Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges[W:287]

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

AGENT J said:

all meaningless with out further evidence
the belief has to be reasonable

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Reasonable yes, but that is not for us to decide. That is for the prosecutor to prove that his belief of threat was 'unreasonable'

banging could also mean they were simply trying to wake sleeping person lol
there is nothing factually about banging that relates to waiting in or breaking in, that is all speculation and without further evidence rendered completely meaningless

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That's your opinion, and you are not the arbiter.

banging is absolutely meaningless without further evidence, dents in the door, evidence of attempted forced entry etc which there were none

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The level of noise caused by the banging would be hard to prove through anything other than the homeowners testimony. Are you saying that unless the young woman tried to force the door open, or dented it somehow, that the banging wasn't loud within the dwelling? Because that would also be nothing but your own opinion.

also its either a dark neighborhood and he couldn't see or he could see so well he knew what she looked like and could GUESS at her state of mind it cant be both, just saying. Not implying you said its both just pointing out those would totally contradict eachother in a trial.

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Again your opinion. It absolutely can be dark enough to not see clearly. In any case this is for the prosecutor to prove....The burden is on her.

then theres his statement of it was an accident, its a factor
the major factor that probably makes some type of conviction almost a lock is shooting through a locked door, thats going to be huge

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It will be interesting to see how this plays out....Just remember, the homeowner is innocent until proven guilty....Let me repeat....Innocent until proven guilty.

the fact remains without further evidence, his thoughts will have zero support in logic, facts and reality

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No, I have already shown you the statute where his hurdle is rather low in that regard....The burden of proof is on the prosecution.

there isnt credence without factual or rational evidence

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Your opinion.

if there was evidence of forced or attempted forced entry then yes, without it, nope.

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We shall see. But this is still your opinion.

as for your question for Murder 2

IMO its too much and Im guessing its being used to deal and nothign more thats why the multiple charges and not a single charge

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I agree, unless we hear more about his intent, then Murder 2 is out the window.

Manslaughter seems like a lock with all the facts we currently know

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Your opinion.

his mind isnt any hurdle at all it has to be reasonable and there has to be evidence to support it, it always has to be reasonable with support from evidence and reality.

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Your opinion..

Now, there seems to be a lot in your post here that points to you touting yourself as some kind of final authority or something. Also, you seem to be approaching it as though the homeowner has to prove himself innocent...That's backwards. The burden of proof is on the state here. You should bear that in mind, especially with the Zimmerman trial so fresh and so many, (including you I believe) were so sure, and smug about it that Z was guilty, yet a jury acquitted him of charges there...So, I wouldn't be so quick to be spouting off as though you know something everyone else doesn't....

Now, I don't know if the man will be found guilty of any, or all of the charges, or innocent of them, but let's at least approach this like it should be, and that is innocent until proven guilty...That shouldn't be controversial....

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

joko104 said:

We do not know if the screen door was locked or even if she was opening it and coming right into his face when he opened the door - finding a bloody crazied person coming at you at 3.40 am is a life threatening situation. This video of another thread shows just how fast a person can be knocked down and out - and if in your home alone you then easily killed thereafter:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/law-a...ut-game__blacks-attack-whites-simply-fun.html

At this point, the most critical evidence we do not know is 1.) was the screen door unlocked? 2.) does he say she was opening the screen door?, 3.) was she beating on the screen door or the inner door and 4.) is her dna and/or prints on the screen door and/or inner door handle?

If his statement is that she was opening the screen door and this not contradicted by evidence, he has a very good chance of a not guilty verdict.

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Good post, and I would have to say that we are doing a lot of speculating at this point....We shall see though, that's for sure...Just remember, as I know you know, and as I am trying to tell J, the burden of proof is on the state, and jury's are unpredictable...In most cases I would say that they are loathed to throw the book at a homeowner that was startled in the middle of the night, but a person that was drunk, high, and was already acting irrationally (leaving the scene of an accident)...But we will have to see.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Tettsuo said:

IMO we do. There's no evidence of attempted force entry and the screen door was locked. The man was in no danger at all.

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What matters...and must be proven...is if he BELIEVED he was in danger. A screen door is no protection from anything. Even a drunken crazed women can get thru it. He had no idea if she was armed, why she was acting crazy, why she chose his porch, what her intent was. Have you ever been awoken in the middle of the night by a possible intruder in your home? It's scary and disorienting and you are focused on protecting yourself. Real survival is at all costs....that is the way the mind often works.

Do we even know if he had a porch light or other light on to see the threat better? I mean, imagine that in the dark.

danarhea said:

Manslaughter, yes, but murder? I just don't see it. Murder has to involve malice, and I don't see malice here. I do see manslaugher, but murder charges are ridiculous. What does everybody else think?

Article is here.

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What are they not telling us? What was she really acting like?

Not enough real information to make a decision one way or the other.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Excon said:

:laughat:Still batting zero huh?
You say no facts provided. Why you continue being dishonest is beyond me.
Fact - He heard banging.
Fact - He believed someone was trying to break-in. His belief is supported by the banging he heard.

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Those are claims, not facts. We only have his word.

His defense will need to either convince the jury he is not lying, or point out evidence that supports his claim.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Excon said:

You clearly have failed.
Facts have already been given.
Nor do you have any idea of how the legal system works.
His statements are facts.

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Statements are not facts.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Lursa said:

What matters...and must be proven...is if he BELIEVED he was in danger. A screen door is no protection from anything. Even a drunken crazed women can get thru it. He had no idea if she was armed, why she was acting crazy, why she chose his porch, what her intent was. Have you ever been awoken in the middle of the night by a possible intruder in your home? It's scary and disorienting and you are focused on protecting yourself. Real survival is at all costs....that is the way the mind often works.

Do we even know if he had a porch light or other light on to see the threat better? I mean, imagine that in the dark.

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All he has to do is state that he reasonably felt in danger, the state then has the burden.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

The Mark said:

Statements are not facts.

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So Excon sent me a PM in response to this (I think). However he is not accepting PM's, so...

My response to his PM (which I am not posting):

I personally view facts as something which has been proven true beyond reasonable doubt.
I view statements someone makes as claims/statements/opinions. These can be recorded and used as evidence, but what they truly mean is dependent on context, intent, and opinion of listener (to varying degrees). Thus I do not consider them worth as much as facts.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

j-mac said:

All he has to do is state that he reasonably felt in danger, the state then has the burden.

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It's not quite that simple....when the state starts to introduce that he shot thru a door, she was an 'innocent car accident victim', she had no visible weapons, etc etc etc.

I don't know what the state will introduce and I don't know if any of those things are true...but that doesn't even matter on some points...'innocent car victim' is subjective but plays very well with some juries, if it gets to a jury. Not to mention that guilty or not....he may have to pay ALL his own court and lawyer costs. Depends on the state.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

The Mark said:

So Excon sent me a PM in response to this (I think). However he is not accepting PM's, so...

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Wait a minute!!

You're saying the Excon sends PM's but doesn't accept them?

That's pretty cowardly

:lamo

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

The Mark said:

So Excon sent me a PM in response to this (I think). However he is not accepting PM's, so...

My response to his PM (which I am not posting):

I personally view facts as something which has been proven true beyond reasonable doubt.
I view statements someone makes as claims/statements/opinions. These can be recorded and used as evidence, but what they truly mean is dependent on context, intent, and opinion of listener (to varying degrees). Thus I do not consider them worth as much as facts.

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Ok. That's your opinion. All that matters though is what the state can prove, and what a jury believes.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Leo said:

Except perhaps, someone knocking loudly or banging on your door? Jemmying a door, and knocking loudly tend to indicate different intent - hence my question.

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Not a lot of difference in sound between "banging" on a door and trying to kick a door open. But I get your point.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

j-mac said:

Ok. That's your opinion. All that matters though is what the state can prove, and what a jury believes.

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True.

But I like to think (not sure) that the rules courts use to determine what is acceptable evidence and testimony are in some way related to my opinion

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

joko104 said:

Not a lot of difference in sound between "banging" on a door and trying to kick a door open. But I get your point.

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And I take yours. Having no first hand experience of burglary, I would imagine stealth would be a necessary prerequisite to making off, undetected, with someone else's portable valuables - so it is my surmise that neither banging on the door, nor kicking it down, nor drawing loud attention to your presence in any other way, would assist in that aim.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

The Mark said:

True.

But I like to think (not sure) that the rules courts use to determine what is acceptable evidence and testimony are in some way related to my opinion

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That would be decided by the judge, among other factors. In any case, I don't think in this day and age we can say for certainty how things will turn out in matters of right or wrong.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Lursa said:

What matters...and must be proven...is if he BELIEVED he was in danger. A screen door is no protection from anything. Even a drunken crazed women can get thru it. He had no idea if she was armed, why she was acting crazy, why she chose his porch, what her intent was. Have you ever been awoken in the middle of the night by a possible intruder in your home? It's scary and disorienting and you are focused on protecting yourself. Real survival is at all costs....that is the way the mind often works.

Do we even know if he had a porch light or other light on to see the threat better? I mean, imagine that in the dark.

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It's not that simple. It has to be a credible threat. If it were only as you say, anyone at anytime can claim they felt threatened and start killing people.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

From what I hear about this story, it seems this girl knocked on his door and was shot. That is murder. For this to be anything other than murder he would need a have had a reason to shoot her. Some type of threat would have to be established. Knocking on a door is not a threat. Doesnt matter if you dont know who they are, or the time of day or night. Knocking on a door, even drunken strangers in the middle of the night, is not adequate provocation to shoot someone.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Kreton said:

From what I hear about this story, it seems this girl knocked on his door and was shot. That is murder. For this to be anything other than murder he would need a have had a reason to shoot her. Some type of threat would have to be established. Knocking on a door is not a threat. Doesnt matter if you dont know who they are, or the time of day or night. Knocking on a door, even drunken strangers in the middle of the night, is not adequate provocation to shoot someone.

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Read the MI statute. You are simply wrong.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

j-mac said:

Read the MI statute. You are simply wrong.

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Wrong about what? Nothing in any statute that I am aware of says it is ok to shoot people in the face for knocking on your door.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Tettsuo said:

It's not that simple. It has to be a credible threat. If it were only as you say, anyone at anytime can claim they felt threatened and start killing people.

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Hence I wrote, "and must be proven."

And then of course there was this:

Lursa said:

It's not quite that simple....when the state starts to introduce that he shot thru a door, she was an 'innocent car accident victim', she had no visible weapons, etc etc etc.

I don't know what the state will introduce and I don't know if any of those things are true...but that doesn't even matter on some points...'innocent car victim' is subjective but plays very well with some juries, if it gets to a jury. Not to mention that guilty or not....he may have to pay ALL his own court and lawyer costs. Depends on the state.

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Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Kreton said:

From what I hear about this story, it seems this girl knocked on his door and was shot. That is murder. For this to be anything other than murder he would need a have had a reason to shoot her. Some type of threat would have to be established. Knocking on a door is not a threat. Doesnt matter if you dont know who they are, or the time of day or night. Knocking on a door, even drunken strangers in the middle of the night, is not adequate provocation to shoot someone.

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A screaming, bloody, seemingly crazy person on the other side of a 'screen' door could be very threatening. Whether or not a person would consider that a 'lethal threat' or 'threat to gross bodily harm' is what is going to be examined here. It will be (should be) based on what a 'reasonable' person would think and do and all the details that they find out.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Lursa said:

A screaming, bloody, seemingly crazy person on the other side of a 'screen' door could be very threatening. Whether or not a person would consider that a 'lethal threat' or 'threat to gross bodily harm' is what is going to be examined here. It will be (should be) based on what a 'reasonable' person would think and do and all the details that they find out.

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If they enter your home I would agree. But someone screaming and acting a fool on your porch would warrant a phone call to the police, and you preparing yourself in case they come in.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

I'm sorry, but does anyone here live in Detroit? If anyone was knocking on my door past 7PM, I'd probably be pretty damn skeptical/scared myself.

This is how that city celebrates new years.



Given, it sounds like music to my ears (love me some guns, especially all the FA fire), this place is a warzone on a good day.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Kreton said:

Wrong about what? Nothing in any statute that I am aware of says it is ok to shoot people in the face for knocking on your door.

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Since I am on my phone, please excise my para phrasing. But, I believe it reads something like, 'if the person is within their own dwelling, and perceives threat to self, or others within, then force is justified.'

Now, it can certainly be your opinion that he didn't face a threat, or that he shouldn't have shot her, but that is, without being there at the moment, and or, knowing all the facts, merely speculation and opinion. The burden of proof is on the state.

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Kreton said:

If they enter your home I would agree. But someone screaming and acting a fool on your porch would warrant a phone call to the police, and you preparing yourself in case they come in.

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"Property" is the key here.