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Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups [W:165]

Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Blue_State said:
Because of the topic of this thread. Innocents on the ground.
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That isn't an answer it is a restating of the debate. Why should we treat air strikes like ground operations they are completely different things. Explain exactly how this would work and why it should work that way.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

ecofarm said:
Drone strikes are often cancelled based on civilian considerations alone, ground operations not so much.
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Ground operations are multidimensional. Drone strikes are not. Ground operations can effectively remove innocents from the area.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Blue_State said:
Ground operations are multidimensional. Drone strikes are not. Ground operations can effectively remove innocents from the area.
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More civilian consideration is made in drone strikes than ground operations. Your premise is false.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Sherman123 said:
That isn't an answer it is a restating of the debate. Why should we treat air strikes like ground operations they are completely different things. Explain exactly how this would work and why it should work that way.
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I can't make the same point to you repeatedly and have you not understand. Thanks for the fun.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Blue_State said:
This is a question of morality. If the question is what is the most cost effective lowest risk operation we can run, then it is drone strikes. But the topic of this thread is civilian deaths, and that the US is under reporting that number.
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Well there's two issues here:

1- Why do you presume that civilian deaths would be less with troops on the ground?
2- Why do you presume that your vision of morality must be the one everyone else should adhere to?
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Blue_State said:
I can't make the same point to you repeatedly and have you not understand. Thanks for the fun.
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Because you have no adequate explanation. It is easy to say "We should use the same standard for hostage rescue operations as infantry assaults" it is much more difficult to explain why. Obviously we all would like to see civilian casualties stay at a minimum but your scenario not only does nothing to ensure that, but it fails to recognize that these decisions to not exist in a vacuum. There are consequences for altering our strategy which you have repeatedly failed to address. It is because I suspect you do not have adequate answers.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

ecofarm said:
One cannot use fantasy to justify having their facts backwards. More consideration is made in drone strikes than ground operations. Your premise was false.
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What is the time frame to locate, approve and engage a drone strike?
I have seen them done in less than 15 minutes, but I imagine for people on the kill list that would take a week.

What is the time frame to locate, approve and engage a ground operation?
Over a year for OBL. Ground operations take longer to plan and put together. What if it is a operation to get a bomb maker out of a village. That took about week.

To say more consideration does not go into a ground operation, that is false.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Blue_State said:
Ground operations are multidimensional. Drone strikes are not. Ground operations can effectively remove innocents from the area.
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False. Air strikes are multidimensional. The greatest loss of civilian life has historically been during prolonged ground operations, not singular air strikes.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Blue_State said:
What is the time frame to locate, approve and engage a drone strike?
I have seen them done in less than 15 minutes, but I imagine for people on the kill list that would take a week.
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If there is no collateral damage possible, the target should be engaged virtually instantaneously. So what?

Your premise that drone strikes do not make the same considerations for collateral damage is a false premise. No amount of OBL talk can change that.

One might as well just go whole hog and claim that drone strikes are random.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Blue_State said:
What is the time frame to locate, approve and engage a drone strike?
I have seen them done in less than 15 minutes, but I imagine for people on the kill list that would take a week.

What is the time frame to locate, approve and engage a ground operation?
Over a year for OBL. Ground operations take longer to plan and put together. What if it is a operation to get a bomb maker out of a village. That took about week.

To say more consideration does not go into a ground operation, that is false.
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They take a variable amount of time but usually rely upon information relayed from our intelligence apparatus and judgement calls by those who sometimes have to make rapid decisions. It would be impossible for soldiers to reach these targets in time, let a lone safely, in most circumstances without a substantial combat operation which would likely endanger more civilians thus defeating your purpose.

Again, OBL was the most extraordinary of extraordinary cases, perhaps the most extraordinary example in history. It is not a good idea to use that as a template.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

OldWorldOrder said:
Well there's two issues here:

1- Why do you presume that civilian deaths would be less with troops on the ground?
2- Why do you presume that your vision of morality must be the one everyone else should adhere to?
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Holy moly.

MY POINT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT CAUSES LESS CIVILIAN DEATHS!!! The level of consideration I believe is important.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

ecofarm said:
If there is no collateral damage possible, the target should be engaged virtually instantaneously. So what?

Your premise that drone strikes do not take the same considerations for collateral damage is a false premise. No amount of OBL talk can change that.
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Why is it false? Because you say so?
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Blue_State said:
Holy moly.

MY POINT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT CAUSES LESS CIVILIAN DEATHS!!! The level of consideration I believe is important.
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Er...It most certainly does.

Now, to the second issue?
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Blue_State said:
Why is it false? Because you say so? My experience lets me know you are wrong here.
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Reality contradicts your "experience".
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Blue_State said:
Why is it false? Because you say so? My experience lets me know you are wrong here.
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Your experience is not verifiable, it is singular, and thus not relevant to this debate.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Sherman123 said:
Your experience is not verifiable, it is singular, and thus not relevant to this debate.
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I removed that point and shouldn't have included it.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Blue_State said:
Why is it false? Because you say so?
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If you read any of the dozen links, reports, and studies that have been posted in this thread you would see this evidenced.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Thanks for the fun. Catch you later tonight.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

How about, and I know this is a totally crazy idea, we just not bomb these countries in the first place? No need to worry about civilian deaths, since we won't be killing anyone at all!
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Paschendale said:
How about, and I know this is a totally crazy idea, we just not bomb these countries in the first place? No need to worry about civilian deaths, since we won't be killing anyone at all!
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How about we do nothing at all about anything and just hope it works out?
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

The sad thing about this story is not that it's now being done by the use of drones, it's the fact that the US is still killing more people than it admits.

On a positive note, Obama is doing it in a way that the US would refer to as 'surgical strikes', as opposed to carpet bombing and the indiscriminate bombing of whole villages, towns, and cities as they did in Viet Nam and Cambodia.

Not that Obama should be lauded the praise too much though, he's still carrying out the killing.

Americans who object to the use of drones are just more racists and haters who are looking for a reason to blame Obama again. The same people who would happily applaud the use of huge destructive weapons on whole cities. Nobody should be fooled about that fact!
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

BREAKING NEWS: Fox News is reporting that the head of al-Quaida in Pakistan was killed by a drone strike.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Blue_State said:
Nice dodge...got another in your bag?
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The only one who is doing any dodging here is you- I have no use for those who, like you, appear to support terrorists.

The day will never come that I will be doing your research for you.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Erod said:
BREAKING NEWS:
Fox News is reporting that the head of al-Quaida in Pakistan was killed today by a drone strike.
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Great news.

I wonder what Blue _ State thinks about that.
 
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