Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede[W:236]

Lord of Planar · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

roguenuke said:
No, it wasn't. Not by the EBT system. The government can show that WalMart, these WalMarts in particular knew that there was a problem with the EBT system itself and that this problem very likely would cause problems that would end up with incorrect amounts on the EBT cards being authorized. The purchases themselves do not get truly authorized til later. And unless the retailer could show that the system was faulty in a way that they couldn't identify (which we know is not the case here) then they have every right to hold the retailer (in this case these two WalMarts) responsible for those transactions.

It may be able to show that, but a judge will care about the black and white of the contract.

You cherry picked that out of the full.

Prior to delivery or upon returning to the store, the retailer shall telephone the EBT central computer or hotline number to log the transaction and obtain an authorization number. If authorization cannot be obtained before or at the time of purchase, the retailer assumes the risk for sufficient benefits being available in the household's account. Any alternate method cannot be burdensome on either the household or the retailer, and it must include acceptable privacy and security features. Such systems shall only be available to retailers that cannot be equipped with a POS terminal at the time of sale.

This was all done in accordance to this law.

Again, thanks for proving my point.

A couple other things you may wish to consider...

§ 274.12(f)(3) Transaction receipts. Households shall be provided printed receipts at the time of transaction. At a minimum this information shall:
(i) State the date, merchant's name and location, transaction type, transaction amount and remaining balance for the food stamp account;

§ 274.12(h)(1) System processing speeds. (i) For leased line systems, 98 percent of EBT transactions shall be processed within 10 seconds or less and all EBT transactions shall be processed within 15 seconds.

Seems to me that Walmart can claim they were following the set law. If they are only allowed to delay 2% of the transactions, what is your solution?

Now...

Don't get me wrong. I agree Walmart should have handled this differently, and that they abused the written law/contract. However, I do not see how Walmart will lose a dime over this.

CanadaJohn · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

roguenuke said:
A little more info.

7 CFR 274.12 - Electronic Benefit Transfer issuance system approval standards. | Code of Federal Regulations | LII / Legal Information Institute

Relevant part:

under this section

(g) Retailer participation. (1); under the first subsection here, (i), near the bottom of the paragraph.

How is that relevant since from my understanding of what happened, the cards were receiving authorization electronically through the system without identifying an available balance. Therefore, Walmart was receiving authorization from the system.

Lord of Planar · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

CanadaJohn said:
How is that relevant since from my understanding of what happened, the cards were receiving authorization electronically through the system without identifying an available balance. Therefore, Walmart was receiving authorization from the system.

LOL...

Hey... You stole my point!

LOL...

CanadaJohn · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

roguenuke said:
No, it wasn't. Not by the EBT system. The government can show that WalMart, these WalMarts in particular knew that there was a problem with the EBT system itself and that this problem very likely would cause problems that would end up with incorrect amounts on the EBT cards being authorized. The purchases themselves do not get truly authorized til later. And unless the retailer could show that the system was faulty in a way that they couldn't identify (which we know is not the case here) then they have every right to hold the retailer (in this case these two WalMarts) responsible for those transactions.

Now you're just making stuff up out of your ass.

If the system wasn't accepting card payments, how did Walmart or anyone else find out that the cards had no balance limitations on them?

Show me one piece of evidence you have that shows the Walmart stores were accepting the cards without any authorization through the system when processing a sale. I'll bet you can't.

Bob N · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Walmart shelves in Springhill, Mansfield, cleared in EBT glitch

American said:
There is no "fair" share of taxes, get the **** over it. Anyone who doesn't try to minimize their tax burden is an idiot.

Well maybe you're on to something here. If the EBT is down at a store and the store says have a "free for all" and people do not take advantage over it, I guess they're idiots.

opcorn2:

CanadaJohn · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

Lord of Planar said:
LOL...

Hey... You stole my point!

LOL...

I'm slow - you were holding the fort while I was gone.

Jack Hays · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

CanadaJohn said:
Now you're just making stuff up out of your ass.

If the system wasn't accepting card payments, how did Walmart or anyone else find out that the cards had no balance limitations on them?

Show me one piece of evidence you have that shows the Walmart stores were accepting the cards without any authorization through the system when processing a sale. I'll bet you can't.

Bingo. Center mass hit. Good afternoon, CJ.:2wave:

CanadaJohn · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

Jack Hays said:
Bingo. Center mass hit. Good afternoon, CJ.:2wave:

Good afternoon 2M - hope all is well with you. You seem to be quite a celebrity these days - congrats for getting on some people's nerves!! Just sorry Lady P. got hit in the crossfire.

American · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Walmart shelves in Springhill, Mansfield, cleared in EBT glitch

Bob N said:
Well maybe you're on to something here. If the EBT is down at a store and the store says have a "free for all" and people do not take advantage over it, I guess they're idiots. opcorn2:

Oh yeah, that's exactly the same thing. :roll:

Jack Hays · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

CanadaJohn said:
Good afternoon 2M - hope all is well with you. You seem to be quite a celebrity these days - congrats for getting on some people's nerves!! Just sorry Lady P. got hit in the crossfire.

I've made the right enemies.:mrgreen:
The fact that they took shots at Polgara speaks volumes about their lack of class.:roll:
All is well here, although I'm getting a little bored with the furlough. Dog likes it though. She thinks it's great that dad is here every day to take her to the dog park.:2dance:
I trust that all is well in Canada.

eace

Bob N · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Walmart shelves in Springhill, Mansfield, cleared in EBT glitch

American said:
Oh yeah, that's exactly the same thing. :roll:

Now you are getting it.

:2razz:

Dr. Chuckles · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

CanadaJohn said:
Two points:

1. So you believe that Walmart should have access to the personal information of all EBT customers so they know ahead of time what each EBT customer's personal available balance is at any given time before they process a sale

That is exactly how it currently works. It's operates like a gift card.

Dr. Chuckles · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

CanadaJohn said:
That's news to me - you're saying that Walmart had easy reference to the available balance through the system - is that your contention?

Yes, it's exactly what I have been telling you for two days

If so, why didn't XEROX close down the system if there was an error?

Who knows. But this is akin to arguing it's ok to loot someone's home because their doorknob is busted and they are not home to properly secure it. The argument is absurd on it's face.

Why was it still accepting cards and presumably balance enquiries as you claim when the system had a problem.

Doesn't matter why. What matters is that walmart had full knowlege the system was not working properly, but still processed the transactions on their end. Just like it doesn't matter if someone steals your car because it wasn't locked

Regardless of what happened, the onus still remains on the principals in the matter - the dishonest thieves who continued to rack up sales they didn't deserve.

and the entity that actively facilitated the crime for personal gain

Jack Hays · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

Dr. Chuckles said:
Yes, it's exactly what I have been telling you for two days

Who knows. But this is akin to arguing it's ok to loot someone's home because their doorknob is busted and they are not home to properly secure it. The argument is absurd on it's face.

Doesn't matter why. What matters is that walmart had full knowlege the system was not working properly, but still processed the transactions on their end. Just like it doesn't matter if someone steals your car because it wasn't locked

and the entity that actively facilitated the crime for personal gain

And if Wal Mart had not processed the transactions they would have been accused of starving the poor.

eace

Dr. Chuckles · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

Jack Hays said:
And if Wal Mart had not processed the transactions they would have been accused of starving the poor.eace

lol, I love how you guys cry "personal responsibility" then remove it from the decision process of Walmart. As if them or any other store ever had issue turning people away before. It was their decision to carry on with the transactions. No one forced them to do such

Talk about special pleading

Jack Hays · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

Dr. Chuckles said:
lol, I love how you guys cry "personal responsibility" then remove it from the decision process of Walmart. As if them or any other store ever had issue turning people away before. It was their decision to carry on with the transactions. No one forced them to do such

Talk about special pleading

No special pleading here. Just recognition of social/political reality. I noted in the story that WalMart hqs gave the go ahead. That was no doubt a PR decision. The money involved is peanuts to WalMart. Better to have this story on the news rather than a story about stingy WalMart. They made a rational decision in a no-win situation.

eace

Dr. Chuckles · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

Jack Hays said:
No special pleading here.

That is exactly what it is. You are arguing for a standard to be applied to the welfare moops who tried to exploit a system failure for personal gain, but plead that such standards should not apply to Walmart, even though they also tried to exploit the failure for personal gain, while lacking any real basis to make such a distinction on.

That is the very definition of "special pleading"

Just recognition of social/political reality. I noted in the story that WalMart hqs gave the go ahead. That was no doubt a PR decision. The money involved is peanuts to WalMart.

I doubt they were really concerned about PR, being that every other walmart shut down sales and they have no issue with turning away people in any other circumstance

Better to have this story on the news rather than a story about stingy WalMart. They made a rational decision in a no-win situation.eace

oh poor victim walmart who lacks any ability to exercise personal responsibility . Maybe you should call them up and make a donation.

Jack Hays · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

Dr. Chuckles said:
That is exactly what it is. You are arguing for a standard to be applied to the welfare moops who tried to exploit a system failure for personal gain, but plead that such standards should not apply to Walmart, even though they also tried to exploit the failure for personal gain, while lacking any real basis to make such a distinction on.

That is the very definition of "special pleading"

I doubt they were really concerned about PR, being that every other walmart shut down sales and they have no issue with turning away people in any other circumstance

oh poor victim walmart who lacks any ability to exercise personal responsibility . Maybe you should call them up and make a donation.

You are being quite obtuse. My point is that the money lost is nothing to WalMart compared to the positive PR. WalMart won. They need no help from me or anyone else.

eace

Dr. Chuckles · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

Jack Hays said:
You are being quite obtuse. My point is that the money lost is nothing to WalMart compared to the positive PR. WalMart won. They need no help from me or anyone else.eace

it may be nothing, but the fact they are trying to challenge it speaks to the fact they are not happy about it, and their general conduct surrounding the situation has hardly painted them in a positive light. The most that would be accomplished by eating the loss is not making them look any worse

CanadaJohn · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

Dr. Chuckles said:
Yes, it's exactly what I have been telling you for two days

Who knows. But this is akin to arguing it's ok to loot someone's home because their doorknob is busted and they are not home to properly secure it. The argument is absurd on it's face.

Doesn't matter why. What matters is that walmart had full knowlege the system was not working properly, but still processed the transactions on their end. Just like it doesn't matter if someone steals your car because it wasn't locked

and the entity that actively facilitated the crime for personal gain

So let's recap.

You have just stated that yes, you've been telling me for two days, that Walmart had access to available balances through the system and yet the whole problem seems to be that the system wasn't registering/recognizing available balances and were, in effect, unlimited. So it's your contention that Walmart had more knowledge related to the EBT system than the company contracted by the government to manage the system, correct? Again, news to me and I'd like you to identify the source you're relying upon to make that contention.

You deny that the system was working sufficiently that Walmart was able to access the system with the EBT cards and the system was authorizing the purchase but it wasn't providing an available balance before or after the purchase, correct? But you contend that Walmart, somehow miraculously, knew what everyone's available balance was and you agree with those who have claimed that Walmart was approving purchases without the EBT system authorization, correct? Again, I'd appreciate your proof of such a conflicting scenario.

You confirm you have no idea why XEROX did not shut the system down, correct? Would you also confirm or do you dispute that XEROX, as the contractor/agent engaged by the government, has sole responsibility for managing the issuance of cards, maintaining and issuing balances, and authorizing purchases using the EBT cards based on balances and payments authorized by the government agency that contracted their services?

Do you confirm or deny that Walmart's responsibility in the system is to 1) accept cards as legal tender for payment of purchases 2) confirm through the XEROX managed system that purchases are authorized and 3) issue a receipt that provides information from the XEROX system itemizing the purchases made during the transaction, the total expenditure related to those purchases and the balance remaining available on the EBT card so the customer is duly informed?

Do you have any knowledge to deny that Walmart performed their functions as listed above fully and in compliance with their contractural agreement under the system?

Jack Hays · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

Dr. Chuckles said:
it may be nothing, but the fact they are trying to challenge it speaks to the fact they are not happy about it, and their general conduct surrounding the situation has hardly painted them in a positive light. The most that would be accomplished by eating the loss is not making them look any worse

On the contrary, by challenging it they keep it in the news and make themselves look better. The longer the better.

Summerwind · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

Dr. Chuckles said:
it may be nothing, but the fact they are trying to challenge it speaks to the fact they are not happy about it, and their general conduct surrounding the situation has hardly painted them in a positive light. The most that would be accomplished by eating the loss is not making them look any worse

Are they fighting it? I figured they would, but hadn't kept up with whether they actually had yet.

roguenuke · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

Lord of Planar said:
Am I wrong?

Authorization was approved, wasn't it?

Thanks for proving my point.

No, it was not authorized. That is the point. It isn't my fault that you do not understand that there is a difference between the store authorizing the purchase and the EBT authorizing the purchase.

roguenuke · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

CanadaJohn said:
Of course a "Louisiana official" is going to cover their ass and say it's all Walmart's fault. I'd fall flat on the floor if a government stooge ever took responsibility for anything.

Let's see what a court says, if it ever gets there.

I posted the federal law and gave exactly where it says that retailers that do such things are liable for the purchase.

Dr. Chuckles · Oct 16, 2013

Re: Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede

CanadaJohn said:
So let's recap.

You have just stated that yes, you've been telling me for two days, that Walmart had access to available balances through the system and yet the whole problem seems to be that the system wasn't registering/recognizing available balances and were, in effect, unlimited. So it's your contention that Walmart had more knowledge related to the EBT system than the company contracted by the government to manage the system, correct? Again, news to me and I'd like you to identify the source you're relying upon to make that contention.

You're not making sense. When the system is working properly, the cashier can reference the available balance. Hence it operates like a gift card and not your earlier comparison to a check or banking card. When the system went faulty, the cards were showing an unlimited balance. Walmart staff correctly recognized this as a failure in the system and contacted corporate.

You claimed this justified walmart facilitating charges to these accounts because it was not their responsibility. I pointed out this was helping to facilitate the crime, because Walmart had working knowledge of the system, showed they were aware that it was not working properly. And in similar circumstances involving a bank, per your previous examples, would also be liable. Being that they tried to knowingly exploit a system error for personal benefit, just like the welfare moops.

You deny that the system was working sufficiently that Walmart was able to access the system with the EBT cards and the system was authorizing the purchase but it wasn't providing an available balance before or after the purchase, correct?

1) No, I keep pointing out walmart knew the system wasn't working properly, because anyone semi familier with the system knows EBT cards do not have an unlimited balance, and they contacted corporate about it.

2) No, I was pointing out they have access to the information on the card, like any other gift card system and that they can easily reference it. This was in response to you claiming walmart had no access to such information and could not know there was such an error (also ignoring the manager contacted corporate)

Go back and reread the discussion and familiarize yourself with the information available, as opposed to confusing yourself in an effort to justify the inherent contradictions on the point of personal responsibility and your various other positions here

After that, I'll be happy to continue this

Food stamp glitch leads to Wal-Mart stampede[W:236]

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