• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

US, Iran nuclear deal spurs bipartisan concern in Congress

Carter was president in the 90s? North Korea fired their nukes twice during W. Bush's presidency? Wow. I would love to know more about this alternate version of this thing called HISTORY. Do enlighten me.

He represented the United States in a 1994 negotiation with North Korea.

North Korea also tested a nuclear weapon in 2006, which became infamous for being a failure.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

I don't trust Israeli collection. We relied on Israel "collection" for Iraq. Israel for a better part of 6 years has said Iran was 1 year away from a Nuke. Also Israel is arming and training MEK which is a designated terrorist group to create a proxy war. So Israel's opinion means jack **** to me. They have a hard on to see Iran gone.

Actually our collection for Iraq was overwhelmingly US only and/or FIVE - EYES (US, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand), and the most egregious intel failures actually came from the Germans. So..... you may want to re-read that part. ;)

And do you think that person is still alive?

:shrug: you tell me - was there a string of successful apparent hits against Iranian nuclear scientists?

Because if there was, then it looks like we are dealing with a network with some definite survivability, which maintains the ability to support operations :).
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

American exceptionalism means many things, only one of which means a mission to spread its influence. Furthermore, regardless if they take exception to it, foreigners would be naive to think they too wouldn't succumb to the desires of spreading their influence and power. We all know they would act in similar ways, indeed, they have at one time or another. The fact that they are indignant now only suggests they are playing the part of the have-not. Once they become the have, their view of power will change accordingly.

American exceptionalism is all about Americans being up themselves, thinking they are superior to everyone else on earth.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

austrianecon said:
So? Who cares if North Korea or Iran have nukes?

I'm just going to repost something a bit dated that I had to write out the last time someone went full-libertarian on this topic:

cpwill said:
1. the Middle East remains a strategic center of gravity in the world for two major reasons: the oil and the shipping chokepoints, and huge chunks of the world economy are dependent on both of those. instability in the region threatens those two facets, thus threatening the world (and our) economy.

2. the Middle East is inherently unstable, as demonstrated by nothing better than recent events. Tyrannical governments keep their populace in line with the stick of the mukhaberat nd the carrot of the welfare state based on revenues generated from nationalized resources (read: oil and the Suez). But that rentier state carrot is intensely vulnerable to falling revenues and - as the Iranian Shah and Mubarak learned to their chagrin - can rapidly inspire revolution followed by replacement by radical (and themselves inherently destabilizing) elements. Internally, the Middle East is a bubbling cauldron, and the resources upon which much of the worlds' economy is based right there in the middle.

Internationally, among the Sunnis, Egypt and Saudi Arabia both consider themselves the natural leaders, and have already proven willing in Yemen to shoot at each other over that disagreement. The Iraqi's also consider themselves the natural leader of the Arab world, but lately they haven't been a serious contender. The Saudis are currently attempting to take control over the region through the exportation of Wahabism, which is itself inherently destabilizing, as it preaches the overthrow of the National-Socialist model governments left over from the 60's and 70's in Egypt (check) and Pakistan, (as well, obviously, as the democracy - as much as it exists - in Lebanon and in Israel) followed by the violent unification of the region under a single banner, followed by an invasion of the rest of the world. They aren't kidding about that part, and we are idiots if we fail to take them at their word, especially as they seem to have just succeeded in part A of step 1, the removal of the Mubarak regime.

The Iranians are the largest terror-exporting nation in the world, and they are very, very good at it. The IRGC, and in particular the Quds forces, have fostered the growth of Hezbollah (the real deadliest terrorist network in the world - Al Quada was their student, not the other way around), Hamas, and even (through proxies) Al Quada. They are currently waging a campaign to destroy the Lebanese government, and are strengthening ties with Syria and Turkey in an attempt to build a base with which to challenge the US and Saudi Arabia for dominance of the region, part of that struggle (they assume) including the destruction of Israel. The leadership of that nation Really Believes that the 13th Imam is coming soon, and that they must kick off international Jihad in order for him to arrive and bring about the End Times - and again, we are fools if we fail to take them at their word on that.

3. the region, thus, needs an overpowering, hegemon if it is to remain stable enough to ensure the non-collapse of the world economy. Someone has to impose order and keep these nutjobs from destroying the ability of the world to access the oil and the suez. There is only one nation currently on the planet with the capacity to perform this task: the US. The US Fifth Fleet, currently headquartered in Bahrain, is the major (and perhaps only realistic) force for stability in that region, contending with numerous, powerful forces for instability.

4. Withdrawal or severe downdrawl of US Forces would create a power vacuum and kick off fights within the sunni community and between Iran and Saudi Arabia for regional dominance. Shiite Iran is seeking to get nukes. Syria has had a nuclear facility already destroyed by the Israelis. Sunni Pakistan (see: Wahhabi plans for governments, the overthrow and replacement of) already has them. In the face of a US Withdrawal, Saudi Arabia certainly would start developing her own.

Imagine a Mexican standoff, except that 3 of the 4 players are A) paranoid schizophrenics facing opponents they violently hate, B) convinced that death will be a net benefit for them, C) convinced that their souls are in peril if they don't shoot, and D) potentially armed with nukes (the 4th Player is the unfortunately-located Israel). I think everyone here can agree that that is not a "stable" situation, particularly when you add in E) these countries are not internally stable, but may feel forced into an external war in order to solidify internal support and F) at least two of the players (Iran and Saudi Arabia) are held hostage by their own extremists, who feel free to act without permission, are nearly impossible to stop, and are most desirous of the conflict. And I feel that A) deserves rementioning.

FUN FACTS WORTH NOTING: China (also nuclear) is rapidly becoming a good, good friend of Iran, and is semi-distancing itself from Pakistan (whom it largely views as a foil against India). China is also heavily invested in East Africa. It is possible that China would seek to intervene in the region to tilt the balance in Iran's favor as the US did in Saudi Arabia's. If that happens, then the newly Taliban (and nuclear!) Pakistan - which is deeply paranoid, xenophobic, and a wierd mixture of Wahhabist and neo-Deobandi - becomes an ally of Saudi Arabia, and our players are all now holding two pistols even as their inner demons scream at them to shoot first. BEST CASE SCENARIO here is that China is able to stabilize (kinda) the region, and merely takes all the oil for itself - only partially collapsing the world economy. but that's the "best" case, not the "most likely" one. it's not even really a "sorta likely" or a "semi likely" one...
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

ctd...

...

5. The West is dying. Literally - our creation of an entitlement culture and our devotion to materialism have left us with birthrates below replacement level. In both Europe and America the solution has been mass immigration - but both have had issues with assimilation. America here is comparatively lucky, her immigrants share many of her cultural assumptions. But Europe is not - the West in Europe is being replaced by a high-birthrate Islamic culture which does not accept the Enlightenment. As the immigrant populations threaten to break the local safety nets and culture, the backlash they provoke isn't what we would recognize as classic liberalism, but rather classic fascism. Nationalist groups are springing up all over Europe, though they are doomed by their own inability to breed to dying out after sparking conflict. All those aspects of the West that we consider dear; the rights of the individual, limited, secular government, free markets... they are doomed to wither and die as the culture that upholds them does.



The situation at current cannot sustain indefinitely - eventually the destabilizing elements that are currently inherent in the Middle East will win, and the price of loss is not just a world wide economic collapse, but the slide, decline, and perhaps fall of the West. The long-term solution is therefore to change the rules of the game. The destabilizing elements in the Middle East must be replaced with stabilizing ones. Tyrannies must (carefully) be replaced with representative governments that give public pressure an outlet other than violent overthrow. Rentier societies that encourage stagnation, revolution, and hostility abroad must be replaced with market economies that encourage trade, growth, and a politically active middle class with a vested interest in stability. Radical Islam must be replaced with a new ideology that allows Muslims to recoup their pride and independence without striking at others. In short, we need to allow the Enlightenment to do to Islam what it has done to Christianity.

Even with our presence, US pursual of that strategy (again, as we see today) is not guaranteed, and even with US pursual of that strategy, sucess is not any kind of certain.... but if the US withdraws before these things are accomplished (or, at least, accomplished enough to become self-feeding cycles), then the game is up. the match is struck. Europe falls, China moves to become hegemon, nukes possibly fly, and back to the Dark Ages we go, but this time with much, much better weapons with which to massacre each other in the name of God.

In the short run, a world without a global US presence is merely one in which Iran, India, China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt all compete against each other for control over the worlds' critical choke points, turning our current global system into a series of mercantilist blocs, and causing economic meltdown here in the United States. In the long run, a world without a global US presence is a much, much, much uglier place. But hey, if you have evidence that the CCP or the Muslim Brotherhood leadership isn't a bunch of Nationalist Corporatist/Islamists willing to sacrifice nigh on anything to retain power, and is in fact a bunch of misunderstood liberal, free-traders who stay up late at nights reading Locke, I'd be glad to see it.

This was pre-Bro-Hood counter-coup, naturally, but the basic drivers are still all there. Avoiding that endgame is the goal. As Hitchens put it, when the US isn't involved, it doesn't mean nothing happens, it means something else happens.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

So how do the last oh, say 20 posts have anything to do with Kerry channeling Neville Chamberlain?
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

American exceptionalism is all about Americans being up themselves, thinking they are superior to everyone else on earth.

Only part of it. It mostly means a unique experience, for better or for worse. If you want to say we are more arrogant than most, that feeds into exceptionalism, because we would be more unique.

However, much of this has to do with things that most countries promote about themselves. In a small way, Obama was right when he said, "Just as I am sure (insert country) believes in a (insert same country) exceptionalism."
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

Yeah, in 6 months they've got a shiny new nuke even though we already know where every centrifuge is, how much uranium they have, how much they can produce, etc. But just in this case, and only in this case, they would be able to some how develop a nuke with us having no friggin clue it happened.......only in neocon world does that happen.

Yeah, and we were also still able to use blow up tanks and boats to fool the enemy into thinking we were going to conduct assaults. We were also still using birds to detect chemical attacks. We were also using bolt action rifles. This isn't 1939 man. Countries don't just develop nukes without someone seeing it.

We did it, the Russians did it, the Chinese did it, the Nokos did it. Hell, the Russians marched 130 thousand troops into Afghanistan and we never noticed and we couldn't stop 19 jackoffs from killing 3 thousand Americans. You of all people should realuze that nothing is fail proof.
 
Carter was president in the 90s? North Korea fired their nukes twice during W. Bush's presidency? Wow. I would love to know more about this alternate version of this thing called HISTORY. Do enlighten me.


Please do jut a bit of research before showing up in a forum and making a fool out of yourself.

Carter met with the NK government in the mid 90's and made a really stupid deal that of-course, the North Koreans welched on.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

Israel can take care of themselves as they have demonstrated before. In addition, Israel should not dictate our foreign policy. Yes, they should be heavily considered, but they shouldn't dictate it. However, this deal (if it goes the way it's supposed to) will assure Israel that they are safe from a nuclear Iran. It's not like this is a permanent thing. It's a 6 month deal.

HUH ? The safety of our foreign allies shouldn't dictate our FOREIGN policy ? Well then what exactly SHOULD dictate our FOREIGN policy ? Why do we need a FOREIGN policy in the first place again ?? And Israel is currently sitting in firing range of a neighbor that's vowed to drive it in the ocean. You think IRAN's lies ensures it's safety ?

If you think we're anywhere close to an all out Middle Eastern war, YOU'RE sadly misinformed. That, or worry mongering.

Israel strikes out, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Turkey team up and strike Israel, we get involved, because we've pretty much sworn to protect them, Russia gets involved...and so on.

So you believe that Israel's answer to Iranian possession of nukes would be to launch nukes? Doubtful. Israel knows, just like every other country on this Earth, that launching nukes does nothing but initiate WWIII. Israel doesn't want that any more than we do.

*sigh*....Not every nuke is a 40 megaton fusion weapon. The weapons WE SENT them are specifically purpose designed to penetrate hundreds of feet below the surface and yes, they are nuclear tipped. Look em up...



I don't remember you telling me anything.......anyway, I agree Iran is not trustworthy. However, it's worth a shot to give them the chance to fall on their sword. It's a win win situation for us. 6 months is not enough time for them to develop any sort of weapon therefore we are giving them the rope to hang themselves with. They can either play ball and submit to inspections or they can do what they normally do and totally reinforce our position of heavy sanctions. We lose nothing in those scenarios. If you've got some alternative to those two possible courses of action, I'd like to hear it.


It's worth a shot to make a dumb decision that allows IRAN to get back on their feet while they continue with the construction of nuke ? Because that's what happened in North Korea. A poverty ridden isolated Communist Country that managed to lie its way to a successful atomic detonation in 2006.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

Only part of it. It mostly means a unique experience, for better or for worse. If you want to say we are more arrogant than most, that feeds into exceptionalism, because we would be more unique.

However, much of this has to do with things that most countries promote about themselves. In a small way, Obama was right when he said, "Just as I am sure (insert country) believes in a (insert same country) exceptionalism."

The MIC's gofer and phony liberal Darat O'Bomber is as big-headed an exceptionalist as anyone else up there.
 
Last edited:
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

The bit that makes me angry about American Exceptionalism is where it comes from, the stinking abrahamic religions that are the main causes for all the world's war and strife.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

That's right, because no other nation was involved in this deal, and keeping Iranian nukes under control is bad. Keep trying. :)

Ive got a bridge to sell you son. Canada's cool with it too, so its all good.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

Yeah, in 6 months they've got a shiny new nuke even though we already know where every centrifuge is, how much uranium they have, how much they can produce, etc. But just in this case, and only in this case, they would be able to some how develop a nuke with us having no friggin clue it happened.......only in neocon world does that happen.

Yeah, and we were also still able to use blow up tanks and boats to fool the enemy into thinking we were going to conduct assaults. We were also still using birds to detect chemical attacks. We were also using bolt action rifles. This isn't 1939 man. Countries don't just develop nukes without someone seeing it.

You are missing the point, they have 15+ possible build locations, all hidden well within the interior and with extensive defenses and some deep under ground. Yes, we have some tools to detect this, but its not a guarantee. Were you in the military?
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

To summarize, you mean American Exceptionalism, aka arrogant narcissism, which btw is why so many people take exception to Americans.

The US is indeed exceptional, unlike any nation ever on earth. Economically, Scientifically, Militarily, Culturally. A mindset different from anywhere else. An nation of minorities. And we aren't just a country, we are an idea buddy-in fact America goes where American's go.

Australia is Britains scrotum, pal.
 
He represented the United States in a 1994 negotiation with North Korea.

North Korea also tested a nuclear weapon in 2006, which became infamous for being a failure.

A failure? What do you think the intent of that test was?
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

Both are self hating evil appeasers. Evil can't be appeased.

No no no - this time it's sure to work! Why? Because Obama!
 
A failure? What do you think the intent of that test was?

A much greater yield, albeit, I admit there is some amount of speculation on that.
 
Last edited:
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

No, not even religious. I just dont hate on people who have faith, or those who dont.

If you really love, worship, and want to emulate something that is the epitome of evil, how can you not be evil too? OTOH if you pretend to love this evil it is quite a different matter.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

If you really love, worship, and want to emulate something that is the epitome of evil, how can you not be evil too? OTOH if you pretend to love this evil it is quite a different matter.

What evil? The US didn't start that war, and it ethically and morally ended it. Be honest-nothing the US could have or did do is good enough to you. I wonder what countries you respect.

Tangentially how does a man get to be your age and hate like that? Im guessing there is no mrs around. Its not good for you-I practice medicine-take my advice.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

The US is indeed exceptional, unlike any nation ever on earth. Economically, Scientifically, Militarily, Culturally. A mindset different from anywhere else. An nation of minorities. And we aren't just a country, we are an idea buddy-in fact America goes where American's go.

Australia is Britains scrotum, pal.
if you say so! (Let me know if you hear from a moderator over this willya?)
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

What evil? The US didn't start that war, and it ethically and morally ended it. Be honest-nothing the US could have or did do is good enough to you. I wonder what countries you respect.

Tangentially how does a man get to be your age and hate like that? Im guessing there is no mrs around. Its not good for you-I practice medicine-take my advice.
Who was talking about America? :roll::roll:
 
Back
Top Bottom