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Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

Had they found the boy's body in his bed, it easier to conclude he could not have been saved, that it too late. But finding that the boy had awoken, left his bed and was laying at the door at the living will be the most haunting of all for that step father, mother etc. The little boy was trying to escape. He had collapsed to the gases, but then has fallen to the lowest - and safest - point from both heat and toxic gases - apparently the floor on the 1st floor - and being at the living room door mean it likely the next door was the front door. No one came for him.

With the fact of where the little boy's body was found, there is NO way to know whether or not the step father could have saved him. None. The cause of that boy's death, ultimately, may have been caused by the police tasering the step-father. We'll never know. Nor will he. I have no suspect he and the mother, probably the bio-father too, will hate those officers as much hate as there can be the rest of their lives - and will claim it was those two officers, not the fire, that killed their son.

Or the father could have easily have stepped on the son or even caused burning debris from the house to fall on him. The man was not trained. He had no business going into the house.

The fire killed the child, not the police or any other people there. It is a tragedy but you cannot say any differently. You have no idea if the child might have been saved had the father not tried to enter the house and waited for firefighters to go in.
 
What does that have to do with ANYTHING??? The fire fighters had already decided they were not going to try to rescue the little boy anymore, hadn't they? Sure, EIGHT HOURS later they looked for the body. What they found learned is that they had made the WRONG decision in concluding it certain the little boy already dead. The little boy was not high in his bed. He had collapsed on the floor halfway to getting out.

Yet the claim was made in an earlier report that the family says the boy was breathing when the firefighters pulled the child out. This means that they did in fact go into the house soon after the attempt made by the father. So yes, trying to stop the father could have hindered them enough to actually harm the rescue effort. Him in there, needing to be rescued himself, would have done further harm to it.

That child would not have survived 8 hours in that house, so no, you are wrong. You have no knowledge of the actual events. Only guesses, and it doesn't even sound as if they are informed.
 
He might have saved the boy. We'll never know - because of the actions of the police. I buried my son 2 1/2 years ago. I'd rather die in a fire 1,000 times than bury my son once. Had I been in the position to save him, there's nothing I wouldn't have done to try. This man will live with this for the rest of his life.

I realize this was a judgement call on behalf of the police officer, but it was the wrong call from where I sit.

That's hard. No parent should have to bury their own child. It's suppose to be the other way around.

The issue to the fire fighters was that of risking themselves to try to save "someone." To the step-father it was the risk to himself of trying to save his son. Those are not the same decision-risk factors. A fire fighter doesn't have to risk his/her life to save someone. However, it is a parent's duty to try to save their child even at the parent's own risk. That's how I see it anyway.
 
Yet the claim was made in an earlier report that the family says the boy was breathing when the firefighters pulled the child out. This means that they did in fact go into the house soon after the attempt made by the father. So yes, trying to stop the father could have hindered them enough to actually harm the rescue effort. Him in there, needing to be rescued himself, would have done further harm to it.

That child would not have survived 8 hours in that house, so no, you are wrong. You have no knowledge of the actual events. Only guesses, and it doesn't even sound as if they are informed.

Please link to the boy was pulled out breathing. Obviously that it vitally relevant - either way.
 
Please link to the boy was pulled out breathing. Obviously that it vitally relevant - either way.

Missouri dad tasered while trying to save son from burning home - NY Daily News

Ryan said his son was still breathing when officials carried him out of the house, which means that for the last few moments of Riely's life, his dad was sitting in a jail cell.

Read more: Missouri dad tasered while trying to save son from burning home - NY Daily News

Which means if they hadn't been dealing with him, perhaps, they could have saved the child instead. Yes, of course others see it as well he might have saved him, but the likelihood of an untrained person running into a dark, extremely hot house in barefeet and pajamas where he can't see anything (because you cannot see through smoke like that) and being able to find his son, particularly since the son was likely on the floor, not where the man would have expected him to be, is small. He likely would have harmed the child more by accident.
 
Doesn't mean those people shouldn't be stopped for attempting to do something foolish that could put them or others in more danger.

That father was not trained to go into a burning building (not from any of the information we have on him). He wouldn't know what would cause more problems in the rescue of his son by running into burning house. Firefighters do. He would in fact not even know where his son was, since he probably would have went straight to the bed, although it seems the son may have made it to the floor. Not being able to see the child on the floor, it is very likely that the father could have stepped on him, causing further injuries, possibly even ones that ended up taking his life before the fire or smoke got a chance. And then he could have become a casualty himself, and the firefighters would have to concentrate on trying to save both of them rather than just the boy.

What if we stipulate that he only puts himself in danger? That no first responder will try to save him?
 
Missouri dad tasered while trying to save son from burning home - NY Daily News



Which means if they hadn't been dealing with him, perhaps, they could have saved the child instead. Yes, of course others see it as well he might have saved him, but the likelihood of an untrained person running into a dark, extremely hot house in barefeet and pajamas where he can't see anything (because you cannot see through smoke like that) and being able to find his son, particularly since the son was likely on the floor, not where the man would have expected him to be, is small. He likely would have harmed the child more by accident.

Then I would need to see a timeline of actual events. Yes, that definitely could change my view of this. Thanks for pointing that out.
 
What if we stipulate that he only puts himself in danger? That no first responder will try to save him?

That can't work. Who makes that decision? When? And what about those others that want to make the same decision to save him and the boy, and then the line begins? It simply isn't feasible.
 
That can't work. Who makes that decision? When? And what about those others that want to make the same decision to save him and the boy, and then the line begins? It simply isn't feasible.

Who makes which decision?

It is certainly workable. "If you choose to go in there against our advice you are on your own" is all it takes.

Same with any others.
 
Who makes which decision?

It is certainly workable. "If you choose to go in there against our advice you are on your own" is all it takes.

Same with any others.

Who decides that this a person who is actually telling them "don't go after me" and not just someone they need to save? Plus, what happens if one or multiple of those people become "Screaming Alphas" and start spreading the fire, putting others in danger? It simply would not work. It isn't feasible. Most people are not going to accept that it is okay to allow an emotionally distraught person to make that decision for themself.
 
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Who decides that this a person who is actually telling them "don't go after me" and not just someone they need to save? Plus, what happens if one or multiple of those people become "Screaming Alphas" and start spreading the fire, putting others in danger? It simply would not work. It isn't feasible. Most people are not going to accept that it is okay to allow an emotionally distraught person to make that decision for themself.

The person themself. If a person decides to put himself at risk to save a loved one, especially when the professionals have declined to, it is his decision. It is his business.
First responders should be under no obligation nor should they have the authority to interfere. It is simply not their business.

Spreading the fire and other "what ifs" are beside the point. There are what ifs to every situation and you cannot stop someone from doing something because of a remote what if.
 
The person themself. If a person decides to put himself at risk to save a loved one, especially when the professionals have declined to, it is his decision. It is his business.
First responders should be under no obligation nor should they have the authority to interfere. It is simply not their business.

Spreading the fire and other "what ifs" are beside the point. There are what ifs to every situation and you cannot stop someone from doing something because of a remote what if.

It isn't that simple. A person who knows that their loved one is in a burning building is not in a mentally competent state. No one would ever allow them to legally sign a document right at that point. It would be way to easy to argue that the very nature of the situation caused them to make a decision that, if given more thought, they wouldn't make.

No, spreading the fire is very much a part of what the situation is. Plus, what if the person ends up harming the person that the firefighters should be saving? This makes situations harder and isn't acceptable. What if they are in the way when firefighters finally make it in to actually save the original person or should they simply be left to die because a loved one tried and failed?

Plus, another consideration is that when police and firefighters come to a fire, they have no idea whether it was arson or not, even in a home fire. They cannot allow people to run into a burning house to "save" someone when that person could potentially be just looking to ensure evidence gets destroyed. Heck, how do they even know coming to the scene who is or is not the owner of a house? Just because someone says "I'm going to save my <insert loved one here>" doesn't mean they are telling the truth.
 
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It isn't that simple. A person who knows that their loved one is in a burning building is not in a mentally competent state. No one would ever allow them to legally sign a document right at that point. It would be way to easy to argue that the very nature of the situation caused them to make a decision that, if given more thought, they wouldn't make.

No, spreading the fire is very much a part of what the situation is. Plus, what if the person ends up harming the person that the firefighters should be saving? This makes situations harder and isn't acceptable. What if they are in the way when firefighters finally make it in to actually save the original person or should they simply be left to die because a loved one tried and failed?

Plus, another consideration is that when police and firefighters come to a fire, they have no idea whether it was arson or not, even in a home fire. They cannot allow people to run into a burning house to "save" someone when that person could potentially be just looking to ensure evidence gets destroyed. Heck, how do they even know coming to the scene who is or is not the owner of a house? Just because someone says "I'm going to save my " doesn't mean they are telling the truth.

You can't seriously argue the mental state angle for several reasons.

First it's patently untrue that every person thrust into a stressful situation is incapable of making a sound decision.

Second, from a legal standpoint we hold people responsible for their decisions in all manner of stressful situations. Just look at self defense situations. The implication being that we assume sound decision making.

Third we accept that type of behavior from soldiers saving their buddies all the time. We give them medals for it.

Your point about getting in the way of rescue workers isn't valid because here the rescue workers have given up.

And finally your point about destruction of evidence seems contrived. What evidence does he hope to destroy that the fire wouldn't? And if he runs in and then out with a gas can in hand I kind of think people will notice and even if the don't I don't think arson investigators really need a gas can to figure out that an accelerant was used.
 
And both you and Red are wrong. You are putting others at risk, including very likely the person you are trying to save.

And why in most cases would you be doing this? Maybe pride, maybe just foolishness, maybe just stupidity. But in reality you are likely to do more harm than good in a situation similar to the one described by the OP. You don't get it because you want to believe that your actions would be better than nothing. Just because neither of you can understand that the likelihood of that being true isn't very high at all, doesn't mean you are right.

And, no, you do not have an absolute right to put yourself (and others) at more risk for your personal feelings, despite your beliefs on this. The police and other emergency personnel stop people from jumping off bridges, shooting themselves, running into burning houses/buildings, or trying other things that put them and/or others in danger all the time because that is part of their job, no matter those people's personal feelings about their right to do those things.

You know what. Neither of you understand that I understand those feelings that would make you say that you would go in after your children despite the police or other personnel there. Both my husband and I have discussed this and feel that either of us would try to go in to save our children as well. However, unlike you and Red, we would also understand other, clearer heads stopping us afterward (hopefully before we became a burden to the efforts) because in that circumstance people are not thinking correctly and that does lead to putting others in danger, including those who might be rescued.

My motive is most basic. I am sovereign. The right to risk my life is a sovereign decision NO ONE may preclude without risk of retaliation. It is my CLAIMED right and I expect it to be honored. Those who would attempt to deny me this most basic of sovereign rights will find that a decision they would regret profoundly. The law and the police claim what is not theirs to claim. I make my own choices, I keep my own council, I do as I will. To my children, to my family, I am honor and duty bound, by choice, to do EVERTHING I can to protect and or save them including the FUTILE sacrifice of my life if there is even smallest sliver of a chance I can. There will be no what if, no doubt, it is do or die trying. I protect my clan, they protect me.

This thread has well and truly pissed me off to no end like no other has. My rage gets to such I have to break things. I don't normally do that with this forum in fact I have never done that till now. The puzzling part is I am not quite sure why it drives me so.
 
My motive is most basic. I am sovereign. The right to risk my life is a sovereign decision NO ONE may preclude without risk of retaliation. It is my CLAIMED right and I expect it to be honored. Those who would attempt to deny me this most basic of sovereign rights will find that a decision they would regret profoundly. The law and the police claim what is not theirs to claim. I make my own choices, I keep my own council, I do as I will. To my children, to my family, I am honor and duty bound, by choice, to do EVERTHING I can to protect and or save them including the FUTILE sacrifice of my life if there is even smallest sliver of a chance I can. There will be no what if, no doubt, it is do or die trying. I protect my clan, they protect me.

This thread has well and truly pissed me off to no end like no other has. My rage gets to such I have to break things. I don't normally do that with this forum in fact I have never done that till now. The puzzling part is I am not quite sure why it drives me so.

Are you living as a Free Sovereign in a literal sense? Meaning you renounced citizenship, have no driver's license, no bank account, don't/can't vote, pay no taxes etc? That causes a very complex legal issues and I am suprised the government allows it. Probably so rare they don't think it's worth messing with.
 
Since they brought out the child while still breathing, but then died, it is entirely possible if the step-father could have gotten to that little boy in time to save his life. But the fire chief decided that he is who has total control of that man and the sole person to make life-death decisions for him (and for the child). That didn't work out for the child.

But I think he would lose any lawsuit.
 
No they weren't wrong.

What if the man would have run in and stepped on his son because he couldn't see anything through the smoke and the son was trying to get out so wasn't on his bed (I have no idea where he was in fact but that would probably be where the father looked for him)? Firefighters have equipment to help them see through fires, including thermal imaging cameras and lights that allow them to see much better through smoke than the father could have ever hoped to see (especially since the fire happened at night, in the dark to begin with). What if the father would have flared the fire up by bursting open the door (something the firefighters would have likely been more cautious about doing)? What if the father would have knocked some piece of furniture over on his way in causing an obstruction between him and the son or between them and getting out? There are so many ways that an untrained person running into a fire could cause so many more issues for those who are trained to actually do the rescuing. And those issues caused by the untrained loved one could mean the difference between the firefighters being able to rescue the other person and instead having to rescue the "hero".

I say they were wrong. There is absolutely NO argument you can make otherwise to change my mind. The more I think about this the more set I become.
 
I say they were wrong. There is absolutely NO argument you can make otherwise to change my mind. The more I think about this the more set I become.

That almost never happens on this forum. Most are very flexible on their opinions and readily concede they were wrong or they were persuaded to change their mind. :roll:
 
That almost never happens on this forum. :roll:

At this point I have begun breaking things, I am not going to be adding much more to this debate. I don't ever get agitated with debates yet somehow I did on this one.
So to keep my house intact I am going to reduce myself to observation and the occasional comment. Good thing I keep my armory elsewhere.
 
You can't seriously argue the mental state angle for several reasons.

First it's patently untrue that every person thrust into a stressful situation is incapable of making a sound decision.

Second, from a legal standpoint we hold people responsible for their decisions in all manner of stressful situations. Just look at self defense situations. The implication being that we assume sound decision making.

Third we accept that type of behavior from soldiers saving their buddies all the time. We give them medals for it.

Your point about getting in the way of rescue workers isn't valid because here the rescue workers have given up.

And finally your point about destruction of evidence seems contrived. What evidence does he hope to destroy that the fire wouldn't? And if he runs in and then out with a gas can in hand I kind of think people will notice and even if the don't I don't think arson investigators really need a gas can to figure out that an accelerant was used.

First, people are not held to the same standards in times of mental distress. A person who fights with the police, even striking them, during a fire while they are trying to get away would not (in almost all cases) be charged with a crime for doing so. In other situations, they would be. It is more than likely that the guy in the story in some way "assaulted" at least one of those officers for them to eventually use a tazer on him, yet he wasn't charged with anything. Why not? Because his mental state is taken into account during such assessments.

Second (and I realize these are flipped), not all people do lose rational thinking ability during stressful situations, but the average person does, and that is where we base most of our legal standing from, what a reasonable, rational person would see as the right thing to do in the situation if they were actually thinking about it without the emotional burden of having their loved one in that situation. Would you go in for a complete stranger in the same situation? Probably not. But if you were trained as a firefighter is would you? Hopefully, and that is the point.

Third, soldiers are trained to do those things and they don't have someone else on scene who is better trained. It is why we, as sailors have basic firefighting training and then do many shipboard drills on fires, because there is no one else to fight those fires, just us. We are trained to save people, to put out the fires. Watchstanders in my own job had the initial responsibility to know how to fight the fires (including what kind of fire we had).

The rescue workers didn't give up. I proved in another post to another person that they in fact brought the boy out of the house still breathing (according to the father). So they simply had to wait til they could safely make it in. Waiting for a safer time is not "giving up", but rather not doing something that will hamper actual legitimate efforts to rescue someone during a fire.

I wasn't talking about this guy. You act as if the police or firefighters knew the outcome we now have from the getgo. They don't. They know only what is going on in those moments. Since it isn't likely that anyone in their pajamas can provide proper identification (although this is a good indicator that the guy likely is who he says he is), it also is possible that he might not be an actual member of the household. Why let him go inside? Because he is emotionally distraught and is probably telling the truth? Because he wants to go in? What if he were a firebug trying to make the situation worse? My point is that at a given scene, the emergency responders do not have the same info that we, as the public, get a day, two, seven, later. They have to ensure that things are not made worse to the best of their ability.
 
I say they were wrong. There is absolutely NO argument you can make otherwise to change my mind. The more I think about this the more set I become.

And I'm going to say that you are going off of a emotional response, not facts. It doesn't matter if you don't like this and won't change your mind. It is what it is. If the situation happened the same with you being the person the cops had to stop, most cops, most firefighters would and should stop you too because they are trained, you aren't. They are prepared, you aren't (not in pajamas and barefeet). They have experience, and you likely don't. You can stubbornly be set in doing something foolish. I hope that it doesn't harm someone you love worse than the situation itself should it ever happen.
 
Are you living as a Free Sovereign in a literal sense? Meaning you renounced citizenship, have no driver's license, no bank account, don't/can't vote, pay no taxes etc? That causes a very complex legal issues and I am suprised the government allows it. Probably so rare they don't think it's worth messing with.

Do you do things for convenience sake? Well I for one do. I wear a mask not in the literal sense but figuratively. There are times and places to assert sovereignty. So long as I am basically left alone there wont be "problems". Yes I pay taxes get drivers licenses and all the rest. The difference is, if there is a time to assert my sovereignty I have that capability. Unfortunately the circumstances would have to be dire and completely unacceptable, apparent to all. At that point I would have little choice but to remove the mask of civility and assert with vigorous aggression my sovereignty which would unfortunately have a very messy uncertain outcome. I am very much like a bee in that I essentially only have one shot with my stinger and I must be able to make it count. The only two things I have going for me is the venom I have is exceptionally toxic, and the element of surprise. Is the venom toxic enough to equalize the equation. That is wholly unknown. Same with surprise. Maybe. Maybe not.
 
It says in the article that the fire was too dangerous for the stepfather to try to rescue his son, and that the police tried to save him from himself.
Sad, though I have to think that the police made the correct judgment. Though one has to wonder about using the stun guns twice after the father has been handcuffed.

We live in a free country. I have the right to place my life in danger to protect my family. The cops have no authority to stop me
 
And I'm going to say that you are going off of a emotional response, not facts. It doesn't matter if you don't like this and won't change your mind. It is what it is. If the situation happened the same with you being the person the cops had to stop, most cops, most firefighters would and should stop you too because they are trained, you aren't. They are prepared, you aren't (not in pajamas and barefeet). They have experience, and you likely don't. You can stubbornly be set in doing something foolish. I hope that it doesn't harm someone you love worse than the situation itself should it ever happen.

It's not their kid, either.
 
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