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House approves bill to end shutdown

Imnukingfutz said:
According to the Administration, they are not fixing anything until after it gets implemented. Which is not a real smart thing to do.
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Actually in a system where you are not sure of where the problems will come with costs that is exactly what you do. You put it into effect and you hammer out the details. Expecting perfection from the start is a BS tactic that the reps use because they do not want anything at all. Was the original constitution perfect when they put it in place? hell no, that is an absurd goal.
Imnukingfutz said:
What is burning me up about this is they are still allowing the President (any President, not just this one) to change portions of the law without Congressional approval. To me, that is a violation of the Constitutional powers of the President.
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Actually the president does have powers to decide how to implement the law. That is just you being wrong about what a president does.
Imnukingfutz said:
And why I say that...
During the Bush years, he was lambasted for going through the secretive FISA courts to wire tap peoples phones. We the people complained and the politicians gave it lip service so they seemed like they cared, but did nothing. Now we have a President that is collecting every single phone call and e-mail from every single American in the country...and now there is not even lip service against it.
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This is a whole different issue, and I agree those laws are unconstitutional and should not be in place. If the republicans in congress took obama to task over the activities of the NSA I would be all for it. They would get cheers from me for doing it. They are not going to do it because they want those powers too, and that is why I take the position they are all enemies. Still you could eliminate Obamacare and your problem still exists. Hell, if Boehner said end the patriot and espionage act or else he will not fund the government I would consider voting for the man for president as a good thing. But he didn't do that. No one made a grand stand against the patriot act. Even when they could have put it in there no one came forward to do it. So please do not tell me there are heroes in either party in that fight.
Imnukingfutz said:
You give one President an inch to bend the law the next one will take a mile shattering the law while those that represent us do nothing.
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Yeah, I have been saying that since Bush made the patriot act. I do not want obama to have that power and anyone who stood up to stop that would get immediate respect from me. Sarah Bachman could stand up and demand that and i would have to re-evaluate my position on her a good distance. That is one of those things I would actually vote for a pro-life, anti gay marriage candidate for.
Imnukingfutz said:
Consolidation of power under one branch while the others do nothing to stop it, some actually encouraging it.
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The president has always had the power to enforce the laws. It is the purpose of the branch.
 
Some quick thoughts:

1. I'm glad the impasse has been broken.

2. The outcome is more about preserving the consitutional authority of the Presidency by thwarting a precedent that could have led to "must pass" legislation being used to strip authority from the President--President Obama and future Presidents--by factions that could not accomplish their goals through the normal legislative order.

3. The Affordable Care Act can be addressed and opportunities for reform exist. Those processes should take place through the normal legislative process.

4. On the default issue, technical default might have been avoidable, but there's no guarantee, even with prioritization. Technical default would occur if the government misses either a debt service or principal payment. Had some share of Treasury holders chosen not to roll over their Treasury securities that were coming due, technical default would have resulted. Cash inflows can easily cover interest payments. They are insufficient to cover maturing Treasury obligations.

5. Even if technical default occurred, a sizable economic recession could have unfolded given the size of federal deficits relative to the economy (3%-4% of GDP + multiplier effects).

In the end, Senator Ted Cruz may well have resembled the kind of demagogue Alexander Hamilton discussed in Federalist No. 1. Hamilton wrote:

it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants.

Cruz and the Tea Party faction's unwillingness to raise the debt ceiling (and fund government) was based on a supposed desire to "help" the American people. However, it was an extreme pursuit of a non-fiscal pursuit that had nothing to do with either issue and exposed the American people to substantial risk of harm.
 
Imnukingfutz said:
Moody’s Confirms: US Won’t Default | Power Line
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Thank you. Its about time someone actually produced something like this. Well done!

Of course, the question of default is much broader than simple debt service. The government's inability to meet its obligations when they are due makes them insolvent; which has another set of consequences (Fitch was ready to downgrade).

Nonetheless, I have heard this mantra many times... I just wanted someone to defend it. You did.
 
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Thrilla said:
why do you believe a default was in the cards?
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Yes . Very high chance it could of happen

not even Moody's thought we were at risk for a default.... even if the shutdown continued or the debt ceiling wasn't increased?
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Not a risk willing to take.
 
Lukas105 said:
Well, hopefully the Libertarian party will grow in Congress with these next elections. The shutdown was just one more example of another "Great Awakening" with the American people.

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Yea.... Except those "libetarians" in the tea party, their approval raitings are at a all time low.. No awakening happening there....
 
But something to remember going forward: 144 Republicans in the House and 18 Republicans in the Senate voted for the United States to default on its debt. They were willing to destroy the full faith and credit of this country to ... what? Grow Ted Cruz's email list?
 
upsideguy said:
I can tell you why that is illogical, but I am not going to as that isn't my point. (which is that I am tired of people reiterating stuff they learned from Rush, but really have no command of the core issue). The fact that the government has sufficient funds for debt coverage does not mean the government is solvent.

I want you to show that you actually did some research on this. If this is true, that the government could not raise the debt limit and it there would not be dire consequences, then it would be pretty easy to find informed, credible support for the position. To constantly say this stuff and not having researched it is to not have an informed opinion (as I know you don't). If you can't back up your claim with experts, you probably are out on a limb (which you are).

The more you refuse to back up your assertions, the more you prove to all of us that you don't really know what you are talking about.
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no its because you have nothing, my information is so easy to get on the net

is interest on the debt mandatory sending..yes.

is mandatory spending out of congress hands... yes

is mandatory spending required to be paid no matter what happens...yes

did the government bring in 2.7 trillion in revenue last year....yes

on average what is 2.7 trillion divided by 12....225 billion a month

what was the interest on the debt per month last year ..... about 22 billion a month

does having 225 billion dollars give you enough money to pay a 22 billion dollar payment ...yes it does.

if you dont have the ability to find this for yourself, becuase you can only find the DP web site, and have to have experts.....tell you everything...then it its proof of the failing of the american education system.
 
If your getting that information from internet polls, its usually complete partisan bull****.

TheDemSocialist said:
Yea.... Except those "libetarians" in the tea party, their approval raitings are at a all time low.. No awakening happening there....
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ernst barkmann said:
does having 225 billion dollars give you enough money to pay a 22 billion dollar payment ...yes it does.
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Debt service includes both principal and interest payments. If the government can successfully roll over maturing Treasury securities, then ability to cover interest payments alone determines whether debt default takes place. However, were the federal government to default on other obligations, one cannot assume that every holder of maturing Treasury securities would roll them over at maturity. Numerous countries experienced rapidly weakening demand for debt securities leading both to skyrocketing interest rates and increasingly unsuccessful debt auctions as they approached debt default.

Each week, the Treasury rolls over approximately $100 billion in maturing Treasury securities. That exceeds average monthly revenue.

Remarks of Secretary Lew before the Economic Club of Washington, D.C.

Moreover, neither maturing obligations nor revenue flows are relatively equal each month.
 
donsutherland1 said:
Debt service includes both principal and interest payments. If the government can successfully roll over maturing Treasury securities, then ability to cover interest payments alone determines whether debt default takes place. However, were the federal government to default on other obligations, one cannot assume that every holder of maturing Treasury securities would roll them over at maturity. Numerous countries experienced rapidly weakening demand for debt securities leading both to skyrocketing interest rates and increasingly unsuccessful debt auctions as they approached debt default.

Each week, the Treasury rolls over approximately $100 billion in maturing Treasury securities. That exceeds average monthly revenue.

Remarks of Secretary Lew before the Economic Club of Washington, D.C.

Moreover, neither maturing obligations nor revenue flows are relatively equal each month.
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the government does not pay its debts as you and i do....... meaning they re-borrow to pay their debts when they come due.

america borrowed money to fight WWI , we are still paying that debt.
 
donsutherland1 said:
Debt service includes both principal and interest payments. If the government can successfully roll over maturing Treasury securities, then ability to cover interest payments alone determines whether debt default takes place. However, were the federal government to default on other obligations, one cannot assume that every holder of maturing Treasury securities would roll them over at maturity. Numerous countries experienced rapidly weakening demand for debt securities leading both to skyrocketing interest rates and increasingly unsuccessful debt auctions as they approached debt default.

Each week, the Treasury rolls over approximately $100 billion in maturing Treasury securities. That exceeds average monthly revenue.

Remarks of Secretary Lew before the Economic Club of Washington, D.C.

Moreover, neither maturing obligations nor revenue flows are relatively equal each month.
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How long would it take to reprogram the payment system to ensure debt service and principal payments were prioritized; at least a couple of weeks?
 
ernst barkmann said:
the government does not pay its debts as you and i do....... meaning they re-borrow to pay their debts when they come due.

america borrowed money to fight WWI , we are still paying it.
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You are missing the point because it displays the error in your thinking. Pending a default, there is no guarantee the demand for U.S. treasuries would be constant.
 
tererun said:
Actually in a system where you are not sure of where the problems will come with costs that is exactly what you do. You put it into effect and you hammer out the details. Expecting perfection from the start is a BS tactic that the reps use because they do not want anything at all. Was the original constitution perfect when they put it in place? hell no, that is an absurd goal.
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I hate multi part posts...its too easy to get lost...for me at least.

What about the areas where you know there is a problem but refuse to worry about fixing it because the implementation date is too near...like a lot of the things that were pointed out.

What does that have to do with repealing the E.O. that made the administration immune from the ACA? Is that the way this country works...laws for thecommon people and laws for the politically elite?

No one should ever expect perfection right off the bat, but dont treat it like Chevy treated the Vega...a known piece of horse squeeze that was a waste of money and that no one wanted but go ahead and push it out anyway because the model year is starting. We will fix the issues as we go.

Dont expect the broken BS from Washington to ever be fixed, their solution is to throw more money at it hoping it will fix itself.
 
Kushinator said:
How long would it take to reprogram the payment system to ensure debt service and principal payments were prioritized; at least a couple of weeks?
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I don't know. It would be a very large undertaking. There would probably be high risk of bugs that could still inhibit the effectiveness of a prioritization effort. IMO, the actions of some, including two possible 2016 Presidential candidates from the Senate, to use the debt ceiling as leverage for extraneous policy demands were extremely irresponsible and reckless. They appeared to have no understanding of how quickly things could disintegrate were the U.S. unable to meet all of its obligations as they come due. Even under prioritization, a glitch could lead to a missed payment, in turn leading to a market stampede. The intensive linkages between the U.S. Treasury securities market and U.S. and global financial institutions would lead to high risk of contagion. Even under successful prioritization, some investors would very likely conclude that if a nation chooses not to pay other obligations, eventually that precedent could expand elsewhere, including its debt securities. I don't think those Senators and Representatives truly understand the importance of maintaining U.S. financial credibility nor how quickly confidence can evaporate when that credibility is undermined.
 
donsutherland1 said:
I don't know. It would be a very large undertaking. There would probably be high risk of bugs that could still inhibit the effectiveness of a prioritization effort. IMO, the actions of some, including two possible 2016 Presidential candidates from the Senate, to use the debt ceiling as leverage for extraneous policy demands were extremely irresponsible and reckless. They appeared to have no understanding of how quickly things could disintegrate were the U.S. unable to meet all of its obligations as they come due. Even under prioritization, a glitch could lead to a missed payment, in turn leading to a market stampede. The intensive linkages between the U.S. Treasury securities market and U.S. and global financial institutions would lead to high risk of contagion. Even under successful prioritization, some investors would very likely conclude that if a nation chooses not to pay other obligations, eventually that precedent could expand elsewhere, including its debt securities. I don't think those Senators and Representatives truly understand the importance of maintaining U.S. financial credibility nor how quickly confidence can evaporate when that credibility is undermined.
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I couldn't agree more Don.
 
Kushinator said:
You are missing the point because it displays the error in your thinking. Pending a default, there is no guarantee the demand for U.S. treasuries would be constant.
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i do not know why simple math always fails........

the federal government collects taxes...many taxes..they dont stop...... they continue to flow into the government at a rate of over 250 billion a month.

interest on the debt is mandatory it must be paid...no matter what.

would going pass the oct 17 deadline mean something ..yes .....it would becuase the u.s. could no longer borrow money, all revenues flowing into Washington would have to be prioritized to meet current spending.

would there be enough money to cover all mandatory spending ......yes... its about 66% of all spending.......would their be enough money to cover all discretionary spending ........no.

this means government would actually have to Do real thinking, and spend money were it is actually need to do things which are required for government operations.

many of the wasteful things congress spends our money on you have to ..stop, .......and not be paid.
 
tererun said:
Actually the president does have powers to decide how to implement the law. That is just you being wrong about what a president does.
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Not when that law specifically sets a date for implementation.

Example;
The law says that portions D, J, K, & B are to be implemented on Date X, then on date X those portions become law. To not implement them on that specified date requires another law allowing its delay.

Where do all laws have to start? in Congress.

No where, anywhere does anything give a President the power to change any law.
 
ernst barkmann said:
the government does not pay its debts as you and i do....... meaning they re-borrow to pay their debts when they come due.

america borrowed money to fight WWI , we are still paying that debt.
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I never suggested otherwise. That's what rolling over maturing debt is. As noted previously, in the approach to debt default, numerous countries experienced greater and greater difficulty in issuing debt to replace maturing debt. Interest rates spiked, further undermining investor appetite for their debt securities, and soon afterward they found themselves locked out of the global debt markets. In turn, faced with what had become crushing payments obligations from the combination of rapidly rising interest costs and maturing principal obligations, they defaulted on their debt service.
 
tererun said:
This is a whole different issue, and I agree those laws are unconstitutional and should not be in place. If the republicans in congress took obama to task over the activities of the NSA I would be all for it. They would get cheers from me for doing it. They are not going to do it because they want those powers too, and that is why I take the position they are all enemies. Still you could eliminate Obamacare and your problem still exists. Hell, if Boehner said end the patriot and espionage act or else he will not fund the government I would consider voting for the man for president as a good thing. But he didn't do that. No one made a grand stand against the patriot act. Even when they could have put it in there no one came forward to do it. So please do not tell me there are heroes in either party in that fight.
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I never said there were heroes in either party, I believe I have been pretty consistent that both parties are really one and the same.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
pew reports its at record low Pew Poll: Support For Tea Party Drops To Lowest Ever : NPR
Gallup reports 1% above record low Tea Party Support Dwindles to Near-Record Low

Or is that the big bad "liberal bias"?
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It depends on what questions were submitted to be polled, who they polled, who commissioned the poll.

Poll numbers are nothing more than data to be manipulated, what results do you want.

More and more people every week seem to be going to the Tea Party meeting here in town every month.
 
Thrilla said:
why do you believe a default was in the cards?

not even Moody's thought we were at risk for a default.... even if the shutdown continued or the debt ceiling wasn't increased?
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We weren't at risk for default but we were on a downgrade watch...and were downgraded last time the debt ceiling was used as a political tool.
 
donsutherland1 said:
I never suggested otherwise. That's what rolling over maturing debt is. As noted previously, in the approach to debt default, numerous countries experienced greater and greater difficulty in issuing debt to replace maturing debt. Interest rates spiked, further undermining investor appetite for their debt securities, and soon afterward they found themselves locked out of the global debt markets. In turn, faced with what had become crushing payments obligations from the combination of rapidly rising interest costs and maturing principal obligations, they defaulted on their debt service.
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you are going to effects of what happens, because of the not being able to borrow. ...i understand that

i am stating plainly.......we were never going to default..never. those were scare tactics of politicians in Washington.

going pass the 17th, the u.s. still has the money to meet its obligations, on the mandatory spending becuase of tax revenues.

however we would not be able to borrow any more money, .......so every dime of tax money for discretionary spending would have to be prioritized.

meaning we could meet our bills on things which government must do, however things which government does not have to do, would, ..........not likely be funded.........many things would be cut, its estimated the u.s. has 1 to 1 1/2 trillion dollars in unnecessary spending, it does not have to engage in.

from 1788 to 1995....it took the u.s. to reach the 1.5 trillion dollar budget mark, today just 18 years later........our budget is 3.5 trillion..in 18 years we have more than doubled the budget, then it took 207 years to reach.

Washington has the money to pay it constitutional obligations, but going pass the 17th, means no more pork, and uncontrolled spending, Washington would have to watch every dollar it spends.
 
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