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'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

Hey, look...it's that person too busy to play team politics he cannot answer a simple question.

Let me know when you're ready to answer my question and I'll be happy to move onto whatever direction you want. Otherwise, your attempt at ignoring the truth remains painfully obvious.

Why don't you stop with the partisan BS buying that Obamcare is reparable and tell us exactly what you like about the law? I don' think the bill is reparable therefore not sure what you would have me show. If you want to know what the Republicans have offered, the answer is NOTHING because the law isn't reparable. Now answer the question
 
Likely because they knew reform was needed and their party leaders told them to.
"Likely"? That suggests you don't know why it was passed either and knowing it needed reform suggests further that it never should have been passed at all.
Absolutely. It should also be represented honestly to the American public, which both sides have failed to do.
Both sides? The Republicans voted solidly against it. That is certainly to their credit. Passing bills of this magnitude which weren't even read or understood will reside with the Democrats.

No. Bipartisan support has nothing to do with our system of government, it is a cog which has been added by big money groups (currently Republicans and Democrats).
Didn't Barrack Obama call for bipartisan support and shouldn't have tried to achieve it? That's what real leaders would have done rather than what's being served up now.
No, if that is how we wished for our government to work, then we wouldn't need representatives. Instead, the American people elected a majority of one party in all three elective sections of government, putting their trust into those they elected they will serve the interests of Americans.
That's incorrect.
Does it suck when the policies you believe in are not supported by the majority party? Absolutely. But our history shows one political party doesn't hold power for a relatively long time.

Who really cares if it sucks for any political party? Shouldn't the welfare of the country come first? And this mess will live with the American people for a very long while.

Yes, just like any and all legislation. It was passed to appease people politically and to better a previously flawed system. No one disputes our healthcare industry was in shambles before. Everyone agrees. Obamacare was passed to fix it. Time alone will tell if it improves our situation.
yes, it was passed for political and ideological reasons but this "shambles" you speak of was the best in the world. Not perfect, but this was not 'reform' as was being sold. This is destruction.

It's the only way to run a country. The Republicans do not dispute our system before was not working. But what they seem to want to do is go back to it and then basically keep it that way for another few decades. Oh, I know some posters will present links to a reform Republicans supposedly support, but Republicans did not pass it even when they were the party in power. What Republicans want to do (if I may borrow a phrase from Krauthammer on the Daily Show) is to govern by minority. Unfortunately, and much to the chagrin of whichever party is in power, our government does not work that way.

So, if the Republicans were truly interested in helping Americans (which everyone knows political parties are only in it to help themselves), they would offer up improvements to Obamacare, which at the very least could make things "better". You work to make the best of a bad situation, until you gain enough power to change the situation.

But, as I said, Republicans don't want to improve Obamacare, because if they offer improvements which work, the American citizen is not likely to give them credit for the improvement, but rather praise Democrats for the original passage. This works against the Republicans political interest, so they do not want to improve it. And just to be clear, if the situations were reversed, the Democrats would do the same thing.

So in your mind it's all about either Democrats or Republicans getting their way and the economy and the long term interests of the people and the country doesn't appear to be much of a factor. That is not uncommon these days.
 
In retrospect the WH girls and guys must be crazy or insanely ignorant of things developing right under their noses. How could they whip up emotions about delaying ACA at a time, when it must have been blattently clear to anyone near the program that it was in for severe stress and backfire? Why did they not blame the Republicans for taking away medicine for the poor? They would have made monsters of the Conservative.

But no! They pressure the thing through, close government and upset the world in order to show of their viral incompetence. This is staggering. What happened?

Oh, they''ll do that anyway. The thing you have to understand about this bunch, is the old mantra, "by any means necessary." When this fails, and it will, as designed, they will move to single payer by force, as a crisis mitigation. Obama alrady projected that in 2008, at least 7 times.
 
Why don't you stop with the partisan BS buying that Obamcare is reparable and tell us exactly what you like about the law? I don' think the bill is reparable therefore not sure what you would have me show. If you want to know what the Republicans have offered, the answer is NOTHING because the law isn't reparable. Now answer the question

But, that is exactly what repubs will do though isn't it? Look, I think you know that I don't like what is going on here, but the likely push by repubs by 2016 will be, "elect us, because we can manage it better.." We have no real voice today.
 
No, it has not. It's been answered once and I'm not being disingenuous at all.

Ya, one time where you got the wrong answer you were hoping for, and a few times where you were told the actual answer that you rejected because it wouldn't allow you to make the point you are trying to make, so then you clarified making sure that proposals made were excluded (a disingenuous question) baiting for the answer that allows you to make that point.

Then over a dozen times you were told the ideal answer, knowing that this is not going to happen...

But just stop with the broken record routine.

You clearly have not followed the discussion, you didn't even know the question when you quoted it. And your nonsense you and Conservative are pushing that something which is flawed cannot have improvements defies logic.

Next time write what you mean and you'll get a response along your expectations...

The fact is you don't want to answer the question either, for what I assume are the same reasons. What's more, I find it incredibly sad you don't want to answer the question even though it's already been answered by others for you, which I think just goes to show you're not interested in logic or facts, merely team politics.

I have no "team"... Look, I'm not even against socialized healthcare per se, which, Obama could have done by simply nationalizing the insurance industry, if the system is that much in disrepair, just nationalize it and allocate an appropriate budget worth of taxes and have "federal insurance" that you would get by default... If you are going to have socialized healthcare, there are at least 5-10 other countries that have a reasonably good model. (not without their own problems mind you, but still).

I'm not republican, but whenever a democrat is in power I'm a republican, when bush was in I was a democrat.

If I have a team; it's team constitution or team republic.

Let me know when you're ready to discuss my actual question. Thanks.

You'll have to put down your copy of rules for radicals for a few minutes before we can get to an honest discussion.
 
But, that is exactly what repubs will do though isn't it? Look, I think you know that I don't like what is going on here, but the likely push by repubs by 2016 will be, "elect us, because we can manage it better.." We have no real voice today.

Enhancing State Rights would seem to be the only option available, if it is possible. Perhaps by the time of the next Presidential elections the people will realize what happened but by then it will be argued again that 'rights' are being removed. Of course it will also be racist and a war on woman to take down Obamacare, and enough people might still buy that. I certainly share your concerns.
 
Oh, they''ll do that anyway. The thing you have to understand about this bunch, is the old mantra, "by any means necessary." When this fails, and it will, as designed, they will move to single payer by force, as a crisis mitigation. Obama alrady projected that in 2008, at least 7 times.

Remember good old Rahm?? Like he said "can't let a good crisis go to waste".
 
But, that is exactly what repubs will do though isn't it? Look, I think you know that I don't like what is going on here, but the likely push by repubs by 2016 will be, "elect us, because we can manage it better.." We have no real voice today.

We may have the most uneducated electorate today in history since results don't matter. I would make a poster of the economic numbers that Obama inherited and post the numbers today. How anyone can support those results is beyond comprehension
 
No, it was perfectly. The Congress was asked to vote on 2400 pages of legislation, it just happened that 906 pages of it were healthcare related.
Which means the healthcare legislation was 900 pages. This isn't hard to understand.
If you want to know what the Republicans have offered, the answer is NOTHING
Wow, someone ought to check the temperature in hell, because Conservative finally was able to admit the truth when it works against Republicans. This is a big day for you, maybe you can use this as a launch pad towards future discussions.

tell us exactly what you like about the law?
A) I like knowing insurance companies can't screw their customers by charging high premiums and not paying out (80% of premiums must be spent, or refunds granted)
B) I like knowing that as our country has made a sizable shift towards putting people in institutions of higher education, parents can keep their children on their insurance for an extra year
C) I like knowing people with debilitating medical conditions can no longer be denied health coverage
D) I like knowing all insurance plans are required to cover at least the "essential health benefits", which prevents insurance companies from charging premiums while covering almost nothing.
E) I like knowing I'm much less likely to be paying for those people who don't buy insurance and simply go to the emergency room for free healthcare.

Now, you finally admitted the truth and finally answered my question. I suppose I shouldn't expect you to answer these questions without having to watch you avoid them for 15 posts, but I'll ask any way. Here's two more questions for you.

1) Now that you have all but admitted Republicans are basically acting like children by not offering any improvements to legislation they claim is bad (by the way, your assertion legislation can be so broken nothing can be fixed is completely laughable and we both know it), but legislation everyone knows is not going anywhere for the foreseeable future, would you agree Republicans are basically contributing nothing to the benefit of Americans? Obamacare isn't going anywhere, so a mature adult would say, "Let's make the best of what we feel is a bad situation. Let's at least do 'this, this and this'.". Do you agree Republicans are not doing anything to help Americans, by throwing a tantrum about not getting something they've known they weren't going to get?

In summary, at what point does a Republican politician have a duty to be realistic and say, "I don't like Obamacare, I don't want Obamacare, but I'll do what I can to make it the best for Americans until I have the power to repeal it"?

2) You keep talking about personal responsibility, but you keep advocating to remove Obamacare, which would put us back with the system we had previously in which people like me with insurance were paying higher premiums to cover all the people who receive free healthcare in the emergency room. What could be more personally responsible then paying for your own healthcare (at least some of it, if not all), and not relying on everyone else to subsidize your free health care?

If you truly believe in personal responsiblity, you should be celebrating the idea of everyone having to pay for insurance, and not have people like me subsidize free emergency room visits. So why do you keep talking about personal responsibility, but advocate a system where I have to pay increased premiums to cover free emergency room visits?


There are two more questions for you. I suspect it'll take another 15 posts or so for you to answer them directly, but hey, you made great strides with your last post. Maybe you'll surprise me by discussing this reasonably and not falling back on Republican rhetoric.
 
Cont'd due to post character limits...

"Likely"? That suggests you don't know why it was passed either and knowing it needed reform suggests further that it never should have been passed at all.
No, it suggests I have not interviewed every single Congress person who voted against it to be able to provide you with their specific answer. Don't read more into my answer than is there.

I can tell you why I would have voted for it, but I cannot tell you the specific motivations of each person who voted yay. As far as the reform part goes, I was referring to how the system before Obamacare desperately needed reform.

Both sides? The Republicans voted solidly against it.
And have spent the last three years spreading lies and mistruths about it, not to mention getting numerous states to fight the implementation of it so they could claim it was a failure.

So yes, both sides have failed to discuss it honestly.

Didn't Barrack Obama call for bipartisan support
Maybe? I don't care if he did or not, it has nothing to do with how our system of government technically works. A piece of legislation does not need bipartisan support, it simply needs to pass according to the rules set forth in the chamber it is being presented.

That's what real leaders would have done rather than what's being served up now.
The "real leader" nonsense is simply nonsense. Republicans had no interest in working with President Obama and never have. They made it priority number 1 to make sure nothing gets done under his Presidency.

A real leader is someone in charge of a group who have an interest in being led. The Republican Party had no such interest.

That's incorrect.
No, it's not.

Who really cares if it sucks for any political party? Shouldn't the welfare of the country come first?
Yes, but you know as well as I do those people who voted for the Democrats who passed this legislation did so because they felt the people they voted for would best serve the welfare of this country.

You're coming at this as if your opinion Obamacare is terrible is a fact. It's not, it's simply your political viewpoint. There are many many other people who feel what we have is much better than what we had, even if it's not quite what they ultimately want.

yes, it was passed for political and ideological reasons but this "shambles" you speak of was the best in the world. Not perfect, but this was not 'reform' as was being sold. This is destruction.
The best in the world? By what metric? The cost effectiveness of US healthcare is one of the worst in the developed world. Do we have brilliant doctors and access to some of the best medicine? Absolutely, but usually only if you have the money to spend. But our country spends more than almost every other developed country in the world, and in return rank very low on efficiency.

It's remarkable how low America places in health care efficiency: among the 48 countries included in the Bloomberg study, the U.S. ranks 46th, outpacing just Serbia and Brazil. Once that sinks in, try this one on for size: the U.S. ranks worse than China, Algeria, and Iran.

But the sheer numbers are really what's humbling about this list: the U.S. ranks second in health care cost per capita ($8,608), only to be outspent by Switzerland ($9,121) -- which, for the record, boasts a top-10 health care system in terms of efficiency. Furthermore, the U.S. is tops in terms of health care cost relative to GDP, with 17.2 percent of the country's wealth spent on medical care for every American.


In other words, the world's richest country spends more of its money on health care while getting less than almost every other nation in return.
The Most Efficient Health Care Systems In The World (INFOGRAPHICS)

Our system was not the best in the world, not even close.


So in your mind it's all about either Democrats or Republicans getting their way
No, that's how it works in reality. I can't stand people who play team politics, who seem to only care about regurgitating a political party talking points while never giving a rat's ass about the facts. But I'm also realistic about the fact it's just the way our system is currently being run.

and the economy and the long term interests of the people and the country doesn't appear to be much of a factor.
Of course not, the only factor which matters to most of these politicians is serving the interests of the big money donors. Being a Congress person is about getting rich, not about serving the interests of this country.

But, within that system, we have to take what we can get. The healthcare system we had before Obamacare had to go. There's no question reform was absolutely needed. And the system we have now, if tweaked to improve the areas where the flaws are egregious, could be a better system than what we had. Only time will tell if it truly will be better.
Ya, one time where you got the wrong answer you were hoping for, and a few times where you were told the actual answer that you rejected because it wouldn't allow you to make the point you are trying to make, so then you clarified making sure that proposals made were excluded (a disingenuous question) baiting for the answer that allows you to make that point.
It was the same question I asked from the very beginning.

Now, tell me...aside from getting rid of Obamacare, exactly what improvements have Republicans formally proposed? The medical device tax? Okay, it's something which seems to have support on both sides of the aisle. It will likely be amended. What else have Republicans proposed?

That was the very first post I asked the question. You can go back and double check if you'd like. I'll await your apology for making a provably false statement.

Also, I await your apology for claiming I lied about something I said to you. You seem to have quit trying to claim that I have, so I can only assume you realize you were wrong in saying so. So I'll await both of your apologies in your next post.
 
Slyfox696;1062487722]Which means the healthcare legislation was 900 pages. This isn't hard to understand.
Wow, someone ought to check the temperature in hell, because Conservative finally was able to admit the truth when it works against Republicans. This is a big day for you, maybe you can use this as a launch pad towards future discussions.


A) I like knowing insurance companies can't screw their customers by charging high premiums and not paying out (80% of premiums must be spent, or refunds granted)
B) I like knowing that as our country has made a sizable shift towards putting people in institutions of higher education, parents can keep their children on their insurance for an extra year
C) I like knowing people with debilitating medical conditions can no longer be denied health coverage
D) I like knowing all insurance plans are required to cover at least the "essential health benefits", which prevents insurance companies from charging premiums while covering almost nothing.
E) I like knowing I'm much less likely to be paying for those people who don't buy insurance and simply go to the emergency room for free healthcare.



Wow, you really bought the Administration spin. Amazing how someone has so much confidence in a Federal Govt. that has trillions in unfunded mandates for Medicare, is watching doctors and hospitals dropping Medicare, has millions of people having their insurance dropped magnifying the Obama lies.

You are indeed getting a transformed America into that European socialist model that is bankrupt. It is sad seeing how brainwashed you and others are. Why do you have so much faith in a Federal Govt. that has trillions in unfunded liabilities, has had millions of cancellation notices going out which magnifies the Obama lies, and is 17 trillion in debt?

Now, you finally admitted the truth and finally answered my question. I suppose I shouldn't expect you to answer these questions without having to watch you avoid them for 15 posts, but I'll ask any way. Here's two more questions for you.

1) Now that you have all but admitted Republicans are basically acting like children by not offering any improvements to legislation they claim is bad (by the way, your assertion legislation can be so broken nothing can be fixed is completely laughable and we both know it), but legislation everyone knows is not going anywhere for the foreseeable future, would you agree Republicans are basically contributing nothing to the benefit of Americans? Obamacare isn't going anywhere, so a mature adult would say, "Let's make the best of what we feel is a bad situation. Let's at least do 'this, this and this'.". Do you agree Republicans are not doing anything to help Americans, by throwing a tantrum about not getting something they've known they weren't going to get?

In summary, at what point does a Republican politician have a duty to be realistic and say, "I don't like Obamacare, I don't want Obamacare, but I'll do what I can to make it the best for Americans until I have the power to repeal it"?

Actually it is you acting like a child, the Republicans are doing what the public elected them to do. obamacare has less than a 45% approval rating and wait until you see Obama's rating in the next week or so when the news hits about the millions losing healthcare coverage.

The Republicans are doing something to Help Americans, trying to defund and repeal Obamacare. that is the answer to your question number one. You think Obamacare once implemented is going to be easy to repeal? How naïve are you? You have no idea what is in the bill but I am sure you will grow up one day, I did.



2) You keep talking about personal responsibility, but you keep advocating to remove Obamacare, which would put us back with the system we had previously in which people like me with insurance were paying higher premiums to cover all the people who receive free healthcare in the emergency room. What could be more personally responsible then paying for your own healthcare (at least some of it, if not all), and not relying on everyone else to subsidize your free health care?

If you truly believe in personal responsiblity, you should be celebrating the idea of everyone having to pay for insurance, and not have people like me subsidize free emergency room visits. So why do you keep talking about personal responsibility, but advocate a system where I have to pay increased premiums to cover free emergency room visits?

I don't think it is the government's place to force people to buy health insurance but I do believe it is the individuals responsibility to pay for the services they use. I employed over 1200 employees, offered both full and part time employees full healthcare benefits and we paid most of the cost, 50% chose to participate. Should I have forced the other 50% to participate? Do you understand freedom at all? How can anyone support freedom of choice and then support Obamacare?
 
Although they are stopping short of delaying the individual mandate, it is clear now that the WH is severely nervous about the roll out, and what their tantrum over the shut down, and their refusal to even negotiate the delay is now going to cost them politically.

This may have turned out to be the most brilliant strategy of the TEA Party to date...Think about it...Cruz, and the rest, have solidly established the republican party as the party against Obamacare, and the individual mandate. Now, it is failing right out of the gate, and those in the know, are saying that there are worse problems as it continues to go into effect. Setting up the antics of demo's, of refusing to talk, name calling, and the whole gambit of basic Alinsky tactics that demo's today employ as reasons NOT to vote for them any time in the future.

Obama's Job Approval Declines to 44.5% in 19th Quarter

Poll: Nearly half say replace everyone in Congress

I think demo's are in for a rough 2014, and 2016...It is possible to see the house majority strengthen, and the loss of the Senate to repub control in 2014, regardless of the MSM running cover for demo's as expected.

What say you?

I suppose the best part of OBamacare now is "competition" - it's like getting tickets to cubs games.... Maybe if they opened up box offices they'd have people sleeping on the street and **** like tyring to get a ps4 or the newest Iphone.
 
Maybe you'll surprise me by discussing this reasonably and not falling back on Republican rhetoric.
Wow, you really bought the Administration spin. Amazing how someone has so much confidence in a Federal Govt. that has trillions in unfunded mandates for Medicare, is watching doctors and hospitals dropping Medicare, has millions of people having their insurance dropped magnifying the Obama lies.

You are indeed getting a transformed America into that European socialist model that is bankrupt. It is sad seeing how brainwashed you and others are. Why do you have so much faith in a Federal Govt. that has trillions in unfunded liabilities, has had millions of cancellation notices going out which magnifies the Obama lies, and is 17 trillion in debt?
I knew it was unlikely, but I'm disappointed all the same. I thought we turned a corner, where you'd leave the useless rhetoric out and simply discuss facts, but apparently you're uncomfortable doing so. It's okay, every team needs cheerleaders and I guess it's possible you fit well in the costume.

So...just how much do you get paid to post that same stupid and false nonsense over and over? Or is it just something you do when you realize you have no real counter argument to salient points made by your opponent, a type of defensive mechanism, if you will?

The Republicans are doing something to Help Americans
No, they are not, they are throwing a temper tantrum because they are not getting their way. It is utterly stupid to think repeal is going to happen while Democrats control the Senate and Presidency, and yet, as you have admitted, Republicans keep doing said stupid thing.

I don't think it is the government's place to force people to buy health insurance but I do believe it is the individuals responsibility to pay for the services they use. I employed over 1200 employees, offered both full and part time employees full healthcare benefits and we paid most of the cost, 50% chose to participate. Should I have forced the other 50% to participate? Do you understand freedom at all? How can anyone support freedom of choice and then support Obamacare?
I understand freedom just fine. I also understand reality. For example...

For those who cannot afford health insurance or healthcare but encounter an event where they need it, should they A) go to the emergency room without paying, which drive up medical costs, which force my premium higher or B) simply die?

Because that's really the only two options they had before Obamacare. Either force people like me to pay for their healthcare or do without, which could in some cases lead to death.


You claim to believe in personal responsibility, but you really don't. Someone who truly believes in the concept of personal responsibility would realize that making people cover the cost of their own healthcare needs is the very essence of personal responsibility. Your position is little more than empty Republican rhetoric. Enjoy the cheerleader outfit.
 
No, it suggests I have not interviewed every single Congress person who voted against it to be able to provide you with their specific answer. Don't read more into my answer than is there. I can tell you why I would have voted for it, but I cannot tell you the specific motivations of each person who voted yay.
Then your answer should have been Yes.
No, it suggests I have not inteAs far as the reform part goes, I was referring to how the system before Obamacare desperately needed reform.
Reform, yes. Obamacare, No.
And have spent the last three years spreading lies and mistruths about it, not to mention getting numerous states to fight the implementation of it so they could claim it was a failure.
It has not proven to be a success so far. If, after three years and almost a billion dollars, they cant even set up a web site, how do you think the rest of it will go? But belief remains strong, I suppose.
So yes, both sides have failed to discuss it honestly.
Only one side voted for it, and against public concerns. That would be the Democrats.
Maybe? I don't care if he did or not, it has nothing to do with how our system of government technically works. A piece of legislation does not need bipartisan support, it simply needs to pass according to the rules set forth in the chamber it is being presented.
He did call for bipartisan support but it was never there. And there is a difference between what can be done and what should be done. The American people should always come first.
The "real leader" nonsense is simply nonsense. Republicans had no interest in working with President Obama and never have. They made it priority number 1 to make sure nothing gets done under his Presidency.
It certainly has become nonsense but that was seldom the case in previous administrations. Other presidents have learned how to work within the provisions laid down according to the Constitution. This President has been an obvious failure in that area.
A real leader is someone in charge of a group who have an interest in being led. The Republican Party had no such interest.
It shouldn't need to be said that Barrack Obama is not the leader of the Republican party.
Yes, but you know as well as I do those people who voted for the Democrats who passed this legislation did so because they felt the people they voted for would best serve the welfare of this country.
They wanted free stuff, like their Obamaphones and food stamps. Those Democrats who voted for Obamacare had no idea what was in it, much less their constituents.
You're coming at this as if your opinion Obamacare is terrible is a fact. It's not, it's simply your political viewpoint. There are many many other people who feel what we have is much better than what we had, even if it's not quite what they ultimately want.
Does it need to be pointed out that, so far, t has been a divisive and expensive boondoggle? It is being supported by those who have faith moreso than those who have an understanding of fiscal realities.
The best in the world? By what metric? The cost effectiveness of US healthcare is one of the worst in the developed world. Do we have brilliant doctors and access to some of the best medicine? Absolutely, but usually only if you have the money to spend. But our country spends more than almost every other developed country in the world, and in return rank very low on efficiency.
And you feel that Obamacare will turn that around? The fact remains that wealthy Canadians, Europeans, etc, went to the US for their health care problems and the poor were always looked after. Allowing non citizens free health care probably cost the previous system more than anything but this was largely supported by liberals, and of course will eventually bust any system.
Our system was not the best in the world, not even close.
You're probably not all that familiar with other health care systems but whatever shortcomings there might have been will not be solved by this Obama do over.
No, that's how it works in reality. I can't stand people who play team politics, who seem to only care about regurgitating a political party talking points while never giving a rat's ass about the facts. But I'm also realistic about the fact it's just the way our system is currently being run.
More free enterprise in the health care system and tort reform would have helped the previous system but it is now too lae fr that. And there is no tort reform so who will be paying the John Edwards ambulance chasers now?
Of course not, the only factor which matters to most of these politicians is serving the interests of the big money donors. Being a Congress person is about getting rich, not about serving the interests of this country.
That's certainly true about the President.
But, within that system, we have to take what we can get. The healthcare system we had before Obamacare had to go. There's no question reform was absolutely needed. And the system we have now, if tweaked to improve the areas where the flaws are egregious, could be a better system than what we had. Only time will tell if it truly will be better.
Yes, we'll see. But I'd say its off to a very rocky and expensive start, few know where the truth lies and few know what the consequences might be. It truly is a leap of faith, which doesn't seem a very responsible thing to me.
 
I knew it was unlikely, but I'm disappointed all the same. I thought we turned a corner, where you'd leave the useless rhetoric out and simply discuss facts, but apparently you're uncomfortable doing so. It's okay, every team needs cheerleaders and I guess it's possible you fit well in the costume.

So...just how much do you get paid to post that same stupid and false nonsense over and over? Or is it just something you do when you realize you have no real counter argument to salient points made by your opponent, a type of defensive mechanism, if you will?

No, they are not, they are throwing a temper tantrum because they are not getting their way. It is utterly stupid to think repeal is going to happen while Democrats control the Senate and Presidency, and yet, as you have admitted, Republicans keep doing said stupid thing.


I understand freedom just fine. I also understand reality. For example...

For those who cannot afford health insurance or healthcare but encounter an event where they need it, should they A) go to the emergency room without paying, which drive up medical costs, which force my premium higher or B) simply die?

Because that's really the only two options they had before Obamacare. Either force people like me to pay for their healthcare or do without, which could in some cases lead to death.


You claim to believe in personal responsibility, but you really don't. Someone who truly believes in the concept of personal responsibility would realize that making people cover the cost of their own healthcare needs is the very essence of personal responsibility. Your position is little more than empty Republican rhetoric. Enjoy the cheerleader outfit.

Grow up, kid, one of these days it is going to happen. You don't understand freedom at all. How can a group of people support a woman's right to choose, a person's right to marry whoever they want, and not support a person's right not to have health insurance?

You don't seem to understand personal responsibility at all for if you did you would understand that personal choice is part of that personal responsibility.
 
Then your answer should have been Yes.
No, my answer(s) should have been exactly what I said they were.

Reform, yes. Obamacare, No.
That's certainly your opinion and you are certainly welcome to it. There are many people who agree. There are also people who think we should have gone all the way with a single payer system.

Personally, I think once all the political rhetoric falls to the wayside, people will realize, much like any legislation, there are good parts of Obamacare and bad parts. Somewhere down the line, "reform" will be proposed and maybe passed, but a reform which keeps many elements of Obamacare.
It has not proven to be a success so far.
It hasn't even gone into effect. The enrollment only just started (with terrible implementation, but that's besides the point right now), the corporate piece was delayed...how exactly can legislation be a success before it's even fully implemented?

If, after three years and almost a billion dollars, they cant even set up a web site, how do you think the rest of it will go?
A) The quality of the website has nothing to do with the quality of the legislation. B) There are many factors which have gone into why the website rollout has gone badly. You'll notice those states who set up their own exchanges have had a relatively smooth time of it. If you remember, the law was developed with the idea all states would set up their own online exchanges with the federal website simply being a portal to those state exchanges. The deadline for states to declare if they were creating their own exchange was (I believe) in February of this year, leaving very little time to adjust and change direction. With roughly half the states opting not to build their own exchange website (usually for political reasons), this dramatically altered the direction the federal website was forced to take.

The website is obviously a wreck. It's unacceptable a major rollout of a major piece of major legislation should go this badly. But it's also understandable for why it has gone the way it has.

Only one side voted for it, and against public concerns. That would be the Democrats.
You're changing what we were talking about. I said both sides have spread mistruths about this legislation, and pointed out where Republicans have done so.

Your comment here really has no relevance to the topic of this particular tract of our discussion.

He did call for bipartisan support but it was never there. And there is a difference between what can be done and what should be done. The American people should always come first.
And the American people know what we had before was terrible.

It certainly has become nonsense but that was seldom the case in previous administrations. Other presidents have learned how to work within the provisions laid down according to the Constitution. This President has been an obvious failure in that area.
....are you saying it is the President's fault the Republicans have made the political choice to oppose everything he wants to do?

Ignoring for a moment the broken politics we've had with previous Presidents, I simply do not see how you can put the responsibility of the Republican Party's actions on anyone but the Republican Party.

They wanted free stuff, like their Obamaphones and food stamps.
Both of which were created before Obama and expanded under Republican presidents. If they wanted those things, they should have voted for a Republican. After all, it was Reagan who provided the free phones and Bush who provided the free cell phones.

Those Democrats who voted for Obamacare had no idea what was in it
That's just false. They may not have read the entire thing and they may not understood all the minute details, but to say they had no idea what was in it is simply false. Everyone knew the major parts of what was in it.

Does it need to be pointed out that, so far, t has been a divisive and expensive boondoggle?
Does it need to be pointed out the quality of implementation has nothing to do with the quality of the regulations?

Now I could also get into the more partisan points of how Republicans have done everything they could to ensure it has been divisive and expensive, but it's not really relevant to the more important point of the difference between rollout and effectiveness.

And you feel that Obamacare will turn that around?
I feel we had an absolutely wretched system and Obamacare will improve on many aspects of what made it so terrible.

The fact remains that wealthy Canadians, Europeans, etc, went to the US for their health care problems
Yes, the WEALTHY. I do not dispute in the least the US health care system was great for the WEALTHY.

and the poor were always looked after.
No they weren't. That's utterly false and I could direct you to many people with real life stories to prove it.

You're probably not all that familiar with other health care systems
I'm quite familiar that many of the effective ones resemble Obamacare far more than what we previously had.

More free enterprise in the health care system and tort reform would have helped the previous system
Because it's helped so much in the telecommunications industry, where each year AT&T and Verizon find new ways to screw over existing users by finding new ways to limit their usage while charging them more and higher fees?

Could there have been reforms in the previous system which could have helped? I have no doubt. But we needed something which provided everyone with the opportunity to receive quality healthcare, not simply the ones wealthy enough to afford it.

That's certainly true about the President.
It's true of far too many of them.

Washington's open secret: Profitable PACs - 60 Minutes - CBS News

That's just an example.

Yes, we'll see. But I'd say its off to a very rocky and expensive start, few know where the truth lies and few know what the consequences might be.
It most certainly is off to a very rocky start. But while a more smooth rollout would have been great, it's not surprising to see a reform of this magnitude to encounter major bumps.

It truly is a leap of faith, which doesn't seem a very responsible thing to me.
It's not a leap of faith. A leap of faith is blindly throwing things out and simply hoping for the best. The concepts behind Obamacare are quite solid. It will just remain to be seen if it works the way it's expected to.
Grow up, kid, one of these days it is going to happen. You don't understand freedom at all. How can a group of people support a woman's right to choose, a person's right to marry whoever they want, and not support a person's right not to have health insurance?
I'm quite grown, as evidenced by the fact I have no problem addressing what you say. You, however, have decided to once more avoid what I said and instead resort to empty Republican rhetoric. How's that costume fitting?

Oh, and there's nothing forcing you to have health insurance. You are more than welcome to not purchase health insurance.

You don't seem to understand personal responsibility at all for if you did you would understand that personal choice is part of that personal responsibility.
Says the person who thinks I should pay for other people's free health insurance. :roll:
 
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Slyfox696;I'm quite grown, as evidenced by the fact I have no problem addressing what you say. You, however, have decided to once more avoid what I said and instead resort to empty Republican rhetoric. How's that costume fitting?

Oh, and there's nothing forcing you to have health insurance. You are more than welcome to not purchase health insurance.

Says the person who thinks I should pay for other people's free health insurance

Nice novel, too bad you have been brainwashed by the Obama rhetoric. You aren't paying for other people's free healthcare unless that happens in your state. You want your state to implement ACA, go for it, but a national program is a prescription for disaster. Healthcare expenses are state and local, not federal. Too bad that fact escapes you

If you are grown then act like it. Look at actual results and think for a change.
 
Nice novel, too bad you have been brainwashed by the Obama rhetoric. You aren't paying for other people's free healthcare unless that happens in your state.
I've been paying for other people's healthcare for years, as I already explained. Not surprisingly, you didn't get it.

If you are grown then act like it.
Says the person constantly resorting to petty insults, empty rhetoric and deception. I really don't think I need you to tell me what to do or how to act, as I see you as one of the last persons I'd wish to emulate. Kindly keep your advice to yourself.
 
Which means the healthcare legislation was 900 pages. This isn't hard to understand.
Wow, someone ought to check the temperature in hell, because Conservative finally was able to admit the truth when it works against Republicans. This is a big day for you, maybe you can use this as a launch pad towards future discussions.


A) I like knowing insurance companies can't screw their customers by charging high premiums and not paying out (80% of premiums must be spent, or refunds granted)
B) I like knowing that as our country has made a sizable shift towards putting people in institutions of higher education, parents can keep their children on their insurance for an extra year
C) I like knowing people with debilitating medical conditions can no longer be denied health coverage
D) I like knowing all insurance plans are required to cover at least the "essential health benefits", which prevents insurance companies from charging premiums while covering almost nothing.
E) I like knowing I'm much less likely to be paying for those people who don't buy insurance and simply go to the emergency room for free healthcare.

And the Nigerian prince will send you his treasure, you just gotta send him a bit of good faith cash....



Now, you finally admitted the truth and finally answered my question. I suppose I shouldn't expect you to answer these questions without having to watch you avoid them for 15 posts, but I'll ask any way. Here's two more questions for you.

1) Now that you have all but admitted Republicans are basically acting like children by not offering any improvements to legislation they claim is bad (by the way, your assertion legislation can be so broken nothing can be fixed is completely laughable and we both know it), but legislation everyone knows is not going anywhere for the foreseeable future, would you agree Republicans are basically contributing nothing to the benefit of Americans? Obamacare isn't going anywhere, so a mature adult would say, "Let's make the best of what we feel is a bad situation. Let's at least do 'this, this and this'.". Do you agree Republicans are not doing anything to help Americans, by throwing a tantrum about not getting something they've known they weren't going to get?

First, you started your question with a non-sequitar, which was the only point you were going to accept (in spite of the reality of the situation)

But ya, of course the solution is to give the arsonists a bunch of gas and a pile of matches and expect them to do the right thing...

Honestly, the republicans not contributing (and doing everything in their capacity to fight this tooth and nail every step of the way is the best they can do to prevent this from getting implemented and fully destroying the republic. So, they are doing the best they can for the country... Unfortunately obamas koolaid drinkers are too short sighted and ill informed to know the damage they have done.

In summary, at what point does a Republican politician have a duty to be realistic and say, "I don't like Obamacare, I don't want Obamacare, but I'll do what I can to make it the best for Americans until I have the power to repeal it"?

Well... The same point where a democrat would have to look at the situation and say "f--- me he scammed me good, how could I have bought those lies for so long."

2) You keep talking about personal responsibility, but you keep advocating to remove Obamacare, which would put us back with the system we had previously in which people like me with insurance were paying higher premiums to cover all the people who receive free healthcare in the emergency room. What could be more personally responsible then paying for your own healthcare (at least some of it, if not all), and not relying on everyone else to subsidize your free health care?

It's called "charity care" and has no effect on your premiums, which, if you are like the average costs you roughly twice as much for less benefits...

It's not a subsidy, it's part of the hippocratic oath.

You actually pushed for a situation where now, because joe schmoe has bad habits they are affecting your rates and so the nanny state will get to tell him what to do, how to act, what and when to eat, what to drink... Because its not just his health that is affected its everyone.... So, your statement WAS false, but is now true. Thank yourself for your own short-sightedness.
If you truly believe in personal responsiblity, you should be celebrating the idea of everyone having to pay for insurance, and not have people like me subsidize free emergency room visits. So why do you keep talking about personal responsibility, but advocate a system where I have to pay increased premiums to cover free emergency room visits?

Not the case, see above.

There are two more questions for you. I suspect it'll take another 15 posts or so for you to answer them directly, but hey, you made great strides with your last post. Maybe you'll surprise me by discussing this reasonably and not falling back on Republican rhetoric.

Those two "questions" we're more like statements and are really just baiting to try to make another spun point that is only barely what could be called accurate.
 
Oh, they''ll do that anyway. The thing you have to understand about this bunch, is the old mantra, "by any means necessary." When this fails, and it will, as designed, they will move to single payer by force, as a crisis mitigation. Obama alrady projected that in 2008, at least 7 times.

Oh! Obama is a real Dear. Don't get me wrong.
 
And the Nigerian prince will send you his treasure, you just gotta send him a bit of good faith cash....

First, you started your question with a non-sequitar, which was the only point you were going to accept (in spite of the reality of the situation)

But ya, of course the solution is to give the arsonists a bunch of gas and a pile of matches and expect them to do the right thing...

Honestly, the republicans not contributing (and doing everything in their capacity to fight this tooth and nail every step of the way is the best they can do to prevent this from getting implemented and fully destroying the republic. So, they are doing the best they can for the country... Unfortunately obamas koolaid drinkers are too short sighted and ill informed to know the damage they have done.



Well... The same point where a democrat would have to look at the situation and say "f--- me he scammed me good, how could I have bought those lies for so long."



It's called "charity care" and has no effect on your premiums, which, if you are like the average costs you roughly twice as much for less benefits...

It's not a subsidy, it's part of the hippocratic oath.

You actually pushed for a situation where now, because joe schmoe has bad habits they are affecting your rates and so the nanny state will get to tell him what to do, how to act, what and when to eat, what to drink... Because its not just his health that is affected its everyone.... So, your statement WAS false, but is now true. Thank yourself for your own short-sightedness.


Not the case, see above.



Those two "questions" we're more like statements and are really just baiting to try to make another spun point that is only barely what could be called accurate.

I'll be happy to address the things you say here as soon as you make both of your apologies to me.
 
I've been paying for other people's healthcare for years, as I already explained. Not surprisingly, you didn't get it.

Says the person constantly resorting to petty insults, empty rhetoric and deception. I really don't think I need you to tell me what to do or how to act, as I see you as one of the last persons I'd wish to emulate. Kindly keep your advice to yourself.

You ask questions over and over again and then when your questions are answered you ask more questions ignoring the answers given. When are you going to answer a direct question?

How can a group of people support a woman's right to choose, a person's right to marry whoever they want, and not support a person's right not to have health insurance?

Your sole purpose here is to bait and troll but what you do with that is show your own ignorance on the topic.
 
You ask questions over and over again
Only until I get an answer to the question. Don't want me to ask over and over again? Answer it the first time.

When are you going to answer a direct question?
I did, and you ignored my response in favor of your standard empty rhetoric. You asked what I liked and I told you, and instead of addressing the things I said, you came back with:

Wow, you really bought the Administration spin. Amazing how someone has so much confidence in a Federal Govt. that has trillions in unfunded mandates for Medicare, is watching doctors and hospitals dropping Medicare, has millions of people having their insurance dropped magnifying the Obama lies.

You are indeed getting a transformed America into that European socialist model that is bankrupt. It is sad seeing how brainwashed you and others are. Why do you have so much faith in a Federal Govt. that has trillions in unfunded liabilities, has had millions of cancellation notices going out which magnifies the Obama lies, and is 17 trillion in debt?

...which is no way addressed any of the things I said in response to your question. It's almost as if you just copy and paste the same things over and over again, regardless of whether it has any relevance to the discussion.
 
I'll be happy to address the things you say here as soon as you make both of your apologies to me.

Ok, I'm sorry... You're not short sighted, you have it thought out and are intentional in supporting corruption and the implications, I'm sorry for giving you the benefit of doubt by suggesting otherwise.

I'm sorry, you don't need to keep alinsky books in hand, you have mastered the techniques of the "radicals".

I'm sorry that you have dodged every question posed to you to act like a spoiled child...

I'm sorry that we answered the question as you asked them rather than answering the question the way you wanted them to be answered.

I'm sorry that you don't understand about charity care and would prefer to have them actually influence your insurance costs.

I'm sorry that I pointed out your fallacious points and ingenuous questions.

Was there more there? Did I miss anything to apologize for that I didn't address.

Oh wait, I'm sorry I suggested that a Cloward and Piven model might not be in the best interest of the country (I didn't state this one, but it's been unspokenly implied)

Edit: can't believe I forgot; I'm sorry for suggesting that lord Obama might be running a pimp game in the form of the Nigerian email scam against the American people by promising something that will never be delivered if the people just bow down to his will.
 
Was there more there? Did I miss anything to apologize for that I didn't address.
Yes, you did. You forgot to apologize for the two things you actually need to apologize for, which was falsely accusing me of changing my question when it remained the same question from the very beginning (as I proved and you are apparently still making false statements about) and for calling me a liar when you could not provide even one piece of evidence of something I said to you which was inaccurate.

I await your apologies for both of those.
 
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