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Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

Visbek said:
Afraid I'm with roguenuke on this one.
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His motivations do not change the fact that he emotionally compromised, which led him to act rashly and irrationally. The police may not have done it the right way, but they did the right thing by preventing him from running back into the burning building.
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This isn't a decision you make with math. If my son is in a burning building I am fine with risking my life for a 1/3 chance to get him out. The police were wrong.

I'm a pretty forgiving person. I would have a difficult time ridding myself of the strong desire to track this cop down and kill him. As far as I would be concerned, that would be the man who put my boy in a coffin.
 
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cpwill said:
This isn't a decision you make with math.
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Yeah, it sort of is. Ethical concerns are not settled by "who has the strongest emotions." Nor does anything about the stepfather's emotional attachment to the child change a single fact about the circumstances.


If my son is in a burning building I am fine with risking my life for a 1/3 chance to get him out. The police were wrong.
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What you fail to recognize is that your decision isn't happening in a vacuum. Your actions will have a direct effect on the safety of numerous others, including the first responders who are risking their lives to save your family, your home, and your neighbors.

In addition, as much as I hate to use a cliché: Hindsight is 20/20. It is very easy, especially for an untrained individual who wasn't there, to dream up a counterfactual where the rescue attempt was a success. I mean, how great would that be? The reality is almost certainly much different, which is why first responders are trained and obligated to prevent bystanders from rushing into a burning building.


I'm a pretty forgiving person. I would have a difficult time ridding myself of the strong desire to track this cop down and kill him. As far as I would be concerned, that would be the man who put my boy in a coffin.
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Your desire to murder a police officer who was basically performing his duty, based on a pipe dream of a successful rescue by a guy in his pajamas, definitely is not helping your ethical case.

In fact, it would be highly unethical for the officers to sit back and eat donuts while hysterical family member after hysterical family member rushes into the house to their doom.
 
RedAkston said:
Not sure why it took more than a week for this to make national headlines, but this is just sad. The police absolutely should not have done this. This is disturbing to say the least.
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As an EMT and Fire Fighter myself...I disagree. The Police absolutely should have done this, it was their responsibility to limit further loss of life, and they made the right call. Instead of one fatality there would have been two fatalities. These police offlicers are heroes for their quick thinking and action. If the fire was too hot for our bunker gear than the Father never had a chance to begin with...he would have burned up within the first 10 feet. Imagine the response if they did nothing - you people can't see it - but they we're screwed either way in this situation....either way someone was going to be outraged. Good for the police for doing their jobs and good for them for retaining rationality during a blaze.
 
cpwill said:
As far as I would be concerned, that would be the man who put my boy in a coffin.
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So suicide? The man who put the boy in the coffin was the Father...who ran out of the house without grabbing the kid in the very first place. So if blame must be given...it falls on him. You cannot blame the police for doing their job and saving this mans life. They didn't kill the boy, fire did, and no one was going to change that.
 
Constantine said:
So suicide? The man who put the boy in the coffin was the Father...who ran out of the house without grabbing the kid in the very first place. So if blame must be given...it falls on him.
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IMO that's too harsh. I'd be more that willing to give the family the benefit of the doubt, and assume they did their best to save the boy the first time.

That said, it is entirely plausible that part of his hysteria was a feeling of guilt over the failure of his first rescue attempt.
 
Visbek said:
IMO that's too harsh. I'd be more that willing to give the family the benefit of the doubt, and assume they did their best to save the boy the first time.

That said, it is entirely plausible that part of his hysteria was a feeling of guilt over the failure of his first rescue attempt.
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Perhaps but it's also very docile compared to the opinions I've read in this thread from people who don't even understand much less have ever even been on a fire scene. People who have never even been in bunker gear or drug a hose. The guy I quoted said he would kill a cop for this...that's criminal, despicable, and so far into the realms of disgusting to me I can't even tell you in proper words. Hysteria is always on scenes...but people need to understand it cannot rule their actions...and when someone who is thinking clearly stops you...it's not wrong or a problem or anything against you as a person.....it's someone who knows the situation. Those cops know they will never be thanked but that man regardless has his life because of their actions - there was no other outcome.

Now do all cops know the situation? No. Lets reveres it real fast with an anecdote. In 2006 we had a police officer arrive on a structure fire first. He didn't know if there was people in the building. He ran in there with a fire extinguisher about the size of a 2 liter coke bottle. Like the Father in this situation...my cop there didn't think, he gave in to adrenaline, and he himself almost became a causality. He's lucky we we're able to take him off the second story roof with the ladder truck before the roof caved in. That house as I remember it was a total loss - it was an old and very flammable building. No one is immune to hysteria.

Clear thinking wins the day. Adrenaline causes injuries and loss of life. I just want people to understand the real situation and what's going on because I see a lot in here that makes me angry.
 
Note to self: If I ever need to save someone in a desperate situation sucker punch the cops first.

Its not suicide. Its self sacrifice (possible, not guaranteed). Huge difference.
 
Constantine said:
Perhaps but it's also very docile compared to the opinions I've read in this thread....
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I concur. I fully agree that the idea of murdering a police officer for doing their job shows a deep flaw in one's ethics. But if you will pardon the term, I don't think you can counter incendiary remarks with additional incendiary remarks. ;)

I'd also guess that some of the posters have problems with authority, or at least its agents; and/or fail to understand how their alpha fantasies of outperforming professional firefighters are wholly unrealistic.

Another factor is that people get very touchy about the use of tasers. I haven't done extensive research on the topic, and know tasers have their risks (and from what I understand, hurt like hell). I can certainly imagine, though, that other restraints could have resulted in serious and/or permanent harm to the subject -- e.g. they could have dislocated or broken an arm, they could have failed to restrain him, and so forth. As you noted, it's a no-win situation for the first responder, and it's easy to target the use of tasers as "evidence" that the cops were somehow unfeeling or cruel.
 
Visbek said:
I concur. I fully agree that the idea of murdering a police officer for doing their job shows a deep flaw in one's ethics. But if you will pardon the term, I don't think you can counter incendiary remarks with additional incendiary remarks. ;)

I'd also guess that some of the posters have problems with authority, or at least its agents; and/or fail to understand how their alpha fantasies of outperforming professional firefighters are wholly unrealistic.

Another factor is that people get very touchy about the use of tasers. I haven't done extensive research on the topic, and know tasers have their risks (and from what I understand, hurt like hell). I can certainly imagine, though, that other restraints could have resulted in serious and/or permanent harm to the subject -- e.g. they could have dislocated or broken an arm, they could have failed to restrain him, and so forth. As you noted, it's a no-win situation for the first responder, and it's easy to target the use of tasers as "evidence" that the cops were somehow unfeeling or cruel.
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A firefighter is just doing their job. They have family to go back to. There is no replacement for love and no firefighter can compare to the willpower it bestows. If someone wants to put themselves at risk for a good enough reason then little ticket collector cops can **** off. I wonder what sort of bill this guy will get for firefighters and cops showing up yet not letting this man attempt to save his son "because they dont wanna feel bad if he hurts himself". So instead they let him deal with grief for eternity or until he dies. What they did was greedy and for themselves because they didnt want to see more tragedy. And cast this man into a loop of a hell in his mind.

Its easy for the cops because it isnt a member of their family in there. They still get to see their childs smile when they get home. They can pat themselves on the back all they want but by not even letting this man try on his own accord they really dont care about him. They just dont want to feel bad about themselves.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
A firefighter is just doing their job. They have family to go back to. There is no replacement for love....
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Love cannot repel flames. Willpower will not overcome smoke inhalation. Running into a burning building to save a child is not reality, it's Hollywood nonsense.

I also see no indication that the firefighters, either in general or in this case, were phoning it in. The mere suggestion is insulting.


If someone wants to put themselves at risk for a good enough reason then little ticket collector cops can **** off.
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That "ticket collector" is doing his job, by stopping someone from recklessly and rashly causing their own death.

I mean, really. Do none of you people recognize how insanely dangerous it is to run into a burning building?


So instead they let him deal with grief for eternity or until he dies.
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At least he's alive to feel the grief; at least his family doesn't have to mourn him, too.


What they did was greedy and for themselves because they didnt want to see more tragedy. And cast this man into a loop of a hell in his mind.
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"Didn't want more tragedy?" You mean, they didn't want more people to die? That, to you, is greedy and selfish?

Pardon my French, but that's total bull****. There is no way the first responders restrained this guy out of greed or self-interest. They made a choice to protect people in their community, at great risk to their own health and safety, and in many cases without much pay.

And again, if the cops did nothing, watching family member after family member run into the building, what would be the response then? They'd be torn apart for letting an entire family perish.


Its easy for the cops because it isnt a member of their family in there.
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Again, what hogwash.

Cops aren't perfect; firefighters aren't angels. When they screw up, we need to call them on it. In this case, they did not screw up; they did exactly what they were supposed to do. The people who put their lives on the line to keep you safe deserve respect, not insults based on macho fantasies of Saving the Day.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
A firefighter is just doing their job.They have family to go back to.
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So we're the cops...

dirtpoorchris said:
If someone wants to put themselves at risk for a good enough reason then little ticket collector cops can **** off.
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Wrong. The point of 911 is to minimalize the loss of life and property. In this case the Father's life was the only thing the responders we're able to save.

dirtpoorchris said:
I wonder what sort of bill this guy will get for firefighters and cops showing up yet not letting this man attempt to save his son "because they dont wanna feel bad if he hurts himself".
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Zero. The Fire Department doesn't bill and neither does the police department. Any property lost will be submitted to the insurance company. It's not that they don't want to feel bad...it's the law...and it's ethically right.

dirtpoorchris said:
So instead they let him deal with grief for eternity or until he dies.
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That was his only option to begin with. He'll go through grief and move on...like every one else in the world.

dirtpoorchris said:
What they did was greedy and for themselves because they didnt want to see more tragedy.
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Bull****. There was nothing greedy about it. They did their jobs and they are heroes for doing it. There was no reason for this man to throw away his life for no reason.

dirtpoorchris said:
Its easy for the cops because it isnt a member of their family in there.
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It doesn't matter who or what it is...it wasn't easy for anyone...but that's the cards fate threw the responders in this situation. If you don't want to understand it...that's your problem.

dirtpoorchris said:
They can pat themselves on the back all they want
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As they should. They deserve commendations.

dirtpoorchris said:
but by not even letting this man try on his own accord they really dont care about him. They just dont want to feel bad about themselves.
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^Emotional bull**** that further shows you have no concept of what happened and that you clearly do not understand.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
What they did was greedy and for themselves because they didnt want to see more tragedy. And cast this man into a loop of a hell in his mind.
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It's also easier to die in a tragedy than to live with survivors guilt. Death hurts the living more than the dead. If he did die it's his wife or any other family member that lives with survivors guilt for two family members. The family support through shared experience is gone. A lonely widow is left behind.

Everyone there is selfish for the reason of not wanting to have a life on their conscience, including the father.
 
my question is: Since he was unable to get to the kid when the fire first started, what made this guy think he could get to the kid after the fire had gotten even hotter and spread even further?
 
OscarB63 said:
my question is: Since he was unable to get to the kid when the fire first started, what made this guy think he could get to the kid after the fire had gotten even hotter and spread even further?
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Im assuming his first instinct was to be safe. Once he got to safety "OH ****...". Human blunder. Obviously the guy thought there was still SOME chance.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Im assuming his first instinct was to be safe. Once he got to safety "OH ****...". Human blunder. Obviously the guy thought there was still SOME chance.
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according to the article, hte man and wife tried to get to the kid when the fire first started and couldn't. but, of course, that could be BS and they just didn't want to admit they panicked, forgot about the kid and just got the **** out. which would also explain why the guy was so desperate to try to get back in, guilt over forgetting about the kid in the first place.


by the time the guy tried to get back in, there was no chance. the fire had already been burning for some time (long enough to spread to the upstairs windows) with both floors burning, it was at least 1400-2000 degrees in there. no way in hell that kid was still alive.

****ty situation but sometimes there just anything you can do.

my last deployment, the convoy I was in got hit with an IED. There was an Iraqi truck carrying ammo in line behind my vehicle. It got hit and set on fire. 5 guys in the truck. we unassed our MRAP to try to assist and the rounds were cooking off so fast, it would have been suicide to attempt to approach the vehicle. As highest ranking guy in the convoy, I had to make the decision to either send my guys into a hail of bullets with no way to supress the fire or let the Iraqi dudes burn. Probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make.
 
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Constantine said:
So suicide? The man who put the boy in the coffin was the Father...who ran out of the house without grabbing the kid in the very first place. So if blame must be given...it falls on him. You cannot blame the police for doing their job and saving this mans life. They didn't kill the boy, fire did, and no one was going to change that.
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You were not in the house, its hard to say what was going on inside before he tried getting back in.
The cops on the scene were worthless.
 
CRUE CAB said:
You were not in the house, its hard to say what was going on inside before he tried getting back in.
The cops on the scene were worthless.
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Likewise. You we're not on scene. It's hard to say anything about the cops. :doh
 
CRUE CAB said:
Yea it is, they had time to beat and taz dad. Yet had no time to try to gain entry.
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You seem extremely confused about what a police officer does. Gain entry to what? The house that was so hot and smoke filled that the Fire Fighters in full bunker gear couldn't go into??
 
Constantine said:
You seem extremely confused about what a police officer does. Gain entry to what? The house that was so hot and smoke filled that the Fire Fighters in full bunker gear couldn't go into??
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Yea, I am sure thats the story. It always is. Bottom line is the home owner didnt bow down and capitulate. He forgot who was in charge at his own home.
 
CRUE CAB said:
Bottom line is the home owner didnt bow down and capitulate. He forgot who was in charge at his own home.
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Correct. The father forgot (or did not know) that in those circumstances, the firefighters and police have full authority at the scene.
 
Visbek said:
Correct. The father forgot (or did not know) that in those circumstances, the firefighters and police have full authority at the scene.
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I know, bow to ma athoriti. I have a badge and gun and you dont. And now another crutch, a tazer.
 
CRUE CAB said:
I know, bow to ma athoriti. I have a badge and gun and you dont.
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It's not about the arbitrary use of force. It's about keeping hysterical people from running straight into a building that's 1000+ degrees.


And now another crutch, a tazer.
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Again, if you know of a better way to restrain someone, let's hear it. Again, I don't know if a taser is the best choice, but everything else I can think of is just as bad.
 
Visbek said:
It's not about the arbitrary use of force. It's about keeping hysterical people from running straight into a building that's 1000+ degrees.



Again, if you know of a better way to restrain someone, let's hear it. Again, I don't know if a taser is the best choice, but everything else I can think of is just as bad.
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Talk about hysterical.
 
I think the police made the right call . If a fire fighter deemed it to hot how would the father be able to withstand . In times of panic one can make bad decisions . A father may have to bury his son but the father 's family doesn't have to burry him along with the child . The part about the tazzing im not so sure of what to make of it because it really doesn't say how the father reacted after he was hand cuffed he might of still been struggling to the point it may have been necessary since most people would if their child's life was at stake .
 
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