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Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

And the tasered guy's life was not endangered by the taser?

What's worse than dead? According to previous logic used there was no "relatively safe" place.

You keep going back to father "endangering plenty of other lives" yet argue first responders already deemed too dangerous to enter meaning they have no intention to enter fire; which is it?

Tasers rarely kill people. He would have been in much more danger of dying of the fire, either from smoke inhalation or burns or even being crushed from things falling on him in the burning house than dying from being tasered. (I have researched tazers for my criminal justice classes, so I am well aware of how "often" they have killed.)

And they had no way to know whether the child was alive or not. That is the point. Too many people are thinking of this from just the aftermath instead of what the decision is in that moment, not knowing whether the child is alive or dead or anything else we do know now. Hindsight is 20/20.

It was too dangerous to enter at that moment. They were trying to get the fire more contained. Plus, they had no idea where to look for the child, yet they would have known exactly where the father was had it made it through the door. Plus, there is no telling what he might have done had he started on fire himself (became a "screaming alpha"). A person who is on fire can start to panic and spread the fire other places, including outside the house.
 
Running into a burning building is going to make the situation worse?

It absolutely could.

I'm going to get an infraction for this, but it will be well deserved. I only save my infractions for the truly ignorant assholes of the board and you have shown yourself to a shining example of one in this thread.

roguenuke, you are a ****ing idiot. Running into a burning building (which in this particular case is the man's own house) to save his step-son that he dearly loves "absolutely could" (your words) make the situation worse and that's justification for handcuffing and tasing the guy? The reports show that the boy may have been saved. Whether the FD wanted to go in or not is not the situation here. If they weren't going to go in to save the boy, why would they go in to save the man, which is the basis for your stupidity. The point I and several others have been trying to make is that the man had the RIGHT to enter his OWN ****ing house to attempt to save HIS OWN step-son. HIS house is on fire and HIS step-son's life is in the balance. If the FD isn't going to risk their life to save the boy, why shouldn't the man be able to?

Now you can spin your little moral superiority bull**** that you've been spinning all through this thread but guess what, it doesn't hold any weight with me and others. That boy died and it's a tragedy. That man will now live the rest of his life knowing that the boy could have been saved had the PD not handcuffed and tased him - 3 ****ing times! Yes, he couldn't get to the boy from where he was in the house when the fire started, but that doesn't mean he couldn't get to him from the other side of the house. The police have no right to "save us from ourselves". If the guy had a gun and was a threat to others they would absolutely have that right, but he was not a danger to others, only to himself and only to save his own step-son.

You have no "moral authority" over me or anyone else in this thread. And judging by your own words in this very thread, I'm going to go out on a very big limb and say that you don't have any kids and you've never loved someone so much that you would do anything, and I mean ANYTHING, to protect and save them, even if it means giving up your life in an attempt to do so. You call it an "emotional state", the rest of the world calls in unconditional love. To risk your life to save that of someone you love is noble, a sign of love, not an "emotional state". Why you can't get that only leads to one conclusion - you have no idea what love really is.

So instead of telling us all how wrong we are, how wrong the father was and how right the PD were, we don't really give a **** what you think because you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

This is why the world is goung to be so much worse off if the Libbos are running the show.

Stop being an asshole apdst. Not everything is a liberal-conservative thing and even bringing this up in this thread is a dirtbag move. This story has nothing to do with politics, not even remotely, and yet here you are being a douchebag because you are too stupid to know better. STOP being a douchebag for crying out loud! There's a time to attack the "evil libbos" and there's a time to leave it out of the conversation. This thread is a perfect example of when to leave it out of the conversation. Maybe you're too stupid to know better or maybe you have no impulse control or maybe a little bit of both, but it's getting tiring and old. You are a partisan hack and you are just as bad if not worse than some of the liberal partisan hacks we have here at DP. You brought up the "libbos" more than 100 posts after the OP when no one mentioned politics in the slightest. This story is not a political story, it's a tragedy that has absolutely nothing to do with politics. I'm so sick of you doing this constantly, it only makes you look pathetic.

I'm reporting myself for this post and I accept the points I will receive. When I see the utter stupidity that I've seen from a poster (or two), I can only take so much. What I said needed to be said and it's done.
 
If I want to risk my own life to save the life of my son or stepson, that's my decision. The police overstepped here big time.

Then do it BEFORE police arrive. Police are charged with preventing suicides too.
 
Then do it BEFORE police arrive. Police are charged with preventing suicides too.

And again, he could have saved the boy and gotten out himself. Had he been holding a gun to his head, that would be a different issue entirely. They prevented him from trying to save the life of the one he loved. And it's not against the law to commit suicide, to use your illogical argument against you, so how could the police be "charged with" such a thing?
 
And again, he could have saved the boy and gotten out himself. Had he been holding a gun to his head, that would be a different issue entirely. They prevented him from trying to save the life of the one he loved. And it's not against the law to commit suicide, to use your illogical argument against you, so how could the police be "charged with" such a thing?

Now you're denying that police attempt to stop suicides? What's next? Police assisted suicide? How could you know that the boy was not already dead anyway?
 
Now your denying that police attempt to stop suicides? What's next? Police assisted suicide? How could you know that the boy was not already dead anyway?

Well, he was alive when they pulled him out, so there's that. :roll:

I'm not saying that police don't stop suicide attempts, I'm saying that they don't have the right to do so as suicide is not a crime. They are tasked with stopping crime, not stopping something that isn't a crime. Please do try to keep up.
 
I'm going to get an infraction for this, but it will be well deserved. I only save my infractions for the truly ignorant assholes of the board and you have shown yourself to a shining example of one in this thread.

roguenuke, you are a ****ing idiot. Running into a burning building (which in this particular case is the man's own house) to save his step-son that he dearly loves "absolutely could" (your words) make the situation worse and that's justification for handcuffing and tasing the guy? The reports show that the boy may have been saved. Whether the FD wanted to go in or not is not the situation here. If they weren't going to go in to save the boy, why would they go in to save the man, which is the basis for your stupidity. The point I and several others have been trying to make is that the man had the RIGHT to enter his OWN ****ing house to attempt to save HIS OWN step-son. HIS house is on fire and HIS step-son's life is in the balance. If the FD isn't going to risk their life to save the boy, why shouldn't the man be able to?

Now you can spin your little moral superiority bull**** that you've been spinning all through this thread but guess what, it doesn't hold any weight with me and others. That boy died and it's a tragedy. That man will now live the rest of his life knowing that the boy could have been saved had the PD not handcuffed and tased him - 3 ****ing times! Yes, he couldn't get to the boy from where he was in the house when the fire started, but that doesn't mean he couldn't get to him from the other side of the house. The police have no right to "save us from ourselves". If the guy had a gun and was a threat to others they would absolutely have that right, but he was not a danger to others, only to himself and only to save his own step-son.

You have no "moral authority" over me or anyone else in this thread. And judging by your own words in this very thread, I'm going to go out on a very big limb and say that you don't have any kids and you've never loved someone so much that you would do anything, and I mean ANYTHING, to protect and save them, even if it means giving up your life in an attempt to do so. You call it an "emotional state", the rest of the world calls in unconditional love. To risk your life to save that of someone you love is noble, a sign of love, not an "emotional state". Why you can't get that only leads to one conclusion - you have no idea what love really is.

So instead of telling us all how wrong we are, how wrong the father was and how right the PD were, we don't really give a **** what you think because you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Although yes the man was wrong for running into the home in a logical sense, I've never said his reaction was wrong. It is actually completely understandable, and something I have said several times I would likely do myself (in that particular situation). In fact, the only actions I see as wrong in this situation is the family not waiting and letting their grief die before acting out on this supposed injustice they believe happened. If nothing comes of this, it really isn't a big deal at all. It is simply media sensationalizing on grief stricken families and once again using such a situation to demonize police and/or their use of tazers.

But those who can't understand that yes, people react irrationally and that is not a good thing when they are under emotional distress and that it is absolutely the responsibility of emergency personnel and police to prevent people from acting on their emotional reactions that could put them or their loved ones or others in danger, as in this case, are wrong. You and others should be able to think more rationally about this. I understand this is an emotional topic for many. But that is also why many police and other emergency personnel must be trained to put aside their emotions for situations so they can make logical, reasonable decisions based on the welfare of everyone.
 
Well, he was alive when they pulled him out, so there's that. :roll:

I'm not saying that police don't stop suicide attempts, I'm saying that they don't have the right to do so as suicide is not a crime. They are tasked with stopping crime, not stopping something that isn't a crime. Please do try to keep up.

He was breathing (according to the father) when they pulled him out. Which actually goes worse for the father because the father trying to get in could have been enough of a distraction to prevent earlier entry. But there is also no guarantee that the boy would have lived anyway had the father made it in. And there is no evidence at all that the father would have been more likely to save his son, even if he had made it into the house. Chances in fact are much bigger that the father would have died or been severely injured trying, causing more grief for this family, but still failed.
 
I'm going to get an infraction for this, but it will be well deserved. I only save my infractions for the truly ignorant assholes of the board and you have shown yourself to a shining example of one in this thread.

roguenuke, you are a ****ing idiot. Running into a burning building (which in this particular case is the man's own house) to save his step-son that he dearly loves "absolutely could" (your words) make the situation worse and that's justification for handcuffing and tasing the guy? The reports show that the boy may have been saved. Whether the FD wanted to go in or not is not the situation here. If they weren't going to go in to save the boy, why would they go in to save the man, which is the basis for your stupidity. The point I and several others have been trying to make is that the man had the RIGHT to enter his OWN ****ing house to attempt to save HIS OWN step-son. HIS house is on fire and HIS step-son's life is in the balance. If the FD isn't going to risk their life to save the boy, why shouldn't the man be able to?

Now you can spin your little moral superiority bull**** that you've been spinning all through this thread but guess what, it doesn't hold any weight with me and others. That boy died and it's a tragedy. That man will now live the rest of his life knowing that the boy could have been saved had the PD not handcuffed and tased him - 3 ****ing times! Yes, he couldn't get to the boy from where he was in the house when the fire started, but that doesn't mean he couldn't get to him from the other side of the house. The police have no right to "save us from ourselves". If the guy had a gun and was a threat to others they would absolutely have that right, but he was not a danger to others, only to himself and only to save his own step-son.

You have no "moral authority" over me or anyone else in this thread. And judging by your own words in this very thread, I'm going to go out on a very big limb and say that you don't have any kids and you've never loved someone so much that you would do anything, and I mean ANYTHING, to protect and save them, even if it means giving up your life in an attempt to do so. You call it an "emotional state", the rest of the world calls in unconditional love. To risk your life to save that of someone you love is noble, a sign of love, not an "emotional state". Why you can't get that only leads to one conclusion - you have no idea what love really is.

So instead of telling us all how wrong we are, how wrong the father was and how right the PD were, we don't really give a **** what you think because you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.



Stop being an asshole apdst. Not everything is a liberal-conservative thing and even bringing this up in this thread is a dirtbag move. This story has nothing to do with politics, not even remotely, and yet here you are being a douchebag because you are too stupid to know better. STOP being a douchebag for crying out loud! There's a time to attack the "evil libbos" and there's a time to leave it out of the conversation. This thread is a perfect example of when to leave it out of the conversation. Maybe you're too stupid to know better or maybe you have no impulse control or maybe a little bit of both, but it's getting tiring and old. You are a partisan hack and you are just as bad if not worse than some of the liberal partisan hacks we have here at DP. You brought up the "libbos" more than 100 posts after the OP when no one mentioned politics in the slightest. This story is not a political story, it's a tragedy that has absolutely nothing to do with politics. I'm so sick of you doing this constantly, it only makes you look pathetic.

I'm reporting myself for this post and I accept the points I will receive. When I see the utter stupidity that I've seen from a poster (or two), I can only take so much. What I said needed to be said and it's done.

I never said everything is "Liberal/Conservative". So, use your infractions more wisely in the future.
 
In fact, the only actions I see as wrong in this situation is the family not waiting and letting their grief die before acting out on this supposed injustice they believe happened.
They should have waited for their grief to die?

There's no time table for grief. Grief doesn't ever completely die.
 
They should have waited for their grief to die?

There's no time table for grief. Grief doesn't ever completely die.

True - but your ability to control your emotions and the rawness of your grief does.
 
The cops were very much in the wrong, as a father (or anyone for that matter) it should be his business and his choice to risk his life to save someone else's. This should be respected as a sacred human right on par with the right to self defense. Stun gunning someone who is trying to save their child, even if it's likely that both will die, is a massive overstepping of boundaries on the behalf of the police.
 
The cops were very much in the wrong, as a father (or anyone for that matter) it should be his business and his choice to risk his life to save someone else's. This should be respected as a sacred human right on par with the right to self defense. Stun gunning someone who is trying to save their child, even if it's likely that both will die, is a massive overstepping of boundaries on the behalf of the police.

Exactly. If I am willing to trade my life for the life of my child that is my choice.
 
I'm going to get an infraction for this, but it will be well deserved. I only save my infractions for the truly ignorant assholes of the board and you have shown yourself to a shining example of one in this thread.

roguenuke, you are a ****ing idiot. Running into a burning building (which in this particular case is the man's own house) to save his step-son that he dearly loves "absolutely could" (your words) make the situation worse and that's justification for handcuffing and tasing the guy? The reports show that the boy may have been saved. Whether the FD wanted to go in or not is not the situation here. If they weren't going to go in to save the boy, why would they go in to save the man, which is the basis for your stupidity. The point I and several others have been trying to make is that the man had the RIGHT to enter his OWN ****ing house to attempt to save HIS OWN step-son. HIS house is on fire and HIS step-son's life is in the balance. If the FD isn't going to risk their life to save the boy, why shouldn't the man be able to?

Now you can spin your little moral superiority bull**** that you've been spinning all through this thread but guess what, it doesn't hold any weight with me and others. That boy died and it's a tragedy. That man will now live the rest of his life knowing that the boy could have been saved had the PD not handcuffed and tased him - 3 ****ing times! Yes, he couldn't get to the boy from where he was in the house when the fire started, but that doesn't mean he couldn't get to him from the other side of the house. The police have no right to "save us from ourselves". If the guy had a gun and was a threat to others they would absolutely have that right, but he was not a danger to others, only to himself and only to save his own step-son.

You have no "moral authority" over me or anyone else in this thread. And judging by your own words in this very thread, I'm going to go out on a very big limb and say that you don't have any kids and you've never loved someone so much that you would do anything, and I mean ANYTHING, to protect and save them, even if it means giving up your life in an attempt to do so. You call it an "emotional state", the rest of the world calls in unconditional love. To risk your life to save that of someone you love is noble, a sign of love, not an "emotional state". Why you can't get that only leads to one conclusion - you have no idea what love really is.

So instead of telling us all how wrong we are, how wrong the father was and how right the PD were, we don't really give a **** what you think because you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.



Stop being an asshole apdst. Not everything is a liberal-conservative thing and even bringing this up in this thread is a dirtbag move. This story has nothing to do with politics, not even remotely, and yet here you are being a douchebag because you are too stupid to know better. STOP being a douchebag for crying out loud! There's a time to attack the "evil libbos" and there's a time to leave it out of the conversation. This thread is a perfect example of when to leave it out of the conversation. Maybe you're too stupid to know better or maybe you have no impulse control or maybe a little bit of both, but it's getting tiring and old. You are a partisan hack and you are just as bad if not worse than some of the liberal partisan hacks we have here at DP. You brought up the "libbos" more than 100 posts after the OP when no one mentioned politics in the slightest. This story is not a political story, it's a tragedy that has absolutely nothing to do with politics. I'm so sick of you doing this constantly, it only makes you look pathetic.

I'm reporting myself for this post and I accept the points I will receive. When I see the utter stupidity that I've seen from a poster (or two), I can only take so much. What I said needed to be said and it's done.

This isn't the kind of subject for which you quote and then put up the little "applause" emoticons. But I cannot put into words how strongly I find myself in agreement with you. I hesitate to say that any father worth his salt would do the same, as I don't want to start a fight critiquing people's most intense and personal and stressful life-for-life decisions, but any parent worth their salt would know exactly what you are talking about.
 
Isn't suicide illegal? So weren't the police preventing a crime?

Not that I'm please about this but I think that will be the defense.

depends on the state,i know in new york state suicide is punishible by death:lol:
 
It says in the article that the fire was too dangerous for the stepfather to try to rescue his son, and that the police tried to save him from himself.
Sad, though I have to think that the police made the correct judgment. Though one has to wonder about using the stun guns twice after the father has been handcuffed.

The same cop haters here would be yelling at the top of their lungs if the cops let the man run into the burning building and kill him self. At some point you just have to realize who your dealing with. After that, it all becomes clear that no matter what the cops do, they are wrong.
 
The cops were very much in the wrong, as a father (or anyone for that matter) it should be his business and his choice to risk his life to save someone else's. This should be respected as a sacred human right on par with the right to self defense. Stun gunning someone who is trying to save their child, even if it's likely that both will die, is a massive overstepping of boundaries on the behalf of the police.

That is alot of Monday Morning Quarterbacking in saying the "cops were very much in the wrong". This is a no win situation. I wasn't there and neither were you. Have no idea just how much of an inferno the fire was at that point. But if the fireman with their own air support and protective equipment on are unable to enter I don't think a regular person with every day clothing is going to be able to rush into the fire and find the child and return.

But wanting to commit suicide seeing your child die is understandable. Sometime the pain is just too much to bear. On the other hand if you are a policeman do you try to prevent other hysterical family members from rushing in too? Do you also let an older sibling try to rush in to save his younger brother?

It is a tough job being a cop or fireman. Those are tough calls. But again, if the firemen and police are there then this fire has been going for some time. I do not know all the logistics of this event but I would think the father would have already made an attempt to save the child long before that firetruck pulled up to the house.
 
The cops were very much in the wrong, as a father (or anyone for that matter) it should be his business and his choice to risk his life to save someone else's. This should be respected as a sacred human right on par with the right to self defense. Stun gunning someone who is trying to save their child, even if it's likely that both will die, is a massive overstepping of boundaries on the behalf of the police.

Damn right! Had that been the COP'S kid, he would expected everyone to go in with him.
 
Grief doesn't go away, but it does die down. It gets to a point where you can continue your life without those emotions from the loss being right there on the surface. It is called the stages of grief.

The 5 Stages of Loss and Grief | Psych Central

7 STAGES OF GRIEF

No ****. I don't need a lecture on the 5 stages of grief, thanks very much. I'm already well aware of the different stages of grief that people experience after losing someone close to them.

My post was in response to your ridiculous comment here, where you claimed the family should wait until their grief dies before speaking out. I merely corrected you stating that grief does not die. Maybe you meant to say "dies down" or "dimishes", only you know that but the fact is you didn't say that and what you said here was incorrect.

In fact, the only actions I see as wrong in this situation is the family not waiting and letting their grief die before acting out on this supposed injustice they believe happened.
 
This is why the world is goung to be so much worse off if the Libbos are running the show.

I was pointing out how Libbos are contrary on every damn thing.

Just being wrong on occassion doesn't make you a Libbo. ;)

We're here, so that Libbos can put words into our mouths and lie about what we say.

I never said everything is "Liberal/Conservative". So, use your infractions more wisely in the future.

You brought up liberals, or "libbos" as you referred to them here on 3 separate occasions. You brought up liberals in a thread that had absolutely nothing to do with politics. I was right and you were wrong, yet again. And FWIW, I'll use my infractions as I see fit - they are mine and mine alone.
 
No ****. I don't need a lecture on the 5 stages of grief, thanks very much. I'm already well aware of the different stages of grief that people experience after losing someone close to them.

My post was in response to your ridiculous comment here, where you claimed the family should wait until their grief dies before speaking out. I merely corrected you stating that grief does not die. Maybe you meant to say "dies down" or "dimishes", only you know that but the fact is you didn't say that and what you said here was incorrect.

And you are being stubborn in simply not wanting to see that I obviously meant that their grief is what caused them to view the police stopping the man from running back into the house to try to save his son as "wrong". Once that grief dies down, then rational thought should kick in (although some have shown that this wouldn't always be true). Rational thinking says that the likelihood of that man saving his son was pretty low. While the likelihood of him causing more issue for the situation, possibly even preventing help from reaching his son in time had it been a possibility, pretty high. I did mistype, but it shouldn't have been too hard for most people to know what I was saying. You obviously knew, but wanted to try to make it out as something else because you disagree with my support of the policemen stopping the man from doing something I see as very foolish.
 
And you are being stubborn in simply not wanting to see that I obviously meant that their grief is what caused them to view the police stopping the man from running back into the house to try to save his son as "wrong". Once that grief dies down, then rational thought should kick in (although some have shown that this wouldn't always be true). Rational thinking says that the likelihood of that man saving his son was pretty low. While the likelihood of him causing more issue for the situation, possibly even preventing help from reaching his son in time had it been a possibility, pretty high. I did mistype, but it shouldn't have been too hard for most people to know what I was saying. You obviously knew, but wanted to try to make it out as something else because you disagree with my support of the policemen stopping the man from doing something I see as very foolish.

Not being stubborn at all, i don't make it a practice to assume someone means something different to what they state. I responded to your post based on what you typed.

You now say you mistyped and you've now clarified what you meant to say. Cheers for that. Not sure why you chose not to do that to begin with rather than going off on a rant about the different stages of grieving. Everyone makes mistakes :shrug:
 
Running into a burning building (which in this particular case is the man's own house) to save his step-son that he dearly loves "absolutely could" (your words) make the situation worse and that's justification for handcuffing and tasing the guy?
Afraid I'm with roguenuke on this one.

"Don't run into a burning building" is about as basic as it gets. I mean, really. That's 2nd grade.

With no training, no protective equipment, no partner and no backup, he was undoubtedly putting himself into harm's way and had little chance of success. If he got in the way of the firefighters inside the building, he was increasing the risks not just to himself, but to the firefighters as well. If another family member, neighbor or friend ran in after him -- and the cops just let it happen -- then there is no question that will make the situation worse.

The police and fire department have not just the legal authority, but the responsibility, the obligation, the duty to stop family members from causing themselves harm, or their own deaths, by running into a burning building. That's their job -- to protect the public, even if it means doing things that individuals don't want them to do.

I also find your declarations of "self sovereignty" to be wholly unpersuasive. In many circumstances, it is undoubtedly moral to save someone's life. It is not moral when you have a low chance of success, and doing so puts yourself and others into mortal danger.

While I sympathize with the stepfather, the bottom line is he was hysterical, and had absolutely no idea what he was facing. He could not possibly make a rational decision about his odds of success, let alone survival.

Using a taser might not have been the optimal method, and perhaps police today do rely too heavily on tasers. That said, I doubt the alternatives would be any safer or more pleasant.


The reports show that the boy may have been saved.
Unless they don't.

Firefighters deemed the building too unsafe to enter at that moment. The stepfather, again, had no training, no protective equipment or partners; he could have easily been overcome with smoke or fatally burned long before he got to his stepson. Just by opening a door, he could have increased the size of the fire. At any moment, he could have been struck by a collapsing section of the house.

In addition, reports show the family did try to save the child before they left the house, and failed in their attempt ("the boy's mother and stepfather were able to exit the backdoor of the house after an unsuccessful attempt to get to the boy sleeping in another room"). I see little reason to believe that his attempt would have been more successful the second time.


If the FD isn't going to risk their life to save the boy, why shouldn't the man be able to?
If a trained firefighter with the appropriate protective equipment can't get into the house to save the child, then a hysterical stepfather in his pajamas is unquestionably less likely to succeed.

And since it's the job of the first responders to prevent people from dying, that pretty much means they have a moral (if not legal) obligation to prevent family members from dashing into the house.


That boy died and it's a tragedy. That man will now live the rest of his life knowing that the boy could have been saved had the PD not handcuffed and tased him....
No, he doesn't know it. He may believe it, he may suffer because of it, he may be traumatized by the night's events. That doesn't mean his belief is correct.


You call it an "emotional state", the rest of the world calls in unconditional love.
The man openly admitted he was (and I quote) hysterical. Nor is hysteria mutually exclusive with love; if anything, it was the latter (along with the failed first attempt, and of course the situation itself) that caused the former.

His motivations do not change the fact that he emotionally compromised, which led him to act rashly and irrationally. The police may not have done it the right way, but they did the right thing by preventing him from running back into the burning building.
 
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