Common Core lessons blasted for sneaking politics into elementary classrooms

Dittohead not! said:

WOW! By fifth grade, really?
California state standards (the goals and objectives the test is based on) are that all students memorize the times tables by third grade. I guess your class was a couple of years behind.

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Well, it was a long time ago, and I couldn't remember whether it was 5th, or 3rd....I just remember driving to school with my dad that had me drill them every morning....But yeah, I guess you're right, it was 3rd....

Dittohead not! said:

WOW! By fifth grade, really?
California state standards (the goals and objectives the test is based on) are that all students memorize the times tables by third grade. I guess your class was a couple of years behind.

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not so certain it was the class

justabubba said:

ok, so you care about choice and competition
now share with us how a focus on choice and competition could substantially elevate our public school system

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That's simple. Students with better outcomes from the schools that do better, will have more demand that kids go there, and their ways of doing things will be studied, and adopted much like how competition in anything brings the best to the top....

justabubba said:

not so certain it was the class

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This is where I need the middle finger smiley....:mrgreen:

j-mac said:

Well, it was a long time ago, and I couldn't remember whether it was 5th, or 3rd....I just remember driving to school with my dad that had me drill them every morning....But yeah, I guess you're right, it was 3rd....

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Sure it was, j-mac, sure it was. Wait... driving to school with your dad? Didn't you have to walk to school, five miles, uphill both ways, through the snow?

j-mac said:

That's simple. Students with better outcomes from the schools that do better, will have more demand that kids go there, and their ways of doing things will be studied, and adopted much like how competition in anything brings the best to the top....

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Exactly what needs to be done. Get rid of district boundaries. Get rid of the Department of Education and all of the layers of bureaucracy. Get rid of the big end of year test everyone obsesses over. If the school is not doing the job, enough parents will know and will find a better school. Poorly performing schools will close or open under new management, just like the local supermarket. Good schools will get better through competition.

Dittohead not! said:

Sure it was, j-mac, sure it was. Wait... driving to school with your dad? Didn't you have to walk to school, five miles, uphill both ways, through the snow?

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heh, heh...Guess I walked into the opening there....:lol: But, walking to school was junior high....I went to a private elementary school.

Exactly what needs to be done. Get rid of district boundaries. Get rid of the Department of Education and all of the layers of bureaucracy. Get rid of the big end of year test everyone obsesses over. If the school is not doing the job, enough parents will know and will find a better school. Poorly performing schools will close or open under new management, just like the local supermarket. Good schools will get better through competition.

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Absolutely.

j-mac said:

That's simple. Students with better outcomes from the schools that do better, will have more demand that kids go there, and their ways of doing things will be studied, and adopted much like how competition in anything brings the best to the top....

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looking forward to us conservative's 'insights' into that question. would want to see her flesh out her remarks - if such is possible

now to your posts. under leave no child behind, if the school a student was attending was found to be failing, based on the poor student performance tests after three years, that student was eligible to attend another school, even if that school was not in the student's attendance district. at least, that's how it was implemented in my berg
sounds reasonable, doesn't it. kids should not have to attend under-performing schools
the problem is, once the initial three years of testing was up, LOTS of kids' parents were lined up to move their kids to another school, to avoid their under-performing home school. but here is the fly in the ointment: there were no non-failing schools with openings. those kids from failing schools could only move to other failing schools. so much for your (and us conservative's) 'competitive' aspect of public education

justabubba said:

looking forward to us conservative's 'insights' into that question. would want to see her flesh out her remarks - if such is possible

now to your posts. under leave no child behind, if the school a student was attending was found to be failing, based on the poor student performance tests after three years, that student was eligible to attend another school, even if that school was not in the student's attendance district. at least, that's how it was implemented in my berg
sounds reasonable, doesn't it. kids should not have to attend under-performing schools
the problem is, once the initial three years of testing was up, LOTS of kids' parents were lined up to move their kids to another school, to avoid their under-performing home school. but here is the fly in the ointment: there were no non-failing schools with openings. those kids from failing schools could only move to other failing schools. so much for your (and us conservative's) 'competitive' aspect of public education

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What's failing is the test that is supposed to identify "failing' schools. Parents are a much better judge of whether their kids are getting the education that they deserve.

How can you base decisions on a test when more than half of the class is "finished" with a 45 minute timed test in less than ten minutes? The test is not an accurate measure of student achievement.

Dittohead not! said:

What's failing is the test that is supposed to identify "failing' schools. Parents are a much better judge of whether their kids are getting the education that they deserve.

How can you base decisions on a test when more than half of the class is "finished" with a 45 minute timed test in less than ten minutes? The test is not an accurate measure of student achievement.

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this has little to do with the test. that kid who finished in 10 minutes with a superior grade is not being adequately challenged. we are wasting that massive intellectual potential
that kid who finished in 10 minutes and failed showed us the same score he would have accomplished had he spent 45 minutes guessing which bubble to fill in
the tests are actually telling us something. problem is, everyone seems content to ignore what the test results reveal


and i have to disagree with you about the parents knowing which school their child needs to attend in order to receive the education they are entitled to receive. i guarantee you that if folks like al sharpton and jesse jackson could get their hands on the public's money under the ostensible intent to create better schools for our children, they would enrich themselves by providing sorry parents with monetary kickbacks to place their kids in those inferior schools run by the likes of al and jesse. some parents do not value education. and we see a lot of those parents in the lower economic strata ... which is a major part of the reason why they remain poor

my wife was called out of retirement to teach a project lift (gates foundation money supported) school. she comes home every nite with stories about how terribly the school system is run. there is very good intent. but there are lots of well paid staff whose 'contribution' is conducting purposeless meetings to be attended to learn about the latest fad in education circles. it seems talking about education is as useful as dancing about architecture

justabubba said:

this has little to do with the test. that kid who finished in 10 minutes with a superior grade is not being adequately challenged. we are wasting that massive intellectual potential
that kid who finished in 10 minutes and failed showed us the same score he would have accomplished had he spent 45 minutes guessing which bubble to fill in

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The kid who finished in 10 minutes did not read the test. We still don't know whether he could have or not. Go back to a matrix sample, put the questions on a computer, give the kids some incentive to do the best they can to answer the questions correctly, and we'll have valid results that can be used on which to base decisions.

justabubba said:

the tests are actually telling us something. problem is, everyone seems content to ignore what the test results reveal

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They are not telling us what we need to know.

justabubba said:

and i have to disagree with you about the parents knowing which school their child needs to attend in order to receive the education they are entitled to receive. i guarantee you that if folks like al sharpton and jesse jackson could get their hands on the public's money under the ostensible intent to create better schools for our children, they would enrich themselves by providing sorry parents with monetary kickbacks to place their kids in those inferior schools run by the likes of al and jesse. some parents do not value education. and we see a lot of those parents in the lower economic strata ... which is a major part of the reason why they remain poor

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Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson can choose schools for their kids, not for the rest of us.

justabubba said:

my wife was called out of retirement to teach a project lift (gates foundation money supported) school. she comes home every nite with stories about how terribly the school system is run. there is very good intent. but there are lots of well paid staff whose 'contribution' is conducting purposeless meetings to be attended to learn about the latest fad in education circles. it seems talking about education is as useful as dancing about architecture

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Exactly. Those well intentioned and well paid staff are superfluous. Get rid of the layers of bureaucracy, and use the money to educate the children and there will be plenty for smaller classes, aides, computers, whatever is needed to do the job.

j-mac said:

We actually see that today. In my day every kid knew their multiplication tables by heart by the 5th grade, today? We need pictures on cash registers so that kids now how to make change.

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Today, they need to master them before the end of third grade.

Dittohead not! said:

How seriously do the students take the test?

Do they "finish" a 45 minute timed test in less than ten minutes? That's a clue.

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Usually, my ADHD kids finish much faster than they should. I do feel bad for all the kids because after 2 hours of test taking they are all done.

j-mac said:

That's simple. Students with better outcomes from the schools that do better, will have more demand that kids go there, and their ways of doing things will be studied, and adopted much like how competition in anything brings the best to the top....

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Sure, simple. A child who just saw his father break into his house and beat his mother to a pulp will do as well as the child who goes to bed at a normal time in a stable home. When I taught in a disadvantaged school, I once had a child who would go under his desk at least once a day because he had PTSD. I had several that went from foster home to foster home and suffered depression. Some I had were abused so severely, it would make the hair on your back raise. We had a cop car awaiting arrest in two cases due to drug charges. We also had several parents plastered on the wall wanted on drug charges and/or sexual felonies. I could go on and on but I think you get the point.

rabbitcaebannog said:

Sure, simple. A child who just saw his father break into his house and beat his mother to a pulp will do as well as the child who goes to bed at a normal time in a stable home. When I taught in a disadvantaged school, I once had a child who would go under his desk at least once a day because he had PTSD. I had several that went from foster home to foster home and suffered depression. Some I had were abused so severely, it would make the hair on your back raise. We had a cop car awaiting arrest in two cases due to drug charges. We also had several parents plastered on the wall wanted on drug charges and/or sexual felonies. I could go on and on but I think you get the point.

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No, no, that's just making excuses. All of the students have to pass the test, or else the teacher has failed.

justabubba said:

ok, so you care about choice and competition
now share with us how a focus on choice and competition could substantially elevate our public school system

Click to expand...

Choice and competition allows parents to choos the best options for their child. If public schools can't compete-they should be allowed to go under only to be replaced by a more efficient and successful model.

Public education is everything wrong with socialism, a model actually. We have a socialized system, where everyone must pay-regardless of if you even have children. Since there is little competition and a massive resistance to be being held to a standard-scores drop. Teachers form unions to improve conditions for them while claiming to be about the children. Any competition proven to improve outcomes is attacked. And as the problem gets worse and worse, they oppose changes to the system.

Scores drop. We turn out robots. And unions try to guilt the public (always into more for themselves), by appealing to emotion because hey-its for the kids.

Another textbook case-no child left behind. At tremendous expense (that could be spend elsewhere in ways proven to improve outcomes) even the govt admits (after being forced to study, and then hiding the results for nearly 2 years) that NCLB DOES NOT IMPROVE OUTCOMES.

And yet the left still fights for it-because its not about actual education or actual outcomes-its about cosmic justice.

US Conservative said:

Choice and competition allows parents to choos the best options for their child. If public schools can't compete-they should be allowed to go under only to be replaced by a more efficient and successful model.

Public education is everything wrong with socialism, a model actually. We have a socialized system, where everyone must pay-regardless of if you even have children. Since there is little competition and a massive resistance to be being held to a standard-scores drop. Teachers form unions to improve conditions for them while claiming to be about the children. Any competition proven to improve outcomes is attacked. And as the problem gets worse and worse, they oppose changes to the system.

Scores drop. We turn out robots. And unions try to guilt the public (always into more for themselves), by appealing to emotion because hey-its for the kids.

Another textbook case-no child left behind. At tremendous expense (that could be spend elsewhere in ways proven to improve outcomes) even the govt admits (after being forced to study, and then hiding the results for nearly 2 years) that NCLB DOES NOT IMPROVE OUTCOMES.

And yet the left still fights for it-because its not about actual education or actual outcomes-its about cosmic justice.

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Pretty close, except that it's not the unions that started or that supports no child left behind.

j-mac said:

We actually see that today. In my day every kid knew their multiplication tables by heart by the 5th grade, today? We need pictures on cash registers so that kids now how to make change.

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Exactly. And think of that kids adult life-if he can hardly read or do BASIC math-econ, politics, science are all beyond him. It will hurt his kids. It hurts everyone, and liberals (in and out of academia) continue to defend mediocrity.

US Conservative said:

Exactly. And think of that kids adult life-if he can hardly read or do BASIC math-econ, politics, science are all beyond him. It will hurt his kids. It hurts everyone, and liberals (in and out of academia) continue to defend mediocrity.

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Why would it be "liberals" who defend mediocrity? Mediocrity in learning, particularly in the realm of critical thinking, is the mothers milk of right wing rant radio. If it weren't for their easily led audiences, who would believe that liberals are against kids learning basic math, econ, politics, and science?

Dittohead not! said:

Why would it be "liberals" who defend mediocrity? Mediocrity in learning, particularly in the realm of critical thinking, is the mothers milk of right wing rant radio. If it weren't for their easily led audiences, who would believe that liberals are against kids learning basic math, econ, politics, and science?

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You are being silly. Drop the propaganda and look at the objective evidence, buddy.

Your side is the one championing kids NOT being proficient.

US Conservative said:

You are being silly. Drop the propaganda and look at the objective evidence, buddy.

Your side is the one championing kids NOT being proficient.

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"My side?"

Just who are you lumping me in with? I've been arguing that the NCLB test is flawed, that we need to close down the Department of Education, and that schools should compete for students.

Is "your side" opposed to the above, in favor of the Department of Education, the NCLB testing being expanded, and no competition between schools?

Dittohead not! said:

"My side?"

Just who are you lumping me in with? I've been arguing that the NCLB test is flawed, that we need to close down the Department of Education, and that schools should compete for students.

Is "your side" opposed to the above, in favor of the Department of Education, the NCLB testing being expanded, and no competition between schools?

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Your side is the side that doesn't feel American kids can do basic math. Im no fan of the dept of education-its ironic to hear a lefty cry about govt intervention and oversight-and poetic justice as well.

US Conservative said:

Your side is the side that doesn't feel American kids can do basic math. Im no fan of the dept of education-its ironic to hear a lefty cry about govt intervention and oversight-and poetic justice as well.

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Where have I ever said that American kids shouldn't do basic math? All you're doing is making up absurd strawmen, and then lumping everyone who disagrees with anything you say as "liberals" or "leftys" and ascribing to them points of view that they have not expressed.

Newsflash: Not everyone who does not share your point of view on every matter is the same.

US Conservative said:

Choice and competition allows parents to choos the best options for their child. If public schools can't compete-they should be allowed to go under only to be replaced by a more efficient and successful model.

Public education is everything wrong with socialism, a model actually. We have a socialized system, where everyone must pay-regardless of if you even have children. Since there is little competition and a massive resistance to be being held to a standard-scores drop. Teachers form unions to improve conditions for them while claiming to be about the children. Any competition proven to improve outcomes is attacked. And as the problem gets worse and worse, they oppose changes to the system.

Scores drop. We turn out robots. And unions try to guilt the public (always into more for themselves), by appealing to emotion because hey-its for the kids.

Another textbook case-no child left behind. At tremendous expense (that could be spend elsewhere in ways proven to improve outcomes) even the govt admits (after being forced to study, and then hiding the results for nearly 2 years) that NCLB DOES NOT IMPROVE OUTCOMES.

And yet the left still fights for it-because its not about actual education or actual outcomes-its about cosmic justice.

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just as i anticipated
you have no idea how to improve schools
all you have is a litany of gripes about negative outcomes
anyone can gripe and complain
do something different - in this thread, hopefully - and share for us the steps/changes which must be taken/made to improve the education system in the USA ... because we are 'exceptional' after all

justabubba said:

just as i anticipated
you have no idea how to improve schools
all you have is a litany of gripes about negative outcomes
anyone can gripe and complain
do something different - in this thread, hopefully - and share for us the steps/changes which must be taken/made to improve the education system in the USA ... because we are 'exceptional' after all

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Ive already stated what will improve schools-being held to a standard, and competition.