• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

What a strange discussion. When I happen upon a funeral procession, I politely stop the car or stand and face the procession, no matter who is in the casket. How about you?
 
Smeagol said:
I said it before but it bears repeating. The ONLY reason Mandela was associated with communism for a time was during the years of struggle to end apartheid...
Click to expand...

Although, I am not here to denounce your take on it, it would seem that facts have this particular statement wrong....According to Professor Ellis:

As evidence of Mr Mandela's Communist party membership, Prof Ellis cites minutes from a secret 1982 SACP meeting, discovered in a collection of private papers at the University of Cape Town, in which a veteran former party member, the late John Pule Motshabi, talks about how Mr Mandela was a party member some two decades before.

In the minutes, Mr Motshabi, is quoted as saying: "There was an accusation that we opposed allowing Nelson [Mandela] and Walter (Sisulu, a fellow activist) into the Family (a code word for the party) ... we were not informed because this was arising after the 1950 campaigns (a series of street protests). The recruitment of the two came after."

While other SACP members have previously confirmed Mr Mandela's party membership, many of their testimonies were given under duress in police interviews, where they might have sought to implicate him. However, the minutes from the 1982 SACP meeting, said Prof Ellis, offered more reliable proof. "This is written in a closed party meeting so nobody is trying to impress or mislead the public," he said.

Although Mr Mandela appears to have joined the SACP more for their political connections than their ideas, his membership could have damaged his standing in the West had it been disclosed while he was still fighting to dismantle apartheid.

Africa was a Cold War proxy battleground until the end of the 1980s, and international support for his cause, which included the Free Nelson Mandela campaign in Britain, drew partly on his image as a compromise figure loyal neither to East nor West.

"Nelson Mandela's reputation is based both on his ability to overcome personal animosities and to be magnanimous to all South Africans, white and black, and that is what impressed the world," said Prof Ellis, a former Amnesty International researcher who is based at the Free University of Amsterdam. "But what this shows is that like any politician, he was prepared to make opportunistic alliances.

Nelson Mandela 'proven' to be a member of the Communist Party after decades of denial - Telegraph
Click to expand...


...The free countries of the world that were founded on the principles of liberty choose to stand in solidarity with brutal subjugation and denial of the rights of citizenship of the majority population by strict iron-fisted enforcement by the minority based on race. He would have preferred to stand with the US, Western Europe, etc. but we were on the side of Apartheid. The only countries offering their support and solidarity were places like Cuba and the Soviets. Then after South Africa gained its freedom, he led South Africa not in not becoming communist government but one based on similar rights and freedoms patterned after the US model.
Click to expand...

This is a regrettable part of history, and one that Reagan himself regretted his veto.

Ronald Reagan regretted vetoing sanctions against South Africa’s pro-apartheid government, a top official in the late President’s cabinet said Sunday.
"I'm sure he did regret it, in fact, I'm certain that he did," James Baker III, Reagan’s former Chief of Staff and Treasury Secretary said on CBS’ “Face the Nation” during a wide-ranging discussion about former South African President Nelson Mandela. “It was after all, I think, the only time a veto of his had been overridden in two terms. Certainly, he regretted it."


Read more: Ronald Reagan regretted vetoing sanctions against pro-apartheid South Africa - NY Daily News
Click to expand...
 
j-mac said:
Although, I am not here to denounce your take on it, it would seem that facts have this particular statement wrong....According to Professor Ellis:






This is a regrettable part of history, and one that Reagan himself regretted his veto.
Click to expand...

Sounds llke he was too busy using others and hiding his true self to gain power and influence....not unlike Obama.
 
Last edited:
j-mac said:
Although, I am not here to denounce your take on it, it would seem that facts have this particular statement wrong....According to Professor Ellis:






This is a regrettable part of history, and one that Reagan himself regretted his veto.
Click to expand...

I'm not for freeze-framing anyone in one of their more regrettable moments. I'm happy Reagan would have done things differently if he had them to do over. However, my thinking on the issue would surround the time Mandela was active in the ANC, which would be prior to his imprisonment and after his release. What was US policy toward South Africa in 1962 and earlier that could have driven him into a marriage of convenience? Then is there any indication Mandela embraced communism 1990 and forward that he truly wanted communism after the US and Great Brittan finally came around to supporting democracy?
 
Smeagol said:
I'm not for freeze-framing anyone in one of their more regrettable moments. I'm happy Reagan would have done things differently if he had them to do over. However, my thinking on the issue would surround the time Mandela was active in the ANC, which would be prior to his imprisonment and after his release. What was US policy toward South Africa in 1962 and earlier that could have driven him into a marriage of convenience? Then is there any indication Mandela embraced communism 1990 and forward that he truly wanted communism after the US and Great Brittan finally came around to supporting democracy?
Click to expand...

I can't get into his head like that...There certainly would be evidence that the communist ties would have to be more than a ruse to gain support, to hold up for decades, however, I also think that 27 years in prison gave him a solidified temperance that allowed him to achieve his goals without the violence he embraced as a younger man. That, and communism was dead, and dying on a global scale.
 
j-mac said:
From what the Sheriff says, he is flying the flags at half mast to honor locals that died on our state....
Click to expand...

I'm sure that's the only reason. Riddle me this, did the Sheriff fly the flag at half mast when Reagan died?
 
j-mac said:
Although, I am not here to denounce your take on it, it would seem that facts have this particular statement wrong....According to Professor Ellis:






This is a regrettable part of history, and one that Reagan himself regretted his veto.
Click to expand...
I find myself regretting I ever voted for Reagan.
 
clownboy said:
Whether that is true or not, he still made no significant contribution to America and thus our flag should not be lowered. Honor him or not all you wish. Hell, give him a Nobel prize. But we are not the world and our flag belongs to Americans.
Click to expand...

We are a world
 
Objective Voice said:
As a Navy veteran who has performed many Honors Ceremonies, I could tell you you're wrong, but quoting regulations as this poster previous did on page one does the trick so much better.
Click to expand...

Have you even been following the thread? We have only honored two foreign dignitaries in such a way (Churchill and Pope John Paul), both had a significant ties to, significant achievements for our population, our citizenry. It is very largely an American honor that honors Americans. That is how is has always been used. Mandela doesn't meet any bar for that in any stretch of the imagination.

Not to mention, you ducked and dodged from your original mind reading statement which was wrong altogether.
 
calamity said:
I'm sure that's the only reason. Riddle me this, did the Sheriff fly the flag at half mast when Reagan died?
Click to expand...

Don't know...I didn't live here then...I lived in Maryland when Reagan died....But that still doesn't equate to what the Sheriff said...He said he wasn't flying the flag at half mast for Saint Nelson, because he wasn't American....Reagan was, so how does it matter to your equation there?

I find myself regretting I ever voted for Reagan.
Click to expand...

Why?
 
Infinite Chaos said:
LOL no. Even if he was- he served his time in prison for it and the point of prison is generally a punishment.

All you and the others claiming Mandela was some evil commie terrorist will still claim that despite all the evidence against it. No matter that he rightly or wrongly was sent to prison for 27 years - it will never be enough punishment.

Hope you never committed any crimes lest you find the same attitude against you - whether you serve punishment or not.
Click to expand...

What is this evidence that commies, Marxist, progressives and liberals keep talking about but nobody produces ?

Nelson Mendela was offered a number of times to be released from prison if he would just denounce terrorism and he refused.

Nobody including President Obama denies that Obama wasn't a homophobe. President Obama just said he "evolved" and was no longer a homophobe.

I suppose some time in 1990 Nelson Mendela evolved.
 
APACHERAT said:
Again, how did he end it ? He was sitting in prison for over two decades when apartheid was ended. Are you saying that Nelson Mandela personally ordered the necklace murders of black Africans ?
Click to expand...

Why don't you read about him and educate yourself. Look at how many countries that are sending representation. Even Ted Cruz is attending
 
j-mac said:
Don't know...I didn't live here then...I lived in Maryland when Reagan died....But that still doesn't equate to what the Sheriff said...He said he wasn't flying the flag at half mast for Saint Nelson, because he wasn't American....Reagan was, so how does it matter to your equation there?
Click to expand...
Because I was responding to the quote in the post that said he only flies the flag at half-mast for locals.



Why?
Click to expand...
Because he was a bad president. An "empty suit" I believe you conservatives today call it.
 
calamity said:
Because I was responding to the quote in the post that said he only flies the flag at half-mast for locals.
Click to expand...

You have that wrong.

Because he was a bad president. An "empty suit" I believe you conservatives today call it.
Click to expand...

You have that wrong too....Bating a thousand.
 
Carleen said:
Why don't you read about him and educate yourself. Look at how many countries that are sending representation. Even Ted Cruz is attending
Click to expand...

And what does that matter? Look he's like Michael Jackson (except he's not an American). A ton of folks honored him at his funeral. Yet some folks will never honor him. The fact remains Mandela has no connection whatsoever with America, did nothing for America and is honored by only some Americans. So honor him all you wish, but lowering our flag for him is a no-go.
 
Carleen said:
Why don't you read about him and educate yourself. Look at how many countries that are sending representation. Even Ted Cruz is attending
Click to expand...

I was well aware of who Nelson Mandela was by 1971. Most Americans had no knowledge who Mandela was until the mid 1980's and all they knew about him was that he was sitting in a prison in some country they couldn't even find on a map.

1962 Mandela (on the left) illegally left South Africa for military training in Morocco not Algeria as the revisionist claim by the ALF which was aligned with the Soviet Union and was armed by the Soviet Union.

47eff2cfad782ea8ed242beec15e0386_four_column.jpg

1c1015ba-3ef9-48c9-b2da-073a1960d5a4_16x9_788x442.jpg
 
APACHERAT said:
I was well aware of who Nelson Mandela was by 1971. Most Americans had no knowledge who Mandela was until the mid 1980's and all they knew about him was that he was sitting in a prison in some country they couldn't even find on a map.

View attachment 67157913

1962 Mandela (on the left) illegally left South Africa for military training in Morocco not Algeria as the revisionist claim by the ALF which was aligned with the Soviet Union and was armed by the Soviet Union.

View attachment 67157915
Click to expand...

So what, so what, and... so what. Most of us don't care that he was engaged in military resistance--we laud it. The South African people had every right to take up arms against the regime that oppressed them, ghettoized them, and terrorized them. In the end it proved critical to the greater combination of forces that forced the Apartheid regime to the table.
 
clownboy said:
Have you even been following the thread? We have only honored two foreign dignitaries in such a way (Churchill and Pope John Paul), both had a significant ties to, significant achievements for our population, our citizenry. It is very largely an American honor that honors Americans. That is how is has always been used. Mandela doesn't meet any bar for that in any stretch of the imagination.

Not to mention, you ducked and dodged from your original mind reading statement which was wrong altogether.
Click to expand...

What did John Paul do for the United States?
 
Sherman123 said:
So what, so what, and... so what. Most of us don't care that he was engaged in military resistance--we laud it. The South African people had every right to take up arms against the regime that oppressed them, ghettoized them, and terrorized them. In the end it proved critical to the greater combination of forces that forced the Apartheid regime to the table.
Click to expand...

True and I concur. But the ANC used terrorism and targeted innocent civilians, mostly black Africans and murdered them. They used terrorism as a tactic. Terrorising the civilian population, murdering black South Africans who had no connections to the South African government. Why do you think the Zulus, the only real indigenous South Africans opposed Mandela and the ANC ? The Zulus were treated as third class citizens under apartheid but they opposed the use of terrorism.
 
clownboy said:
Have you even been following the thread? We have only honored two foreign dignitaries in such a way (Churchill and Pope John Paul), both had a significant ties to, significant achievements for our population, our citizenry. It is very largely an American honor that honors Americans. That is how is has always been used. Mandela doesn't meet any bar for that in any stretch of the imagination.

Not to mention, you ducked and dodged from your original mind reading statement which was wrong altogether.
Click to expand...

Just because you chose a name that mirrors a fool doesn't mean you must act like one. I know what this thread is about and I'm fully away of the more tradional circumstances whereby our government authorizes the lowering of the US flag at half-staff. That still does not negate the fact that under federal law the President can choose to show honors to foreign dignitaries at his discretion. You may not like that he's doing so for Mandela, but you're in no position to change what has occurred.

So, again I say when leaders around the world recognize the significance of his conciliatory efforts on behalf of his people and, as such, they recognize him as an example for peaceful leadership, how do you not honor such a man in this way?
 
APACHERAT said:
True and I concur. But the ANC used terrorism and targeted innocent civilians, mostly black Africans and murdered them. They used terrorism as a tactic. Terrorising the civilian population, murdering black South Africans who had no connections to the South African government. Why do you think the Zulus, the only real indigenous South Africans opposed Mandela and the ANC ? The Zulus were treated as third class citizens under apartheid but they opposed the use of terrorism.
Click to expand...

The vast majority of ANC activities were against the South African security state, against Ian Smith's regime in Rhodesia, and along the entirety of the South African border region. Terrorism and more frequently sabotage was occasionally used and I refuse to pass judgement on the decision as it played a vital role in creating tension in South Africa society, pressuring the regime to do more militarily (which had the effect of exhausting it), and pressured white South Africans to seek an ending to the violence.

Also... I have no clue where you received your information on the 'Zulus' but a few things:

1. The Zulu were not and are not a monolithic entity. You are massively generalizing here. Thousands of Zulu joined the ANC such as the current president of South Africa Jacob Zuma.

2. If you are referring to Zulu nationalists like the Inkatha Freedom Party or the collaborationist Apartheid supported government of Kwazulu-Natal they both engaged in inter-ethnic terror and opposed the ANC for reasons of nationalism and as a mechanism for retaining power in their collaborator government.

3. Seriously... no terrorism? Arguably the most violent group in the spectrum of South African opposition parties and ethnic militias was the Inkatha Freedom Party and their associates.
 
I personally couldn't give a rats ass about Mandela the commie. Oh, and isn't SA and specifically Johannesburg the rape capital of the world? Great country ya got there, what with 1 out of every three women at risk of rape and 1 in 4 living with AIDS, you'll got to fly the flag of the USA to promote this man's accomplishments.. Accountability isn't exactly a word Obama knows very well though.. Wonder if we'll see Mandela's bust on the WH mantle anytime soon?


Tim-
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom