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South Africa's Nelson Mandela dies in Johannesburg[W102]

j-mac said:
With this ^^^^post? You are correct...But, I would say that the attempt to point a finger of blame at house republican's on conference issues over the budget is not useful. The question is why won't demo's vote for their own leaders budget? hmmmm?
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I'm just saying that a thread like this is to be treated like a funeral. And this stuff wouldn't fly at such. Not trying to assign blame.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Yeah, folks... can we stay sort of halfway topical here, and halfway civil please? Thank you...
 
Hamster Buddha said:
I'm just saying that a thread like this is to be treated like a funeral. And this stuff wouldn't fly at such. Not trying to assign blame.
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No RIP tag. A thread meant for the respectful discussion of the passing of a public figure, and excluding blunt criticism of same, uses the "RIP" tag (chosen by the original poster) to indicate same.

The original poster chose not to invoke the RIP tag, therefore one assumes he wished to leave the thread open to criticism of Mandela from those who wish to do so.

:shrug:
 
Goshin said:
No RIP tag. A thread meant for the respectful discussion of the passing of a public figure, and excluding blunt criticism of same, uses the "RIP" tag (chosen by the original poster) to indicate same.

The original poster chose not to invoke the RIP tag, therefore one assumes he wished to leave the thread open to criticism of Mandela from those who wish to do so.

:shrug:
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Yeah, like I just sent with the message, I thought I was posting in the one with the RIP tag. My bad.
 
DiAnna said:
The hatefulness in this thread is... chilling. :(
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It's not hatefulness. It's mostly ignorance. Or very selective memory. Both sides are guilty of it. Mandela was not a perfect man, far from it. That is why it's so amazing that he evolved the way he did throughout his lifetime. He learned from his own mistakes as well as his supporters mistakes AND the mistakes of his enemies. In order to forgive others he first had to forgive himself. 27 years in prison gives you a lot of time to put things into perspective. He did. And boy did he do it right. The man should be judged by his actions all through his life, not just the f*ckups in his younger years and most certainly not by the actions of his misguided supporters. The stubborn ignorance is what's chilling. It perpetuates the very thing that Mandela eventually managed to overcome: resentment and the inability to forgive.
 
There are many men in history who have done both good and bad things. The larger the life of the man, the greater the good and bad. The American South still worships Robert E Lee, even though he commanded the confederate army. The truth is that the history of the world is written in blood, and I challenge you to find me a nation who has ever had power without having conflict. FDR authorized the Japanese American internment camps, Columbus enslaved the natives he encountered, and Andrew Carnegie built his empire with violence and force. But all of these men did enormous good for the world.

Look at America itself. Manifest destiny implied that we were superior and that fate willed us to expand and conquer, no matter how many Native Americans were relocated and killed. But are we a better world for it? I think we are a more advanced world. It's hard to wrap your head around.

My point is that Mandela did both good and bad, but I think it's hard to argue that he did more bad than good. I am saddened by his death and I think that it is impossible for those with strong opinions on the matter to be objective at this time.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Just don't compare him to Gandhi, they are night and day, worlds apart and when you say their names in the same breath you slander Gandhi.
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You're the one who brought up Gandhi in this thread, genius.
 
Inspirational and a truly remarkable man. Proof that ordinary people can do extraodinary things. He has become a symbol of what one can achieve with true dedication to a cause and the world is a poorer place as a result of his passing.
 
I would say the most remarkably stupid reaction to Mr. Mandela's death came from our favorite, Rick Santorum:

Rick Santorum compares Obamacare to apartheid in clumsy Mandela tribute | World news | theguardian.com

Mandela, he told Fox News within hours of the great man’s death, “was fighting against some great injustice. I would make the argument that we have a great injustice going on right now in this country with an ever-increasing size of government that is taking over and controlling people’s lives — and Obamacare is front and center in that.”
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sawyerloggingon said:
"Not as clean? Good lord man he was commander of a faction of the ANC that killed and maimed hundreds of civilians in a terrorism campaign.

"Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists."


3 Things You Didn
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You mention Johannesburg but your link conflates that with a general "many innocent people" however one 77 year old was killed at that 1964 bombing. Your estimate of "hundreds" isn't even agreed by the South African police which states that 130 were killed between 1976 and 1986.

You and your source overplay your hand very badly.

As for the word terrorist - the Apartheid government and the American government threw that term out once umKhonto we Sizwe took their first action against government installations which were a direct result of the Sharpeville massacre. Telling that you care more about denigrating Mandela throughout this thread than the government which he opposed and which failed to break him.

As for your earlier challenge to PeteEU about George Washington and the word "terrorist" - the term hadn't been invented yet so your challenge was a strawman nobody could ever face. First record of use of the word "terrorist" was 1796. Washington was born 1732 and died 3 years after the first use of the word terrorist - he was aged 67.

As for what he faced - the causes of the war of independence are many and some ignoble (such as the desire to expand into Indian areas and steal their land) whereas Mandela was fighting for the return of stolen lands and the murder of unarmed civilians.

Fisher said:
Thanks for admitting that he is not celebrated for what little he did. George Bush did not nuke Afghanistan. Are the liberals going to hold him up as the model human being when he dies?

As for Mandela, he would never have been in the position to do anything but for de Klerk, and no he couldn't have unleashed mass murder on whites. He would have been dead inside a week.
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Better to reply this outside the R.I.P thread which you were sullying. I made no mention of George Bush /liberals etc.
 
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Jetboogieman said:
Crime is a problem in South Africa and ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IS SAYING IT ISN'T.

Most of it is black on black crime in the Townships that are a direct result of apartheid.
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Not according to these:

"Since 1994, the end of the so-called Apartheid, whites ... especially white farmers, have been subject to extremely brutal and racist murders. About 50 people on average are murdered in South-Africa per day, of which at least 20 of them are whites (95+ % black on white murder rate). Please take into consideration that white people make up only 9% (4 500 000) of the demographics in South-Africa and therefore the white murder rate in South-Africa is quite significant. "

Genocide Watch - White Genocide in South Africa


"Afrikaner farmers are being exterminated at the genocidal annual rate of 313 per 100,000 inhabitants. Or, in the estimation of Dr. Gregory H. Stanton who heads "Genocide Watch," "four times as high as is for the rest of the population," making farming in South Africa the most dangerous occupation in the world. (Miners, by comparison, suffer 27.8 fatalities per 100,000 workers.)"

War On White South Africa | Ilana Mercer
 
danarhea said:
Who were the terrorists at that time? The government of South Africa, of course.
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danarhea said:
People do what they must. David ben Gurion bombed the King David Hotel in Tel-Aviv, and killed many, when the Jewish people were fighting for their homeland. And, as far as murdering civilians, the government of South Africa murdered thousands, and put many more in concentration camps. Mandela was fighting fire with fire.
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Yet Israel had no qualms about exporting arms to apartheid South Africa, and giving them access to technology that was denied to them by international boycotts.
 
people also criticize the shameless apartheid ?
Civilized west ,very civilized

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I didn't know how to cancel my original post which was even more irrelevant so I did the 5 character post I learned from others..
Kobie said:
A thread isn't a thread without the usual irrelevant talking points.
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I'm really getting spanked by the thread police today..
Ready to go pray for Mandela/Pearl Harbor and thank the Pope with my wife..Back in a few hours .
 
NIMBY said:
I didn't know how to cancel my original post which was even more irrelevant so I did the 5 character post I learned from others..

I'm really getting spanked by the thread police today..
Ready to go pray for Mandela/Pearl Harbor and thank the Pope with my wife..Back in a few hours .
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I was referring to the post you had quoted, not yours.
 
CRUE CAB said:
White man put him in jail. That is all people want to know. He will be Saint Nelson by the end of the week.
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Apartheid was a blight upon human history. The institutionalized dehumanization imposed by the white minority regime of South Africa was worse than segregation in the South and only slightly better than Nazi Germany. Anyone who could come out of that hell to forgive the fascists who inflicted it upon him certainly isn't a saint, but represents the best in all of us.
 
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