• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Common Core lessons blasted for sneaking politics into elementary classrooms

TML said:
The context that answers are marked correct if they are wrong came from the discussion with sangha which ended with his statement, “showing your work got partial credit even if the final answer was wrong”, as he stated was his experience in school (my reply to that is where you entered the discussion) - and which parallels the directors comments. “[E]ven if they said 3x4=11… …we’re really more focused on the how [rather than the answer being correct]” doesn't sound good coming from a supposed educator, especially regarding 2nd or 3rd grade mathematics. I understand what you are saying; that an educator has to know where in the process the child went wrong, in order to steer them back on course. But I think many people express this incorrectly which leads to giving a child credit, even if they got the answer wrong, for no other reason than showing their work.



I agree
Click to expand...

Then I apologize. I misunderstood what you were saying. Obviously, Sanga's school experience has nothing to do with Common Core assuming he's been out of school for the last 5 years or so. I thought you were referencing CC standards.
 
TML said:
But I think many people express this incorrectly which leads to giving a child credit, even if they got the answer wrong, for no other reason than showing their work.
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, I didn't say the student got full credit for the question. They got partial credit for the part(s) they got right, while losing points for the part(s) they got wrong.
 
There are times when a student should get partial credit for wrong answers. If it is a complex math problem, for example, and the student does everything right, shows an understanding of the problem and the solution, but then misplaces a decimal point, then partial credit is due. The student is not, after all, calculating the course of a moon lander, and, if he were, someone (several someones in fact) would be checking his work to make sure that all of the decimal points are in the right places.

Now, how do you know, when the choice is answer a, b, c, d, or e, and the exam is scored by a machine, whether the student understands the problem or not?
 
This is an example of what many districts are using as a report card since Common Core came into play...

78764439.jpg

Our district was going in that direction too which was really pissing me off. It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too complicated, wordy and too much bookkeeping work for teachers. Thankfully, we're going in a much simpler direction. We're changing letter grades to number grades. There won't be any more averaging grades throughout the quarter with percentages. Grades will be determined by using rubrics created for each area of the report card.

Also bringing homework back will not be part of academic grades - it will be a grade on its own along with effort, participation, punctuality, behavior, etc.
 
Dittohead not! said:
There are times when a student should get partial credit for wrong answers. If it is a complex math problem, for example, and the student does everything right, shows an understanding of the problem and the solution, but then misplaces a decimal point, then partial credit is due. The student is not, after all, calculating the course of a moon lander, and, if he were, someone (several someones in fact) would be checking his work to make sure that all of the decimal points are in the right places.

Now, how do you know, when the choice is answer a, b, c, d, or e, and the exam is scored by a machine, whether the student understands the problem or not?
Click to expand...

Perhaps partial credit might be appropriate in homework and classwork, but for tests (evaluative not formative) I disagree.
 
US Conservative said:
Perhaps partial credit might be appropriate in homework and classwork, but for tests (evaluative not formative) I disagree.
Click to expand...

Giving partial credit does make grading a test a bit more subjective, I'd have to agree. On the other hand, the multiple guess, pick answer a b c or d sort of test, while objective, is quite limited in what it can measure. Moreover, if the student doesn't care what sort of a grade he gets on the test, as is the case with the end of the year tests, then the score is meaningless anyway.
 
US Conservative said:
Perhaps partial credit might be appropriate in homework and classwork, but for tests (evaluative not formative) I disagree.
Click to expand...
but if the student showed on the descriptive portion of the test how to solve the problem and entered the wrong answer only because of a common arithmetic error, having nothing to do with knowing how to solve the problem, why would the student not have then displayed a knowledge of the material being tested
 
trfjr said:
Common Core lessons blasted for sneaking politics into elementary classrooms | Fox News

And this is how liberalism gained a foot hold in todays politics. with them propagandizing our children over the generations. why do you think most teachers and college professor lean to the left

"Whoever controls youth, controls the future" was the slogan, given the German National club to the Communist thieves' den.
Click to expand...

well you know that slogan is right. Impose a few hints every now and then, insert ideas of loyalty to the president, and suddenly you have a generation willing to do anything this president and the next and the next says to.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Giving partial credit does make grading a test a bit more subjective, I'd have to agree. On the other hand, the multiple guess, pick answer a b c or d sort of test, while objective, is quite limited in what it can measure. Moreover, if the student doesn't care what sort of a grade he gets on the test, as is the case with the end of the year tests, then the score is meaningless anyway.
Click to expand...

Im not against it for being subjective-Im against it for being the wrong answer. Math is about getting the right answer. Its one subject were the end result is what really matters.
There are better subjects for different testing formats, composition for example. Even if the student doesent care, we have a duty to measure achievement.
 
US Conservative said:
Im not against it for being subjective-Im against it for being the wrong answer. Math is about getting the right answer. Its one subject were the end result is what really matters.
There are better subjects for different testing formats, composition for example. Even if the student doesent care, we have a duty to measure achievement.
Click to expand...

Agreed, we have a duty to measure achievement. Wouldn't it be best to use an accurate measure, however?
 
justabubba said:
but if the student showed on the descriptive portion of the test how to solve the problem and entered the wrong answer only because of a common arithmetic error, having nothing to do with knowing how to solve the problem, why would the student not have then displayed a knowledge of the material being tested
Click to expand...

That probably will happen, but the fact is the answer is wrong, due to an error. Again, for learning that may be fine, but math is about getting a correct answer. Its the nature of math to on occasion make an error, does not change the fact that its an error.

We need to stop babying our students, especially in the hard sciences. Kids in mud huts in asia can do it-so can ours.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Agreed, we have a duty to measure achievement. Wouldn't it be best to use an accurate measure, however?
Click to expand...

You dont think the one correct answer obtained (however the kid learns it) in math is a fair standard?

There are many subjects where there is flexibility in assessment, but I dont think math is one of them, do you?
 
US Conservative said:
You dont think the one correct answer obtained (however the kid learns it) in math is a fair standard?

There are many subjects where there is flexibility in assessment, but I dont think math is one of them, do you?
Click to expand...

I don't think the standardized tests being used to assess the schools currently are accurately measuring what kids have learned. That is an opinion based on having administered the test many times over the years, and observed student behavior during the tests. Many of them could care less what sort of a score they get. They are bored with the whole thing and just want it over as soon as possible.

Take the test, same questions, same multiple guess answers, use matrix sampling techniques (we used to do that) so that testing is under an hour, better yet, under half an hour, put the questions on a computer, give positive feedback for correct answers, and the scores would adjust to what the students actually know. I think the scores would increase dramatically, but, until it is tried, we won't know for sure.
 
Dittohead not! said:
I don't think the standardized tests being used to assess the schools currently are accurately measuring what kids have learned. That is an opinion based on having administered the test many times over the years, and observed student behavior during the tests. Many of them could care less what sort of a score they get. They are bored with the whole thing and just want it over as soon as possible.

Take the test, same questions, same multiple guess answers, use matrix sampling techniques (we used to do that) so that testing is under an hour, better yet, under half an hour, put the questions on a computer, give positive feedback for correct answers, and the scores would adjust to what the students actually know. I think the scores would increase dramatically, but, until it is tried, we won't know for sure.
Click to expand...

I was initially asking specifically about math tests-where there is one answer.

I take it you are a teacher, I do a bit as well (private vocational school). You seem to think the testing should be fit to the students, and I dont know that I agree. We used to be able to teach kids in one room schoolhouses to a higher standard than today. I dont think the problem is the test. Its multifactorial certainly-but its not the test, though yes-no test is perfect.

You mention assessing the school-I was talking about assessing the student. I think we both agree whats best for the student is what matters most. Might I ask what you think of private schools and home schooling?

Also, Id be interested in your thoughts on this video-yes Im serious btw.
 
US Conservative said:
That probably will happen, but the fact is the answer is wrong, due to an error. Again, for learning that may be fine, but math is about getting a correct answer. Its the nature of math to on occasion make an error, does not change the fact that its an error.

We need to stop babying our students, especially in the hard sciences. Kids in mud huts in asia can do it-so can ours.
Click to expand...

the purpose of the test to to evaluate the knowledge of the student
if the student exhibited knowledge of the problem solving process, but provided an incorrect answer resulting from a minor arithmetic error, then what we have learned is the student has mastered that material regardless of the minor error
this is not about coddling. this is about making a proper evaluation of the student's knowledge
 
US Conservative said:
I was initially asking specifically about math tests-where there is one answer.
Click to expand...

Yes, there is one answer. If you want to assess where the student really is, however, getting the correct answer isn't the only thing to look at. Students are assessed in order to guide instruction.

US Conservative said:
I take it you are a teacher, I do a bit as well (private vocational school). You seem to think the testing should be fit to the students, and I dont know that I agree. We used to be able to teach kids in one room schoolhouses to a higher standard than today. I dont think the problem is the test. Its multifactorial certainly-but its not the test, though yes-no test is perfect.
Click to expand...

That we used to teach in a one room school to a higher standard is a myth. It is one that has been perpetuated off and on, but a myth nonetheless. We were able to get more memorization, to be sure, but not as much real learning.



US Conservative said:
You mention assessing the school-I was talking about assessing the student. I think we both agree whats best for the student is what matters most.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, what is best for the student is what matters most.
The test is not for the purpose of assessing the student, not the CC test we've been talking about. It is for the purpose of assessing the school, the teacher, and the principal. It does a poor job of assessment, for the reasons I've given.



US Conservative said:
Might I ask what you think of private schools and home schooling?
Click to expand...

I have had some conflicting experience with home schooling. One student who had been home schooled entered my classroom for the first time, and was quickly at the top of the class. Another was a little Yemeni girl whose parents hadn't sent her to school because she was a girl. She spoke only Arabic, and could not read, write, or do math. Her parents soon took her out to "home school" her. It all depends on the parents.

Private schools are also a mixed bag. Some are quite good, others not so much, just like the public schools. The difference is that public schools have to accept every student who lives in the district.

An interesting aside about parents and their opinions of public schools: They tend to think that the public school system is terrible, but their neighborhood school is great. That isn't always the case, of course, but more often than not, it is.

US Conservative said:
Also, Id be interested in your thoughts on this video-yes Im serious btw.
Click to expand...


The video is propaganda perpetuating the myth that teachers can't be fired and that the unions make sure that they can't. Teachers are fired all the time, unions or not. Yes, once a teacher has proven himself/herself for three years, firing them becomes difficult, as well it should be.

I personally would not enter the classroom without union protection, and it has nothing to do with being fired. It has to do with the fact that all a student has to do is point a finger and say, "he touched me", and the teacher is in a fight for his career and maybe his freedom. There doesn't have to be anything at all to the accusation, but it will take a strong defense to fight, which costs a lot of money. The school district is not going to back up the teacher, so the non union teacher has to either put up everything he owns, or trust his fate to a public defender. Scary, not fair, but reality.
 
justabubba said:
the purpose of the test to to evaluate the knowledge of the student
if the student exhibited knowledge of the problem solving process, but provided an incorrect answer resulting from a minor arithmetic error, then what we have learned is the student has mastered that material regardless of the minor error
this is not about coddling. this is about making a proper evaluation of the student's knowledge
Click to expand...

Not really, he hasn't mastered it-he made an error.
He may learned much of it-but thats not the same thing.
Id add to your first line-the purpose of the test is to evaluate the knowledge of a student OBJECTIVELY.

Again, kids in one roomed school houses could do this a century ago-with the SAME material. Stop defending the incorrect answer, its part of the problem.
 
US Conservative said:
Not really, he hasn't mastered it-he made an error.
He may learned much of it-but thats not the same thing.
Id add to your first line-the purpose of the test is to evaluate the knowledge of a student OBJECTIVELY.

Again, kids in one roomed school houses could do this a century ago-with the SAME material. Stop defending the incorrect answer, its part of the problem.
Click to expand...
'
no one is defending the wrong answer
what could be learned a century ago in a one room school house is immaterial
what has been presented is that the test instrument provides a valid indication of the student's mastery of the material if the student demonstrates knowledge of the process o solve for the answer
such is not the case when the student merely has to select from four provided options
 
Dittohead not! said:
Yes, there is one answer. If you want to assess where the student really is, however, getting the correct answer isn't the only thing to look at. Students are assessed in order to guide instruction.

ONE reason students are assessed is to guide instruction-its also evaluation teacher competency and of the school meeting its obligations.

That we used to teach in a one room school to a higher standard is a myth. It is one that has been perpetuated off and on, but a myth nonetheless. We were able to get more memorization, to be sure, but not as much real learning. Id love to see some citations of that, please--its the first Ive heard of that-and if its true I want to know about it.





Absolutely, what is best for the student is what matters most.
The test is not for the purpose of assessing the student, not the CC test we've been talking about. It is for the purpose of assessing the school, the teacher, and the principal. It does a poor job of assessment, for the reasons I've given.
Dont make a mistake-im no fan of common core. I wasn't thrilled about no child left behind until I found that it raised scores. But since it did-it should be defended.




I have had some conflicting experience with home schooling. One student who had been home schooled entered my classroom for the first time, and was quickly at the top of the class. Another was a little Yemeni girl whose parents hadn't sent her to school because she was a girl. She spoke only Arabic, and could not read, write, or do math. Her parents soon took her out to "home school" her. It all depends on the parents.
Here in california the teachers unions are actively against home schooling, despite higher scores by 30% or so.

Private schools are also a mixed bag. Some are quite good, others not so much, just like the public schools. The difference is that public schools have to accept every student who lives in the district.
You dont think the parents of troubled kids wouldnt support a private school if it raised scores? Are you for vouchers?
An interesting aside about parents and their opinions of public schools: They tend to think that the public school system is terrible, but their neighborhood school is great. That isn't always the case, of course, but more often than not, it is.
Not surprised to hear that. Its a good thing objective standards exist for this reason amongst others.


The video is propaganda perpetuating the myth that teachers can't be fired and that the unions make sure that they can't. Teachers are fired all the time, unions or not. Yes, once a teacher has proven himself/herself for three years, firing them becomes difficult, as well it should be.
Sorry I live in southern california-its exceedingly difficult to fire teachers, they are often paid for years before they can be fired, how does 3 years of competency mean someone should be hard to fire?
I personally would not enter the classroom without union protection, and it has nothing to do with being fired. It has to do with the fact that all a student has to do is point a finger and say, "he touched me", and the teacher is in a fight for his career and maybe his freedom. There doesn't have to be anything at all to the accusation, but it will take a strong defense to fight, which costs a lot of money. The school district is not going to back up the teacher, so the non union teacher has to either put up everything he owns, or trust his fate to a public defender. Scary, not fair, but reality.
Click to expand...
This has always been a problem, but what you are saying is the union is there for you, not the student. Im fine with that, I just hear many special interest groups say they are benevolent caretakers of the people when really its about them.
 
US Conservative said:
This has always been a problem, but what you are saying is the union is there for you, not the student. Im fine with that, I just hear many special interest groups say they are benevolent caretakers of the people when really its about them.
Click to expand...

please don't derail this thread and turn into another rant about unions
 
justabubba said:
'
no one is defending the wrong answer
what could be learned a century ago in a one room school house is immaterial
what has been presented is that the test instrument provides a valid indication of the student's mastery of the material if the student demonstrates knowledge of the process o solve for the answer
such is not the case when the student merely has to select from four provided options
Click to expand...

So make the answer a write in, or bubble in. Hows that sound?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom