebrate that), a wedding for an athiest, none for females graduating school...yes... a Jew, a Christian or Muslim CAN carry an extremist belief and run a business...no get well cake for a woman that had an abortion, no cakes for Jews period, A Jehovah's Witness wont bake ANY birthday cakes for anyone. LOL...Have you any idea how big a business Christmas cakes are for Jewish bakeries? You would if you lived in the NYC metro area.

Some on this thread will say they shouldnt have to. I am not in that category.
 
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Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Bodhisattva said:
Then everybody is being oppressed to some degree... and that is kinda ridiculous.

State imposed speed limits... I am being oppressed!
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I don't think you own the roads. Try again.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

ttwtt78640 said:
Baking a cake is not affirming anything about its intended use, it is simply baking a cake. If I run a pet shop and know that a mouse is being purchased, not as a pet, but to be used as snake food, a religious sacrifice or in a scientific experiment it is still not legal to deny its sale on that basis. All the pet shop owner is required to do is to sell pets to any and all paying customers.
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That is your opinion and you are very much entitled to it and if you were a baker, no cake would be a problem for you to provide. But the one that does feel a moral conviction not wanting to participate in things they feel morally wrong has a constitutional right do decline such things.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Henrin said:
People have the natural right to decide on who they will provide service and who they will allow entry to their property. This law is a violation of property rights and a violation of the right to your own labor and yes that is oppression. It is however NOT oppression for someone to decide to not do business with you. If they don't want to serve you or allow you entry for whatever reason that is their right.
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Not when they operate a business open to the public. Sorry...but there is no "natural right" to discriminate. The law is not even close to a violation of property rights. You have an extreme distorted view of what discrimination and oppression are. From what you are attempting to argue.....the blacks who sat in on the "white only" lunch counters were oppressing the rights of the bigoted owners so that they were not able to freely discriminate. Wow....just wow.....
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

vesper said:
Yes but that doesn't mean it isn't happening elsewhere. I never thought I would see the day a baker would be facing a year in prison because his moral conscience did not want to participate in providing services for a gay marriage.
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sorry nobody honest buys this rewrite lol

why would it be weird or shocking for a criminal to face penalties of the law?

when you break the law and commit crimes theres always a possibility of paying for them crimes, this is actually what happened. And in this case the criminal and the owner was let off easy he wasn't even fined.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Grant said:
Okay, I'll try to make it easier. If a Muslim bakery refuses to write "Jesus Is Our Savior" on a cake intended for a Church social should they be forced to do so? Or would fair minded people respect their feelings on the issue?
Click to expand...

I thought that business was about making money...
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

vesper said:
That is your opinion and you are very much entitled to it and if you were a baker, no cake would be a problem for you to provide. But the one that does feel a moral conviction not wanting to participate in things they feel morally wrong has a constitutional right do decline such things.
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no they do not when it breaks the law and infringes on others rights

its the owners fault for break the law and nobody else's
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Henrin said:
I don't think you own the roads. Try again.
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Playing music too loud at a party in my house... check mate.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

disneydude said:
Not when they operate a business open to the public. Sorry...but there is no "natural right" to discriminate. The law is not even close to a violation of property rights. You have an extreme distorted view of what discrimination and oppression are. From what you are attempting to argue.....the blacks who sat in on the "white only" lunch counters were oppressing the rights of the bigoted owners so that they were not able to freely discriminate. Wow....just wow.....
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*head desk bang x3* There is no such thing as private property open to the public outside of the law. You're basically supporting your argument by your conclusion. We call that a fallacy. Since one of the foundations of property is control of access to such property and property is a natural right, there is little doubt that the government controlling access decisions of private property IS a violation of the natural right to control access to your property.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

vesper said:
That is your opinion and you are very much entitled to it and if you were a baker, no cake would be a problem for you to provide. But the one that does feel a moral conviction not wanting to participate in things they feel morally wrong has a constitutional right do decline such things.
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Then simply stop selling all wedding cakes. I am not exactly sure what makes a cake into a wedding cake. Is it the number of layers? Placing figurines on top? Writing something on it?
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Henrin said:
*head desk bang x3* There is no such thing as private property open to the public outside of the law. You're basically supporting your argument by your conclusion. We call that a fallacy. Since one of the foundations of property is control of access to such property and property is a natural right, there is little doubt that the government controlling access decisions of private property IS a violation of the natural right to control access to your property.
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Sorry....but it is you who is engaging in circular reasoning. I know you hate it...but the law is the law. In this country, if you want to open a business, then you cannot discriminate. That's just the way it is. Don't like it? Don't open a business. It really is as simple as that.
 
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