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The Republican civil war is just getting started

shrug...

Just because he's DONE things that liberals like you don't like, doesn't mean he's not a liberal. It just means he's willing to make deals...he's willing to forgo his agenda when it suits him politically.

All you have to do is listen to and read the things he's said over the years...especially when he campaigned.

  • In February 2004, about a month before the primary election in the U.S. Senate race, the Associated Press reported the stance of all the candidates on universal health care. "Obama says he supports the idea of universal health care but does not think a single-payer government system is feasible. He says the government should be the health care provider of last resort for the uninsured." In a rundown of all the candidates' positions, the Associated Press summarized Obama's position as "Support, but 'probably not at this stage,' a single-payer government system."
  • In his book The Audacity of Hope , published in October 2006 when he was a U.S. senator, Obama described single-payer as the hope of the left, while those on the right wanted a market-based approach. "It's time we broke this impasse by acknowledging a few simple truths," Obama wrote, suggesting a system much like the one he supports today.
  • In April 2007, a few months after he declared his candidacy for presidency, the Chicago Tribune reported, "Obama has pledged that, if elected, all Americans would have health-care coverage by the end of his first term. He has said he is reluctant to switch to a 'single-payer' national health insurance system because of the difficulty in making a quick transition from the employer-based private system."
  • At his town halls as president, he routinely answers questions about single-payer by saying he would favor it if he were starting a system "from scratch." But he consistently adds that's not the goal of the current reform. "For us to transition completely from an employer-based system of private insurance to a single-payer system could be hugely disruptive, and my attitude has been that we should be able to find a way to create a uniquely American solution to this problem that controls costs but preserves the innovation that is introduced in part with a free-market system," Obama said in Annandale, Va., on July 1, 2009.

PolitiFact | Obama statements on single-payer have changed a bit
 
So what?

All you said is true...but it also doesn't make him a Republican.

As I said, the Republicans did not kill single payer...Democrats did.
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, quacks likes a duck, its a horse?
 
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, quacks likes a duck, its a horse?

LOL!!

Okay. I see that self-identified labels mean nothing to you. I expect that the next time McCain or Snow push through some kind of legislation or kill some other legislation, you will hold true to your beliefs and say the Democrats did it.
 
  • In February 2004, about a month before the primary election in the U.S. Senate race, the Associated Press reported the stance of all the candidates on universal health care. "Obama says he supports the idea of universal health care but does not think a single-payer government system is feasible. He says the government should be the health care provider of last resort for the uninsured." In a rundown of all the candidates' positions, the Associated Press summarized Obama's position as "Support, but 'probably not at this stage,' a single-payer government system."
  • In his book The Audacity of Hope , published in October 2006 when he was a U.S. senator, Obama described single-payer as the hope of the left, while those on the right wanted a market-based approach. "It's time we broke this impasse by acknowledging a few simple truths," Obama wrote, suggesting a system much like the one he supports today.
  • In April 2007, a few months after he declared his candidacy for presidency, the Chicago Tribune reported, "Obama has pledged that, if elected, all Americans would have health-care coverage by the end of his first term. He has said he is reluctant to switch to a 'single-payer' national health insurance system because of the difficulty in making a quick transition from the employer-based private system."
  • At his town halls as president, he routinely answers questions about single-payer by saying he would favor it if he were starting a system "from scratch." But he consistently adds that's not the goal of the current reform. "For us to transition completely from an employer-based system of private insurance to a single-payer system could be hugely disruptive, and my attitude has been that we should be able to find a way to create a uniquely American solution to this problem that controls costs but preserves the innovation that is introduced in part with a free-market system," Obama said in Annandale, Va., on July 1, 2009.

PolitiFact | Obama statements on single-payer have changed a bit

Ummm...

Okay. Thank you for making my point.
 
LOL!!

Okay. I see that self-identified labels mean nothing to you. I expect that the next time McCain or Snow push through some kind of legislation or kill some other legislation, you will hold true to your beliefs and say the Democrats did it.

I've never said otherwise. Just because someone chooses to self label themselves and then goes against the core tenants of that choice doesn't make them that choice.

Thats the thing, a lot of the south although labeled as Dems are really just the GOP with their old labels from the 1950s, this shouldn't be a surprise as the party beliefs have changed over the past 50 yrs and then some.
 
I've never said otherwise. Just because someone chooses to self label themselves and then goes against the core tenants of that choice doesn't make them that choice.

Thats the thing, a lot of the south although labeled as Dems are really just the GOP with their old labels from the 1950s, this shouldn't be a surprise as the party beliefs have changed over the past 50 yrs and then some.

Again, so what?

Come on, Nynaeve, words matter, don't you think? Do you really expect to be taken seriously when you make a statement like, "...and then they GOP lobbies killed that section of the bill...", and then defend that statement by saying that the real people who killed single payer, even though they are Democrats, are really conservative and therefore...the Republicans did it?

I suggest you stop while you are behind...before you fall even further behind.
 
I wish I could bookmark threads like this. When Obamacare begins to implode and and Christie wins the White House it will be fun to find out what happened to the people who were so sure it was all over for the GOP. Probably be in hiding by then, huh?

... just start a word document and copy the link into it alongside a description of its content.
 
What was your point?

Have you lost track of this conversation so soon? Here is my point:

Oh, Obama IS a supporter of...and has pushed for...single payer health insurance. Here, watch this:




Now...is Obama willing to not get single payer if it suits his agenda? Sure he is. The only reason he went along with Obamacare is because his own Party wasn't ready to move ahead with single payer.

So, yes...Obama is a liberal.


Your links support my point.
 
Oh, and things were booming under the Libbos and would boom again, if only eveeryone would get out of Obama's way? Surely you jest!

Yes we would be doing better without the brinksmanship and sequester cuts. Most Congress's would have passed a job stimulus bill too with unemployment so high. Reagan spent his way out of his recession but not Obama. The "beast has been starved".
You are in denial if you don't see that what the Republicans are doing is trying to stunt our growth and keep deficits and unemployment high.
 
So what?

All you said is true...but it also doesn't make him a Republican.

As I said, the Republicans did not kill single payer...Democrats did.

It didn't hurt that unlike Hillary, Obama did not campaign on single payer. Obama knew the resistance from many sides would be overwhelming. Few realize that deals were struck with drug and insurance companies long before the AHC act was introduced to Congress. Obama wanted to get something done, unlike the lip service we have been getting for 50 years from BOTH parties.
 
Have you lost track of this conversation so soon? Here is my point:



Your links support my point.
The words liberal and conservative when used as an adjective are relative to a persons own POV. It depends upon where the person sits along the political spectrum as how they judge. You said President Obama is liberal, I say he is not as liberal as one might claim he is. I am not wrong and neither are you.
 
It didn't hurt that unlike Hillary, Obama did not campaign on single payer. Obama knew the resistance from many sides would be overwhelming. Few realize that deals were struck with drug and insurance companies long before the AHC act was introduced to Congress. Obama wanted to get something done, unlike the lip service we have been getting for 50 years from BOTH parties.
He's a pragmatist.
 
The words liberal and conservative when used as an adjective are relative to a persons own POV. It depends upon where the person sits along the political spectrum as how they judge. You said President Obama is liberal, I say he is not as liberal as one might claim he is. I am not wrong and neither are you.

Actually, that's not what you initially said...this is:

That's for sure, if he was liberal he would have pushed for single payer health insurance (like Medicare for all) rather than depending on profit making insurance companies.

I maintained that he is, in fact, liberal and even showed now he actually does support single payer whether he pushed for it or not...and I gave you a reasoning why he did not. You have yet to show me why he isn't a liberal. The links you provided to do so actually proved my point...not yours.

I'd say that means you are wrong and I am right.
 
Again, so what?

Come on, Nynaeve, words matter, don't you think? Do you really expect to be taken seriously when you make a statement like, "...and then they GOP lobbies killed that section of the bill...", and then defend that statement by saying that the real people who killed single payer, even though they are Democrats, are really conservative and therefore...the Republicans did it?

I suggest you stop while you are behind...before you fall even further behind.
Actions matter far more than words.

You can claim to be anything you want, that doesn't make it true.
 
I feel like Nynaeve is setting up a worldview wherein anyone that she agrees with is liberal/democrat and anyone she disagrees with is conservative/republican, regardless of any type of self-identification.
 
Actually, that's not what you initially said...this is:



I maintained that he is, in fact, liberal and even showed now he actually does support single payer whether he pushed for it or not...and I gave you a reasoning why he did not. You have yet to show me why he isn't a liberal. The links you provided to do so actually proved my point...not yours.

I'd say that means you are wrong and I am right.

From the far right vantage point where you sit, Nixon and Reagan are liberals too. It is all a matter of perspective. Another "liberal", Bob Dole proposed a HC plan that was not much different from the AHC act, mandate and all. Romney even passed a form of it in Mass. I suppose he is a liberal too by your criteria.
 
From the far right vantage point where you sit, Nixon and Reagan are liberals too. It is all a matter of perspective. Another "liberal", Bob Dole proposed a HC plan that was not much different from the AHC act, mandate and all. Romney even passed a form of it in Mass. I suppose he is a liberal too by your criteria.

Far right...ME???

LOL!! Next thing I know, you'll be calling me an evangelical christian!!

No...I am neither. I am simply one who sees Obama for what he is.
 
Actions matter far more than words.

You can claim to be anything you want, that doesn't make it true.

I think you'll find that on a forum such as this, the words you use matter very much. It is hard to express yourself when words do not matter, you know.
 
I think you'll find that on a forum such as this, the words you use matter very much. It is hard to express yourself when words do not matter, you know.
We aren't talking about a politician on a forum, we are talking about what a politician does. Clearly this politician is only a D based on a self label. Never mind the fact his "coalition" gets funding from major GOP sources, follows GOP principles, and votes like a member of the GOP. That is pretty much textbook example of how words don't matter when your actions are the exact opposite of what you claim they are.

I can make another silly comparison for you.

I can claim to be spiderman but I wear a black cape and nearly bulletproof black armour, have a symbol on my chest of a bat and call all my items bat-mobile, bat-cycle, batarang, bat-bomb.
 
I don't believe progressives can acknowledge a different perspective other than their own to even rationalize with a dissenting idea towards their life and "being" to even talk such ****... Remember you're the anti-gun wing of the government and you're also the anti Bill of Rights tyrants...

Sorry if many of us understand and can philosophies with the Bill of Rights..... We and fellow patriots call that a standard - not an exception...

Our Bill of Rights is what separates you from being in Gulag or working at your remedial job if you have one...

Maybe those who want freedom should be forced to walk from Siberia to India.... Individualism will always be the prerequisite for free human will.
 
Actions matter far more than words.

You can claim to be anything you want, that doesn't make it true.

You're right, actions do matter far more than words...what matters is how they voted:

The Blue Dog Coalition, in reality, is not a vehicle conservative Democrats use to influence policy, but an artificial brand conventional Democrats have created to help market themselves. This is the true purpose of the Blue Dogs' self-imposed membership limit - the exclusivity confers on each member an unearned aura of independence and fiscal credibility.
The Blue Dogs: The Blue Dog Report

Now you can BELIEVE what you want...but how they voted is a FACT!
 
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