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Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

Well if I forgave your miscounting a 49 seat majority as "only just winning" then your "Iron lady" sentence proves you didn't research how and why she got the name.

Try again -the link I gave you really will help you.

I did not miscount, the seat numbers mean nothing. If the other 2 parties spilt the vote you can win an absolute majority of much more that that with only 35% of the vote. The only thing that counts here is percentages and raw votes. And in the first election, the UK as said has a funny electoral system.

Still does not change the issue, Mandela being a person who is loved and respected around the world (in most countries) and Thatcher was sort of respected by her own party in the UK and that is part of the reason the flags go at half mast for Mandela and I think that is logical.
 
Agreed, you were wrong on all counts.

No, I am still right. Mandela was an exceptional person who deserved this honor because of the great person that he was, the extraordinary story of his life, the great legacy of his uniting and cleansing role he had as South African president and the personal character of greatness that he radiated.

Margaret Thatcher may have deserved that honor but that would have been purely on the basis of the friendship between the US and the UK and the respect for the office of the PM and not so much her legacy.

Personally I may respect Thatcher for breaking the glass ceiling by becoming a female PM but that is where my respect largely ends. I have a much more warm feeling about Mandela. It may have to do with the struggle he fought against Apartheid, the most infamous word of the Dutch language and the most hated Dutch word in the Netherlands and the warm feeling the Dutch people had for Mandela. Thatcher rubber most people the wrong way.
 
No, I am still right. Mandela was an exceptional person who deserved this honor because of the great person that he was, the extraordinary story of his life, the great legacy of his uniting and cleansing role he had as South African president and the personal character of greatness that he radiated.

Margaret Thatcher may have deserved that honor but that would have been purely on the basis of the friendship between the US and the UK and the respect for the office of the PM and not so much her legacy.

Personally I may respect Thatcher for breaking the glass ceiling by becoming a female PM but that is where my respect largely ends. I have a much more warm feeling about Mandela. It may have to do with the struggle he fought against Apartheid, the most infamous word of the Dutch language and the most hated Dutch word in the Netherlands and the warm feeling the Dutch people had for Mandela. Thatcher rubber most people the wrong way.

I actually admired both and can see the positives in both leaders, I can understand the horror some Dutch feel about Afrikaaners but that is no reason to minimise Thatcher's legacy.
 
I actually admired both and can see the positives in both leaders, I can understand the horror some Dutch feel about Afrikaaners but that is no reason to minimise Thatcher's legacy.

But Thatcher did not have a legacy (positive legacy) as Mandela had. Also, Mandela was likeable and most did not see that in the Iron Lady.
 
Communists.... He was one.

LOL

Like communists are 'evil'. It's a failed and worthless economic system for a govt to implement IMO but has nothing to do with morality.

(Sorry, obviously still early in the thread)
 
His so called roll in ending apartheid was to kill innocent women and children. There.:roll: How do you defend that?

Hmmm...what's our role in Afghanistan & Iraq been? We've certainly killed innocent women and children and for IMO, not nearly as legitimate a goal.
 
LOL

Like communists are 'evil'. It's a failed and worthless economic system for a govt to implement IMO but has nothing to do with morality.

(Sorry, obviously still early in the thread)

Not evil? Tell that to all the millions who have parished under it's weight.
 
Not evil? Tell that to all the millions who have parished under it's weight.

As opposed to the millions slaughtered when we conquered the Americas?

The hundreds of thousands killed in Iraq and Afghanistan as pawns in much larger game?

Both of those were done in the name of democracy, at least in North America and the ME.
 
But Thatcher did not have a legacy (positive legacy) as Mandela had.

Are you kidding?

She turned the UK economy around and she was partially responsible for the liberation with Ronald Reagan of millions in Eastern Europe.
 
As opposed to the millions slaughtered when we conquered the Americas?

The hundreds of thousands killed in Iraq and Afghanistan as pawns in much larger game?

Both of those were done in the name of democracy, at least in North America and the ME.

Didn't say evil wasn't part of those endeavors but, nice deflection. Hate America FIRST!

Communism has very few redeeming qualities.
 
Are you kidding?

She turned the UK economy around and she was partially responsible for the liberation with Ronald Reagan of millions in Eastern Europe.

No, not kidding. She may have done a few good things but they are offset by a whole host of poor decisions and really bad ones.

Also, let us not forget the poll tax, the giving away of the state owned businesses (which could have sold for a much higher amount) and the fact that it was as much Howe (of not more) who drove the economic changes in the UK.
 
Didn't say evil wasn't part of those endeavors but, nice deflection. Hate America FIRST!

Communism has very few redeeming qualities.

Not deflection at all...a broadening of perspective.

The fact that communism has been used in an evil way doesnt mean that the doctrine necessarily is, nor that ONLY communism is evil.

So it's a comparison without value if based only on that criteria.
 
No, not kidding. She may have done a few good things but they are offset by a whole host of poor decisions and really bad ones.

Also, let us not forget the poll tax, the giving away of the state owned businesses (which could have sold for a much higher amount) and the fact that it was as much Howe (of not more) who drove the economic changes in the UK.

Whatever you think of Thatcher, facts continue to go against you - please just stick to Mandela, I'm afraid your recollection or reading of history you may have been too young to experience continue to be wrong.

You were doing much better on Mandela. Economic policy was Thatcher's key driver and philosophy; she surrounded herself with bright young enterprising minds and in Parliament she worked with radical thinkers within the Conservative party and then charged her cabinet with putting her policies into place. Howe did as told like everyone else until her cowardly cabinet turned and betrayed her.
Her original cabinets were shaped by her beliefs and policies, people who did not meet her expectations and demands were removed or replaced in re-shuffles. As a gutsy leader, prepared to think really differently, she made mistakes but also left us a strong legacy in the world which none of our politicians since (Socialist / Conservative or Liberal) could match.
 
Not deflection at all...a broadening of perspective.

The fact that communism has been used in an evil way doesnt mean that the doctrine necessarily is, nor that ONLY communism is evil.

So it's a comparison without value if based only on that criteria.

If you don't think complete control over a population by a government where they own everything and you nothing isn't evil then, you need to do some serious re-evaluation.
 
Whatever you think of Thatcher, facts continue to go against you - please just stick to Mandela, I'm afraid your recollection or reading of history you may have been too young to experience continue to be wrong.

You were doing much better on Mandela. Economic policy was Thatcher's key driver and philosophy; she surrounded herself with bright young enterprising minds and in Parliament she worked with radical thinkers within the Conservative party and then charged her cabinet with putting her policies into place. Howe did as told like everyone else until her cowardly cabinet turned and betrayed her.
Her original cabinets were shaped by her beliefs and policies, people who did not meet her expectations and demands were removed or replaced in re-shuffles. As a gutsy leader, prepared to think really differently, she made mistakes but also left us a strong legacy in the world which none of our politicians since (Socialist / Conservative or Liberal) could match.

That is your opinion. And I am not too young to understand that part of History (Thatcherism) from over the Channel we in the Netherlands were quite close to the action. Also, having had BBC since I was about 9 (and by the age of 12 reasonably fluent in English) and being a history and politics enthusiast (not many from the Netherlands took time off from work to view the US election results since 1996) and I have been following English politics even longer.

I also would not agree with flying the flags at half mast if Blair were to die. He also did not have a great personal inspirational story behind him (unlike Mandela).

Thatcher and Blair dabbled in politics with varying degrees of success and deserve no flags at half mast. Mandela led an enslaved nation to freedom, he was the poster child for forgiveness and was a great personal inspiration to hundreds of millions around the world and for that reason the flags were shown at half mast.

To make a long story short, I could have cared less if they had the flags at half mast of any of them and I also would have cared less if they did it for all of them. But when it comes to who is a more deserving candidate for that honor, for me it is only Nelson Mandela.
 
If you don't think complete control over a population by a government where they own everything and you nothing isn't evil then, you need to do some serious re-evaluation.

That is not the basic premise behind communism...just how it has been practiced so far. And possibly the only way it can be practiced on a large scale.

I am completely against communism btw, I can just see beyond my biases to look at it rationally.
 
That is not the basic premise behind communism...just how it has been practiced so far. And possibly the only way it can be practiced on a large scale.

I am completely against communism btw, I can just see beyond my biases to look at it rationally.

That's the trouble with grand philosophies...the way they're implemented has too many variables. Ones that contain an all-knowing, all-powerful 'central government' tend to be failures.
 
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