'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

Slyfox696 said:

No, my reading is just fine. Why can you not answer a simple question?

What has the Republicans officially proposed to improve Obamacare? You can continue to twist words all you want, I just want a simple answer to the question. I'm still waiting. The fact you're still twisting words and won't answer a simple question says a lot.

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Any of the items in the proposal would have improved Obamacare but the most important item would be to repeal it and let the states do it.

j-mac said:

If there is one thing that Obama, and progressive demo's have done by attempting to take over the Health insurance industry, it is that the progressives have really ripped the top off of the problems that existed, and exposed just how little we were doing about it before this. So, we are going to have to get a whole lot better at message, and talking with the people about what they want, not at the people about what we want to do. If we don't do that, then progressives will continue to beat us like a drum with the constant message of 'vote for us, vote for stuff.'...

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I agree with the rest; and yes, this really did force the issues concerning healthcare to the forefront...

It's amazing how short sighted a majority are (including a portion that silently oppose, which is equivalent to consent) that they would vote for themselves all sorts of free stuff.

I agree about keeping on message and being able to explain WHY programs like this are detrimental to all...the regressives will ensure that the system gets destroyed for all. It's like the saying; "the road to hell is paved with good intention".

Breaking through the, what could easily be called mind control, is going to be the big challenge since so few want to give up "freebies", even though those freebies already doubled the cost.

Conservative said:

Any of the items in the proposal would have improved Obamacare but the most important item would be to repeal it and let the states do it.

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That's why they won't accept; you came up with a proposed solution that doesn't involve expanding government controls over society...

slyfox696 said:

Now, tell me...aside from getting rid of Obamacare, exactly what improvements have Republicans formally proposed? The medical device tax? Okay, it's something which seems to have support on both sides of the aisle. It will likely be amended. What else have Republicans proposed?

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Mornin' sly...I thought this was a good question, because 1. republicans are horrible at messaging, and 2. there have been several plans over the past couple of years from republican doctors in the House, and Senate that have addressed a different way to do this. The most recent being right before the shutdown...

House conservatives submit bill to replace 'ObamaCare,' amid 'defund' fight | Fox News

But, as usual Harry Reid tables all of these proposals from the repub house, and doesn't allow debate on them, or a vote of any kind. Then, he, and other demo's turn and disingenuously say that repubs have not put anything forward...It's just not true.

Conservative said:

Any of the items in the proposal would have improved Obamacare but the most important item would be to repeal it and let the states do it.

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That's not what I asked you. Please answer the question I asked.

j-mac said:

Mornin' sly...I thought this was a good question, because 1. republicans are horrible at messaging, and 2. there have been several plans over the past couple of years from republican doctors in the House, and Senate that have addressed a different way to do this. The most recent being right before the shutdown...

House conservatives submit bill to replace 'ObamaCare,' amid 'defund' fight | Fox News

But, as usual Harry Reid tables all of these proposals from the repub house, and doesn't allow debate on them, or a vote of any kind. Then, he, and other demo's turn and disingenuously say that repubs have not put anything forward...It's just not true.

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But that's not improving Obamacare, that's doing away with it completely and offering to institute their own plan. That's simply not realistic, given the fact Republicans are the minority party in government right now.

I'd like to see, aside from repeal/defund/delay and the medical device tax (which has support on both sides), what proposals Republicans are offering to improve Obamacare, not replace it.

Conservative seems unwilling or incapable of providing such information. Maybe you can help me instead. It's a question I genuinely have, as I always like to have the most facts available. What proposals have the Republicans officially offered to improve Obamacare?

I would like to suggest a new slogan for Obamacare:

Obamacare: Pay More, Eat Less, Lose Weight!

Slyfox696 said:

That's not what I asked you. Please answer the question I asked.


But that's not improving Obamacare, that's doing away with it completely and offering to institute their own plan. That's simply not realistic, given the fact Republicans are the minority party in government right now.

I'd like to see, aside from repeal/defund/delay and the medical device tax (which has support on both sides), what proposals Republicans are offering to improve Obamacare, not replace it.

Conservative seems unwilling or incapable of providing such information. Maybe you can help me instead. It's a question I genuinely have, as I always like to have the most facts available. What proposals have the Republicans officially offered to improve Obamacare?

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HHS was granted plenty of new power to regulate the insurance market, so its on them to make the improvements, unless you would support yanking that verbiage("the HHS secretary will...."). That's pretty much the only thing that can be changed via law, other than the dates that are hard-coded( the rest are under the HHS jurisdiction)

Slyfox696 said:

But that's not improving Obamacare, that's doing away with it completely and offering to institute their own plan. That's simply not realistic, given the fact Republicans are the minority party in government right now.

I'd like to see, aside from repeal/defund/delay and the medical device tax (which has support on both sides), what proposals Republicans are offering to improve Obamacare, not replace it.

Conservative seems unwilling or incapable of providing such information. Maybe you can help me instead. It's a question I genuinely have, as I always like to have the most facts available. What proposals have the Republicans officially offered to improve Obamacare?

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Well, to be honest about it sly, I don't believe that the repubs believe that keeping the PPACA in place as it exists is workable with changes. And to be fair, why should repubs work to fix a law they didn't agree with, a law they don't want, and a law that their constituents are pleading with them to get rid of? But no, the repubs have not offered "fixes" to Obamacare, and in large part I think a that is due to the toxic relationship between the parties these days that is not helped by either side in this.

jmotivator said:

I would like to suggest a new slogan for Obamacare:

Obamacare: Pay More, Eat Less, Lose Weight!

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How about this one:

"Progressivism - Ideas so good they have to be mandatory!"

j-mac said:

Well, to be honest about it sly, I don't believe that the repubs believe that keeping the PPACA in place as it exists is workable with changes.

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They certainly have made that their political position, but the problem is until you try, you'll never know. And as long as you are the minority party, you really don't have the power to dictate terms.

It seems to me Republicans, if they were truly concerned about citizens, would do their best to make the best of what they consider a bad situation.

And to be fair, why should repubs work to fix a law they didn't agree with, a law they don't want

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Because it's what they are supposed to do? Their job is not to "win", their job is to do what's best for their citizens. Right now, they cannot get rid of Obamacare, they simply do not have the power. So instead of yelling, how about you at least work to improve it? And if the situation changes where Republicans gain power, then you work to repeal it and replace it.

and a law that their constituents are pleading with them to get rid of?

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There are many sides to this argument. First of all, many of the constituents are not pleading with them to get rid of many of the things Obamacare does, they are pleading with them to get rid of the legislation passed by Democrats which Republicans have spent the last several years criticizing. I think most people, on both sides, agree with the pre-existing condition portion of Obamacare. They like keeping children on insurance until 26. I bet they like knowing if insurance companies don't spend 80% of premiums on medical care, then their customers will get a refund. I suspect the majority of people in this country like all of those things. What many Republican voters don't like is the legislation was passed by Democrats.

Second of all, you make an excellent point. Representatives are elected to represent the will of the people. But third of all, representatives are also elected to do what's best for the country. What they are doing is clearly not best for the country, even according to their own rhetoric of Obamacare's flaws.

But no, the repubs have not offered "fixes" to Obamacare, and in large part I think a that is due to the toxic relationship between the parties these days that is not helped by either side in this.

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I agree completely. The problem for Republicans is it's hard to take them seriously about looking out for the best interests of Americans when they seem completely averse to doing anything to better the legislation, which reality says they are stuck with.

Slyfox696 said:

They certainly have made that their political position, but the problem is until you try, you'll never know. And as long as you are the minority party, you really don't have the power to dictate terms.

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The Democrats understand that perfectly, which is why they don 't listen to what the Republicans have to say.

It seems to me Republicans, if they were truly concerned about citizens, would do their best to make the best of what they consider a bad situation.

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Most everyone agrees its a bad situation, and was created 100% y the Democrats, and against the will of the people. How can the Republicans now be blamed for not fixing it?

Because it's what they are supposed to do? Their job is not to "win", their job is to do what's best for their citizens.

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And cancelling Obamacare is best for the people in America, many of whom are non-citizens.. We can see it is a huge screwup already and no one is being held accountable. Barrack Obama, as usual, is saying he had no idea what's going on, and I'm beginning to believe him. Obama, the architect behind Obamacare, has no idea what went wrong in a situation that cost the American taxpayer $1 billion over 3.5 years, still doesn't work, and the President responds with 'I dunno what happened but, as usual, we'll get to the bottom of this'. How strongly you must believe in order to get past these lies and incompetence.

Right now, they cannot get rid of Obamacare, they simply do not have the power. So instead of yelling, how about you at least work to improve it? And if the situation changes where Republicans gain power, then you work to repeal it and replace it.

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Are you saying that its the responsibility of the Republicans, who voted 100% against this mess, to improve Obamacare? How do you propose they do that?

There are many sides to this argument. First of all, many of the constituents are not pleading with them to get rid of many of the things Obamacare does, they are pleading with them to get rid of the legislation passed by Democrats which Republicans have spent the last several years criticizing. I think most people, on both sides, agree with the pre-existing condition portion of Obamacare. They like keeping children on insurance until 26. I bet they like knowing if insurance companies don't spend 80% of premiums on medical care, then their customers will get a refund. I suspect the majority of people in this country like all of those things. What many Republican voters don't like is the legislation was passed by Democrats.

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I think you've nailed it there as far as keeping children on until they are 26. At one time Americans were adult at 18 and now Barrack Obama has created a nation of new adolescents. The Democrats have also increased their constituency by creating a welfare state dependent on their largesse with taxpayer dollars and have turned groups of Americans against each other by demonizing any opposition.

Those who remember what America was know whats going on but those who are less educated, not only in school but with experience in the real world, understand completely what's happening. It's not clear if they will ever get their country back.

Conservative said:

That is your opinion, want to pay Canadian taxes or European taxes for it? Do you understand personal responsibility at all. If it is possible to cover everyone at half the cost then why isn't medicare more effective and that is total govt. control. Why is it that doctors are dropping Medicare? Why is it you cannot see waste, fraud, and abuse as a problem and understand that Obama has no interest in really correcting the problem?

You buy what you are told but have nothing to base your opinion on other than the opinion of others. Obama is sticking the neck out of the taxpayers and taking us beyond the point of no return. What happens if you and he are wrong?

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Americans pay roughly the same amount of taxes as do Canadians. And our health care system is more highly rated than yours, it's for all the people, it costs about 1/2 as much per capita, and it has a better rate of outcome.

Now what else are you going to make up in order to try to deprive people of what they should claim as a right?

Slyfox696 said:

They certainly have made that their political position, but the problem is until you try, you'll never know. And as long as you are the minority party, you really don't have the power to dictate terms.

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No doubt about that. But there are things that the minority party can do, and is proper to do in our system of government to ensure that we are not subject to the tyranny of the majority. But you are correct, we need to win in 2014 the Senate, and keep a strong majority in the house to start to change this, then we need the Presidency in 2016, and we can reverse this law before it does too much damage IMHO.

It seems to me Republicans, if they were truly concerned about citizens, would do their best to make the best of what they consider a bad situation.

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Oh, I think they are doing exactly what they should be doing at this moment in time. On that I don't think at this point we can agree on that, but I do take your acknowledgement that it is a 'bad situation'

Because it's what they are supposed to do? Their job is not to "win", their job is to do what's best for their citizens. Right now, they cannot get rid of Obamacare, they simply do not have the power. So instead of yelling, how about you at least work to improve it? And if the situation changes where Republicans gain power, then you work to repeal it and replace it.

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If I may, I don't think that it is human nature for someone to help another who continually tells them to eat **** and die. Do you?

There are many sides to this argument. First of all, many of the constituents are not pleading with them to get rid of many of the things Obamacare does, they are pleading with them to get rid of the legislation passed by Democrats which Republicans have spent the last several years criticizing.

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Just because Obama, and demo's let the people eat their desert first before the spinach doesn't mean that the spinach is not there does it?

I think most people, on both sides, agree with the pre-existing condition portion of Obamacare. They like keeping children on insurance until 26. I bet they like knowing if insurance companies don't spend 80% of premiums on medical care, then their customers will get a refund. I suspect the majority of people in this country like all of those things. What many Republican voters don't like is the legislation was passed by Democrats.

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I think what American's don't like is having a cumbersome piece of legislation pushed on them that no one read before they voted on it, that they can't understand if they tried, or that as this bill was passed possibly their representative was completely shut out of the process in making this law, and that today they are being told that 'you may not like the law, but now it is up to you to help fix it, or we can blame you for not doing so'.... The obvious answer is to say 'I didn't want this crap to start with!'

Second of all, you make an excellent point. Representatives are elected to represent the will of the people. But third of all, representatives are also elected to do what's best for the country. What they are doing is clearly not best for the country, even according to their own rhetoric of Obamacare's flaws.

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I think it's a little subjective to declaratively say that they are not doing what is best for the country...It is akin to what demo's got so mad about when some republicans questioned their patriotism for speaking out against the Iraq war at the time.

I agree completely. The problem for Republicans is it's hard to take them seriously about looking out for the best interests of Americans when they seem completely averse to doing anything to better the legislation, which reality says they are stuck with.

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Again, with all due respect, the false dichotomy of saying "either help us fix what you didn't want, or you're part of the problem with it" is just not true.

Michael66 said:

Americans pay roughly the same amount of taxes as do Canadians. And our health care system is more highly rated than yours, it's for all the people, it costs about 1/2 as much per capita, and it has a better rate of outcome.

Now what else are you going to make up in order to try to deprive people of what they should claim as a right?

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Again, that is your opinion, I live in TX and don't pay anywhere near the taxes you pay in Canada. There are 50 independent sovereign states here that have different tax structures and different costs of living. TX alone has about the same GDP as the entire country of Canada and has a part time legislature that meets every two years then has to go home and live under the laws they create, sounds a lot like our Founders, doesn't it?

You claim that your healthcare is more highly rated, by whom? I will put my healthcare up against yours any day as well as my doctor. Healthcare is a personal responsibility not a Federal responsibility. It is to be handled at the state and local level, not the Federal level.

I love your country, absolutely beautiful but you make claims that you don't even understand. Canadian population 34 million, U.S. Population 312 million, Canadian GDP 1.3 trillion U.S. GDP 16.5 trillion. Canada provinces 10, U.S. states 50. Your one size fits all program won't fit in a country this size, this free, and this diverse. Gasoline taxes, TX 38 cents per gallon, Canada .64 cents per gallon to 1.51 per gallon.

Good analysis of taxes

Do Canadians Really Pay More Taxes Than Americans?


Now we can play this game all day but the reality is ratings for healthcare is subjective at best and in this country depends on the area. Obamacare isn't going to change that.

Conservative said:

Again, that is your opinion, I live in TX and don't pay anywhere near the taxes you pay in Canada. There are 50 independent sovereign states here that have different tax structures and different costs of living. TX alone has about the same GDP as the entire country of Canada and has a part time legislature that meets every two years then has to go home and live under the laws they create, sounds a lot like our Founders, doesn't it?

You claim that your healthcare is more highly rated, by whom? I will put my healthcare up against yours any day as well as my doctor. Healthcare is a personal responsibility not a Federal responsibility. It is to be handled at the state and local level, not the Federal level.

I love your country, absolutely beautiful but you make claims that you don't even understand. Canadian population 34 million, U.S. Population 312 million, Canadian GDP 1.3 trillion U.S. GDP 16.5 trillion. Canada provinces 10, U.S. states 50. Your one size fits all program won't fit in a country this size, this free, and this diverse. Gasoline taxes, TX 38 cents per gallon, Canada .64 cents per gallon to 1.51 per gallon.

Good analysis of taxes

Do Canadians Really Pay More Taxes Than Americans?


Now we can play this game all day but the reality is ratings for healthcare is subjective at best and in this country depends on the area. Obamacare isn't going to change that.

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The Worlk Health Organization has consistently rated the US health care system lower than Canada's. In the last rating you were one better than Cuba I believe.

Comparing taxes on gasoline at the pump is a pretty poor way to compare taxes paid overall but I guess if you want to be dishonest about it and it works for you. Disappointing really.

Canadian Taxes Vs. US Taxes | eHow

Taxes are roughly the same in Canada as they are in the US but note that more income brackets find US taxes higher than Canada's. I'll be happy to call them the same for my position in the debate.

If we want to spend a lot more time on it then we could break it down for provinces and states but that's not a consideration for the whole country. For example, Alberta pays less overall than does B.C.

And then, it's pretty obvious that we have better health care and it serves all of our people. There's hardly any American who would argue that but lots who have stated it outright on this forum. You do pay less for gas at the pump.

Michael66 said:

The Worlk Health Organization has consistently rated the US health care system lower than Canada's. In the last rating you were one better than Cuba I believe.

Comparing taxes on gasoline at the pump is a pretty poor way to compare taxes paid overall but I guess if you want to be dishonest about it and it works for you. Disappointing really.

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I quite frankly don't care much about the WHO because their data is suspect at best as much of the information comes from countries that information is controlled by the govt. The fact that we have diverse population and diverse tax structure here makes a one size fits all program destined for failure.

You don't think your gasoline taxes help fund healthcare in your country? You don't have a unified budget? What is disappointing is that we have a Canadian telling the people of this country that they need a Canadian style healthcare system when less than 45% of this country agree. You don't have any idea what your system costs or whether or not it is better than ours. what matters is what the individual thinks not what the WHO says

Michael66 said:

Canadian Taxes Vs. US Taxes | eHow

Taxes are roughly the same in Canada as they are in the US but note that more income brackets find US taxes higher than Canada's. I'll be happy to call them the same for my position in the debate.

If we want to spend a lot more time on it then we could break it down for provinces and states but that's not a consideration for the whole country. For example, Alberta pays less overall than does B.C.

And then, it's pretty obvious that we have better health care and it serves all of our people. There's hardly any American who would argue that but lots who have stated it outright on this forum. You do pay less for gas at the pump.

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Again you pick out the parts that you think support your point of view totally ignoring state and local taxes compared to provincial taxes, gasoline taxes, and other taxes that go into your general fund vs. the separation of taxes in this country. I will put my taxes up against yours any day

Michael66 said:

Canadian Taxes Vs. US Taxes | eHowYou do pay less for gas at the pump.

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You do realize that the extra you pay is a tax, right?

Consumer Prices in United States are 16.54% lower than in Canada
Consumer Prices Including Rent in United States are 13.54% lower than in Canada
Rent Prices in United States are 5.66% lower than in Canada
Restaurant Prices in United States are 18.34% lower than in Canada
Groceries Prices in United States are 17.13% lower than in Canada
Local Purchasing Power in United States is 29.41% higher than in Canada
(source)

This is all brought to you lucky Canadians through the magic of hidden taxes!

Conservative said:

Again you pick out the parts that you think support your point of view totally ignoring state and local taxes compared to provincial taxes, gasoline taxes, and other taxes that go into your general fund vs. the separation of taxes in this country. I will put my taxes up against yours any day

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I have done no such thing. I merely provided you with a link that shows taxes being roughly equal in our two countries, with a slight advantage to Canadians in more income brackets. The link also discusses the differences in states and provinces and mentions that it is difficult to make the comparisons. And I even added that gasoline is cheaper at the pump in the US than it is in Canada.

Put your taxes up against mine any time you like. It will give you an idea of how we compare as individuals in our respective countries. If you think that's going to earn you some points then give it a try.

Yes, I know you don't care what the World Health Organization says. I find that it's seldom that Americans do care about people in other countries, as well as not really caring to hear statistics that are not pleasing to their own agenda. So after you read the statistics below then you can make it go away if you like.

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems
I was wrong, you're not one better than Cuba, you're two better. Not bad for a banana republic is it! And not all that bad for the US either considering there are a whole lot worse, albeit most are third world and banana republics!

And fwiw, your link said about the same thing as mine. What's your problem with the link I gave you?

Michael66 said:

I have done no such thing. I merely provided you with a link that shows taxes being roughly equal in our two countries, with a slight advantage to Canadians in more income brackets. The link also discusses the differences in states and provinces and mentions that it is difficult to make the comparisons. And I even added that gasoline is cheaper at the pump in the US than it is in Canada.

Put your taxes up against mine any time you like. It will give you an idea of how we compare as individuals in our respective countries. If you think that's going to earn you some points then give it a try.

Yes, I know you don't care what the World Health Organization says. I find that it's seldom that Americans do care about people in other countries, as well as not really caring to hear statistics that are not pleasing to their own agenda. So after you read the statistics below then you can make it go away if you like.

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems
I was wrong, you're not one better than Cuba, you're two better. Not bad for a banana republic is it! And not all that bad for the US either considering there are a whole lot worse, albeit most are third world and banana republics!

And fwiw, your link said about the same thing as mine. What's your problem with the link I gave you?

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Wow! I have to say I am shocked....I looked it up, and all the WHO crap, and other talk aside, Michael is right, Canada in raw rates looks shockingly similar to America in taxation....(Although we do have 10 times the population) And I am not sure what the welfare situation is in Canada. jmotivator showed some areas where hidden taxation are markedly higher in Canada. But, it just blows my mind, because I would have thought that outright tax rates in Canada would have been about 10% points higher.

Slyfox696 said:

What has the Republicans officially proposed to improve Obamacare? You can continue to twist words all you want, I just want a simple answer to the question. I'm still waiting. The fact you're still twisting words and won't answer a simple question says a lot.

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Trying to plug the leak on the Titanic was a waste of time. Trying to improve the disaster Obamadon'tcare would be too.

j-mac said:

Wow! I have to say I am shocked....I looked it up, and all the WHO crap, and other talk aside, Michael is right, Canada in raw rates looks shockingly similar to America in taxation....(Although we do have 10 times the population) And I am not sure what the welfare situation is in Canada. jmotivator showed some areas where hidden taxation are markedly higher in Canada. But, it just blows my mind, because I would have thought that outright tax rates in Canada would have been about 10% points higher.

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If you are being honest and not facetious then you are indicating a lack of knowledge about the topic. That could be because you have taken the word of the faction that has an interest in making it look like something different.

I appreciate your honesty.

Michael66 said:

I have done no such thing. I merely provided you with a link that shows taxes being roughly equal in our two countries, with a slight advantage to Canadians in more income brackets. The link also discusses the differences in states and provinces and mentions that it is difficult to make the comparisons. And I even added that gasoline is cheaper at the pump in the US than it is in Canada.

Put your taxes up against mine any time you like. It will give you an idea of how we compare as individuals in our respective countries. If you think that's going to earn you some points then give it a try.

Yes, I know you don't care what the World Health Organization says. I find that it's seldom that Americans do care about people in other countries, as well as not really caring to hear statistics that are not pleasing to their own agenda. So after you read the statistics below then you can make it go away if you like.

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems
I was wrong, you're not one better than Cuba, you're two better. Not bad for a banana republic is it! And not all that bad for the US either considering there are a whole lot worse, albeit most are third world and banana republics!

And fwiw, your link said about the same thing as mine. What's your problem with the link I gave you?

Click to expand...

What you want to ignore is that we have different cost of livings in different states as well which is ignored.

As for the WHO, here is a pretty good analysis as to the accuracy of their ranking but of course aren't relevant to you.

Ill-Conceived Ranking Makes for Unhealthy Debate - WSJ.com

WHO rankings are irrelevant and are trumped by the individual relationship with their doctors and insurance plan. You see that reality escapes you. I am very happy with my insurance plan and my doctor no longer accepts Medicare which is the growing trend in this country. It also does seem that about 45% or less in this country support Obamacare so they aren't paying much attention to the rankings either.

Michael66 said:

If you are being honest and not facetious then you are indicating a lack of knowledge about the topic. That could be because you have taken the word of the faction that has an interest in making it look like something different.

I appreciate your honesty.

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No,no...I was being totally honest...I always thought, ever since being stationed in Germany in the 80s that countries that had all encompassing programs like that just paid more in taxes.