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Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

RabidAlpaca said:
Getting a 270 on the APFT is the minimum in the 173rd (90 pts above the Army minimum). Superstars should be 290+ or 300+. The excuse however that women can't do pullups is ridiculous, as my wife is a pullup beast.
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:shrug: you need 20 dead-hang (no kipping) to get a max for the USMC PFT. And a three-mile run in 18:00. The run is the biggest thing that costs people their max.

Nobody can be that ignorant.
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You can argue that some jobs aren't as physical but when were talking combat arms thats different.

I started my career off as a 17 year old 11B Infantryman.

Its not a lifestyle that even all men are suited for and many who do will do it for a couple of years and get out or reclass.

I remember the wash out rate in Airborne and AirAssault schools for women were very high and these were schools my battle buddies and I considered easy.

I just don't see being able to point out a handful of women that might make it as justification to change everything to make civilians feel better about themselves.
 
Paratrooper said:
You can argue that some jobs aren't as physical but when were talking combat arms thats different.

I started my career off as a 17 year old 11B Infantryman.

Its not a lifestyle that even all men are suited for and many who do will do it for a couple of years and get out or reclass.

I remember the wash out rate in Airborne and AirAssault schools for women were very high and these were schools my battle buddies and I considered easy.

I just don't see being able to point out a handful of women that might make it as justification to change everything to make civilians feel better about themselves.
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I just want to say, thanks for being one of the worlds elite warriors!
 
digsbe said:
Should I, as an asthmatic, be allowed to fight in infantry? No, my medical condition would put fellow soldiers at risk. If you are a detriment to the military (which females that cannot perform at a male level or need would be) then you are better left not joining, you weigh down the military and put others at risk. Do I think there should be opportunities to serve? Sure, in non-combat areas.
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No, you are not medically qualified, UNLESS you offered a unique intellectual skill or knowledge and then you should be.

This thread should be just called the male-sexist-ranting-of-their-superiority thread.

In fact, women are superior to men in many regards, including related to combat. Here are examples:

1. Women are inherently smarter than men.
Women hold higher brain than men in reasoning and thinking | International Reporter
Women are scientifically considered exceptionally better at talking than men. It is because the females are supposed to have higher brain levels than the male gender.

The scientists also consider that the women have a special “language protein” called Foxp2 which plays an important role in language development, as per the new research.

The research has its reasons why women are superior in talking than men; the women can also talk nearly three times more than men comfortably without any fatigue.


2. Women are linguistically more skilled. (link above)
Since foreign deployments involve interacting with foreign nationals, women would be a superior occupation force and superior at interrogations.

3. Women are better snipers due to having superior patience (link previously provided and proven in the Russian military in WWII

4. Women have a higher threshold of pain. A male soldier would be disabled by pain quicker than a woman, making the male soldier less viable. A man soldier also would more surrender to pain and be more broken if captured in interrogation.
Why Women Are the Superior Gender | Psychology Today

5. Women require less food, meaning require less support and supply. (same link)

6. Women have higher social intelligence. (same link)

7. Also, having two X chromosomes provides a huge health advantage. This reduces their medical costs during and after service, allowing more military funding per soldier. (same link)

Actually, I could go on probably for a couple of pages. However, I think the premise men here are making is that if there is ONE shortcoming of a gender, that gender should be banned.

Accordingly, in that reasoning, men should no longer be allowed in the military or in combat roles due to their numerous inferiorities to men.

Now you men can keep on with your furious claim that you are superior. You aren't, but try to keep your dignity as having been or are low rankers in the military. :roll:


I
 
joko104 said:
No, you are not medically qualified, UNLESS you offered a unique intellectual skill or knowledge and then you should be.

This thread should be just called the male-sexist-ranting-of-their-superiority thread.

In fact, women are superior to men in many regards, including related to combat. Here are examples:

1. Women are inherently smarter than men.
Women hold higher brain than men in reasoning and thinking | International Reporter
Women are scientifically considered exceptionally better at talking than men. It is because the females are supposed to have higher brain levels than the male gender.

The scientists also consider that the women have a special “language protein” called Foxp2 which plays an important role in language development, as per the new research.

The research has its reasons why women are superior in talking than men; the women can also talk nearly three times more than men comfortably without any fatigue.


2. Women are linguistically more skilled. (link above)
Since foreign deployments involve interacting with foreign nationals, women would be a superior occupation force and superior at interrogations.

3. Women are better snipers due to having superior patience (link previously provided and proven in the Russian military in WWII

4. Women have a higher threshold of pain. A male soldier would be disabled by pain quicker than a woman, making the male soldier less viable. A man soldier also would more surrender to pain and be more broken if captured in interrogation.
Why Women Are the Superior Gender | Psychology Today

5. Women require less food, meaning require less support and supply. (same link)

6. Women have higher social intelligence. (same link)

7. Also, having two X chromosomes provides a huge health advantage. This reduces their medical costs during and after service, allowing more military funding per soldier. (same link)

Actually, I could go on probably for a couple of pages. However, I think the premise men here are making is that if there is ONE shortcoming of a gender, that gender should be banned.

Accordingly, in that reasoning, men should no longer be allowed in the military or in combat roles due to their numerous inferiorities to men.

Now you men can keep on with your furious claim that you are superior. You aren't, but try to keep your dignity as having been or are low rankers in the military. :roll:


I
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Your sexist rant doesn't change the reality of the situation. All in all-women can't compete physically. This is simply FACT.

Stop justifying putting those less qualified into a position they didn't earn-because of your political bias.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
^^ This was really the only reason I opposed women in the infantry. The standards for women have always been a fraction of what they are for men, and now those substandard performers can make it into the infantry.

If you're a woman who wants to be in the infantry, you need to be prepared to pass the same physical and mental standards that the men do, plain and simple. A team is only as strong as their weakest link, and these 3 women seem to be those weak links.
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No ****. I remember doing CLS in Carol. Last day of the course, we had to be in full battle rattle, drag the "injured" Soldier to cover and administer initial aid. After the second iteration, we had to remove the IBA because the female Soldiers couldn't perform as expected. That's not even infantry, we were mechanics. Female soldiers get coddled way too much, while males do the brunt of the physical work so pencil pushers can fudge the numbers, with the unintended concequence of creating resentments that threaten unit cohesion. I've met three female soldiers who were worth a damn, and they were excellent soldiers. The others were worthless princesses who had no business being anything but cashiers or greeters. A bunch of them seem to enlist simply to hook up with a soldier, get hitched, and get themselves knocked up for the free chapter and housing paid for by the Army. I imagine there's a lot of that in the Marines, too.
 
Surtr said:
No ****. I remember doing CLS in Carol. Last day of the course, we had to be in full battle rattle, drag the "injured" Soldier to cover and administer initial aid. After the second iteration, we had to remove the IBA because the female Soldiers couldn't perform as expected. That's not even infantry, we were mechanics. Female soldiers get coddled way too much, while males do the brunt of the physical work so pencil pushers can fudge the numbers, with the unintended concequence of creating resentments that threaten unit cohesion. I've met three female soldiers who were worth a damn, and they were excellent soldiers. The others were worthless princesses who had no business being anything but cashiers or greeters. A bunch of them seem to enlist simply to hook up with a soldier, get hitched, and get themselves knocked up for the free chapter and housing paid for by the Army. I imagine there's a lot of that in the Marines, too.
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It happens in EMS as well. Strength matters. Some would have us believe that is no longer the case.

Because they are required to comply to the Commander in Cheif-leftists love implementing social policy through the military. Its just not cool.
 
Paratrooper said:
As a 34 year old male this is my standard vs a female the same age.
These are the minimums for a passing score
Pushups (male)-36 (female) 15
Situps (male)-42 (female) 42
2mile run (male)-17:42 (female) 21:42

So as you can see a 34 year old male has to do 21 more pushups and run two miles four minutes faster than a female to pass.

A female meeting the minimum standards for a male would get a score of 240 while the male would only get a 180.

Thats a considerable difference.
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Again, for the umpteenth time, that is NOT the point I'm arguing here. I've stated NUMEROUS times now that I think the women should have to meet the same qualifications as the men.

EVEN THOUGH I've acknowledged that point several times now, many here STILL can't seem to grasp that others don't care if the women can meet the physical requirement standards.

The simple fact that they are WOMEN is enough apparently for some to keep them OUT of the military because they are to be blamed for men's lack of control. This is reminiscent of making women wear burkas because men cannot control themselves. IT is utterly ridiculous.
 
cpwill said:
Why do you continue to insist that everyone in this thread that actually knows what they are talking about is obviously either insane, or making it up? Do you really credit us so lowly that we are incapable of accurately describing our experience?
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First of all, I didn't say that HE was insane. I said that post and way of looking at the issue is insane. WOMEN are not going to be the detriment to the entire military. That is pure hyperbole.

If you guys cannot control yourselves around women, then that is YOUR problem and NOT the women's fault.
 
cpwill said:
Their want is irrelevant. The Needs of the Military are what control personnel assignment, and the primary objective is Mission Accomplishment, not Everyone Feels Happy About Their Opportunities.
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No it is not irrelevant. Women are people and human beings with wants and desires every bit as much as men are. If a woman wants to help by contributing her time and risking her life to protect her country, then who the hell are YOU to say she cannot? Just because you get horny? Give me a break! :doh
 
US Conservative said:
It happens in EMS as well. Strength matters. Some would have us believe that is no longer the case.
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I can imagine. Every first responder should have to meet strict physical fitness requirements. I know some folks will catch a case of feelings about it, but lives are more important than pleasing oversensitive knuckleheads.

Because they are required to comply to the Commander in Cheif-leftists love implementing social policy through the military. Its just not cool.
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I'll just call it what it is: Conditioning. These days, service members spend more and more time sitting in classes telling you not to rape, not to make gays uncomfortable, not to sleep with a woman if she had even one drink (which is considered rape because apparently a single drink inhibits their ability to make a concious choice), and the list goes on. We sat through more or that crap than presentations on how to actually do our jobs better, and their only purpose was to use fear and intimidation through threat of UCMJ action to enforce "desireable" behavior.
 
ChrisL said:
So what? It shows that there are women out there who are suited to go to war and some that actually WANT to, believe it or not.
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In all female units.
 
apdst said:
In all female units.
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This is so ridiculous. Maybe you should do some research on Israel's IDF. THEY don't seem to have these issues with women being members of the military.
 
More women soldiers seeking to serve in combat units, IDF says | JPost | Israel News

“We’re seeing growing numbers of women in combat roles compared to last year. There are more women interested in significant service in the IDF as combat soldiers,” said Brig.-Gen. Raheli Tavat-Vizel, who advises the chief of staff on women’s affairs in the military.

An IDF spokeswoman said figures for women serving in combat roles in 2013 were not yet available to the media, but figures for previous years showed a clear rise between 2006 and 2012.

As of last year, 58.9% of the Caracal infantry unit, stationed on the border with Egypt, was made up of women, and 10% of Artillery Corps soldiers were women. The Border Police consisted of 6.3% women members.

Tavat-Vizel said that female soldiers serving in units such as those operating Iron Dome anti-rocket batteries and in Caracal have all expressed high satisfaction with their service.

“The commanders of these units, and the commanders of the arenas, are very satisfied with the service of the female soldiers. They are treated like their male counterparts, as we would expect,” Tavat-Vizel added.

An effort is being made to recruit religious female soldiers too, she said.

Tavat-Vizel’s office is working to ensure women soldiers are treated equally and promoted on an equal basis. These efforts resulted in a recent decision by the IDF to shorten the service time of male soldiers to two years eight months and lengthen the service time of women to two years and four months, beginning in July 2015.

“When the women serve for as long as the men, we’ll be able to cancel the volunteer procedure for [female] combat roles and turn this into a normal recruitment target,” Tavat- Vizel explained.

In recent days, a conference was held in Tel Aviv to encourage the enlistment of women to combat roles.

Organized by Tavat-Vizel’s office, the conference featured a variety of women soldiers and officers who spoke to younger women about to enlist in the military.

“We gathered a group of quality women who are interested in combat and made available the information they needed,” Tavat-Vizel said.
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ChrisL said:
This is so ridiculous. Maybe you should do some research on Israel's IDF. THEY don't seem to have these issues with women being members of the military.
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The IDF is a female military high tech computer corps. I don't believe they are sent into combat situations.

Greetings, ChrisL. :2wave:
 
polgara said:
The IDF is a female military high tech computer corps. I don't believe they are sent into combat situations.

Greetings, ChrisL. :2wave:
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Greetings polgara! :)

Sorry but you would be wrong. You should read the post.

From the link I posted above: “When the women serve for as long as the men, we’ll be able to cancel the volunteer procedure for [female] combat roles and turn this into a normal recruitment target,” Tavat- Vizel explained.
 
ChrisL said:
Greetings polgara! :)

Sorry but you would be wrong. You should read the post.

From the link I posted above: “When the women serve for as long as the men, we’ll be able to cancel the volunteer procedure for [female] combat roles and turn this into a normal recruitment target,” Tavat- Vizel explained.[/QUOT

I am familiar with the IDF. So far, it appears that Israel is in the process of evaluating expanding the role of women beyond serving as military police. It's not clear to me if they serve alongside the men, or if it is an all-female group doing the same type of work as the men. Do you know?
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Just a general FYI regarding the combat roles of women in the IDF.

Caracal Battalion - although is considered to be a combat battalion, it is not being regarded on the level of the other infantry battalions Zanhanim, Golani, Givaty, and I'm not even talking about the special units inside these battalions.
That is the reason why for most of its history the Caracal battalion was kept on the southern border with Egypt - that was always considered to be the quietest.
They do all the things together with the boys (or better to say that the boys do all the things with them), but they sleep and live in separate quarters.

Artillery - Girls take part in the MLRS battalion, Nurit unit, and in some "special" units like the ones that operate drones, etc. Not actually doing any combat.

Magav - Border police - girls again are considered to be combat soldiers, though one of the main aims of that unit isn't to engage in direct combat with enemy forces, but to provide security, in various regions of the WB and Jerusalem.

Field Intelligence Gathering units - girls are considered as combat soldiers, but aren't allowed to join the on foot teams - girls can only join motorized teams.

Dog trainers and operators - girls are considered as combat soldiers, do all the training and all. But aren't allowed to join combat missions, or missions with special units.

There are some others but they usually do even less than these.

EDIT: Btw there are problems which arise as a result of the boy/girl mixture in these units and others... ranging from rapes, fights, to couples fighting...etc.

Fallen.
 
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Fallenangel said:
Just a general FYI regarding the combat roles of women in the IDF.

Caracal Battalion - although is considered to be a combat battalion, it is not being regarded on the level of the other infantry battalions Zanhanim, Golani, Givaty, and I'm not even talking about the special units inside these battalions.
That is the reason why for most of its history the Caracal battalion was kept on the southern border with Egypt - that was always considered to be the quietest.

Artillery - Girls take part in the MLRS battalion, Nurit unit, and in some "special" units like the ones that operate drones, etc. Not actually doing any combat.

Magav - Border police - girls again are considered to be combat soldiers, though one of the main aims of that unit isn't to engage in direct combat with enemy forces, but to provide security, in various regions of the WB and Jerusalem.

Field Intelligence Gathering units - girls are considered as combat soldiers, but aren't allowed to join the on foot teams - girls can only join motorized teams.

Dog trainers and operators - girls are considered as combat soldiers, do all the training and all. But aren't allowed to join combat missions, or missions with special units.

There are some others but they usually do even less than these.

Fallen.
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Link please.
 
Here's an interesting link I found regarding women in Israel and combat service.

Israeli Army Women | Service Options

Female Combat Options


TOTCHANIM

Females are integrated into service in the artillery alignment in various combat and command positions in many fields, such as command posts over advanced operational and attack systems, management and calculation of artillery fire, operation of communication devices, and conducting meteorologist case studies to improve artillery fire accuracy, etc. They serve in combat units and complete advanced training, at the end of which they are integrated into continuous security operations across Israel. The female combatants commit themselves to 36 month mandatory military service, as well as to reserve duty.

KARAKAL

Karakal is a special battalion (gdud) inside the realm of Chir that is comprised of both women and men, both of which do all of the training together and exercises/guarding which is required. It is a unit that is full capacity combat and mainly is stationed in the south at the Egyptian border and the Jordanian border. Women need to posses an 82 profiles (Men 72) and pass Gibbush Lochemot (Women Fighters Tryout) in order to be accepted into Karakal. To find out when the gibbushim are, please look at Gibbushim Dates.

OKETZ

This is a sayaret of the Kfir Brigade. For women, they must first pass Gibbush Lochemot (Female Fighter Tryout) in order to be a fighter. If a woman passes the Gibbush, she is placed Karakal (which is a faction of the Kfir Brigade). Once starting tironut in Karakal, there is a Gibbush (Tryout) within the unit in order to be accepted to Oketz.

Men need to be drafted into Kfir, and then do the Gibbush for Oketz. If they pass the Gibbush men are placed into Oketz. If they do not pass, then they continue as a combat soldier in Kfir.
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Fallenangel said:
What exactly in your link doesn't agree with what I posted?

Fallen.
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:roll: Read. It clearly states that women ARE in combat units along with the men. Right now it is on a voluntary basis, but they plan on making it mandatory.
 
ChrisL said:
:roll: Read. It clearly states that women ARE in combat units along with the men. Right now it is on a voluntary basis, but they plan on making it mandatory.
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And as I already said, except the Caracal battalion these aren't really combat units.

Fallen.
 
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