Utah national parks to open Saturday with state aid

clownboy · Oct 13, 2013

Lord Tammerlain said:
Keeping out people is the only aspect that would be essential. A janitor would not be seen as essential. Only keeping the boilers operating would be considered essential, not picking up trash, as the trash would not be there is people are not there. Vandalism is easiest to prevent when people are not around

Not by a long shot. Keeping the people from THEIR land is hardly essential. Keeping it clean and free from vandalism is indeed "protection". If your last statement were true then it would be easiest to never open the land to the public.

Lord Tammerlain · Oct 13, 2013

clownboy said:
Case one, she has no case, she knows the park maintenance is shut down, that's purely a signage issue.

Case two, emergency services are exempt from the shutdown as noted in your link.

Case three, happens all the time right now and they have no case. Once again a signage issue. Besides protection and guarding of the geysers falls under the exemptions noted in your link.

Protection from vandalism falls under your linked exceptions. The law suit issues fall under simple signage.

And the easiest and cheapest way to protect the park and buildings is to keep the park free from people

As for slips and falls, it is not a signage issue when the area is not normally a slip or fall area. Grocery stores can and are sued when they do not have tripping/slippery hazard signs up (in cases of recent mopping), in cases of fruit (grapes for instance) being on the floor with no sign present, it can lead to a lawsuit and has.

Case 2, given there would be no park staff except for a few park rangers, they would have difficultly finding someone to report the problem too. Phone lines could and most likely be down, the lack of staff could be seen as negligent, and leave the government open to being sued

Case 3. Aunt Abby is a German tourist, who can not read English, and no park guides were around to provide warnings, again negligent in protecting the public from hazards

Lord Tammerlain · Oct 13, 2013

clownboy said:
Not by a long shot. Keeping the people from THEIR land is hardly essential. Keeping it clean and free from vandalism is indeed "protection". If your last statement were true then it would be easiest to never open the land to the public.

Under normal circumstances, having janitorial staff would be allowed. Thus the park could be open to the general public. The same would go with the other park staff from security to general admin. This is not normal, and only those which are essential to the protection of the land and building is allowed. Having janitors on the job so the public can see the geyser is not essential and could lead to the manager being arrested

Moot · Oct 13, 2013

Mason66 said:
In this case the Federal government is the outsider so your statement doesn't make sense.

In this case the Federal government prevents the state from over developing the land where there isn't any water and short term resource exploitation for the benefit of a few.

If anything good could be said to come out of this shut down, its that the people of Utah are finally starting to realize just how much their own communittees and small businesses depend on the National Parks and the Department of Defense for their economic existence. Utahans are not happy or amused with Mr. Mike Lee's grand standing shenagians and it's starting to show in the polls. Mr. Lee's favorability is dropping like a lead balloon.....

Most Utahns disapprove of Sen. Mike Lee, want him to compromise | The Salt Lake Tribune

Cruz and Lee both suffer in the polls

I pray he takes the rest of the tea party legislators down with him.

sawyerloggingon · Oct 13, 2013

Moot said:
The state wants control over federal lands simply so they can 'drill baby drill' on some the most protected scenic wildlife areas in the world and to sell off huge parcels of land to private developers. There is absolutely zero benefit for the public to sell off or let the state control their public lands. For one thing, it would raise state taxes, the public would never see the profits, and if the land is sold they wouldn't have access to it anymore. So what would be the point...what is the benefit for the public? After all, it is their land and it should stay that way for future generations to enjoy.

So you are changing the subject from national parks to all fed lands or are you saying Utah would turn Arches into a parking lot? As I showed you earlier Utah has a great record for protecting its most scenic treasures.

sawyerloggingon · Oct 13, 2013

Moot said:
Tourists aren't all they're cracked up to be. Even when the park is open they tend not to follow the rules and leave their garbage around and put themselves and others in danger. Every year we hear about some tourist getting lost, or stranded on a cliff ledge or getting too close to the buffalo and the bears. Some tourists are just rude, obnoxious assholes and think the world should revolve around them. I suspect that's the case for most of those tourists complaining the loudest.

Have you ever even visited Utah's parks or do you just sit in your house and bitch about them?

clownboy · Oct 13, 2013

Lord Tammerlain said:
And the easiest and cheapest way to protect the park and buildings is to keep the park free from people

"Easiest" and "cheapest" are not requirements and never has been. If they were the facilities would never be open to the public in the first place.

Lord Tammerlain said:
As for slips and falls, it is not a signage issue when the area is not normally a slip or fall area. Grocery stores can and are sued when they do not have tripping/slippery hazard signs up (in cases of recent mopping), in cases of fruit (grapes for instance) being on the floor with no sign present, it can lead to a lawsuit and has.

Yes it is. You start by denying it and then proving it with your examples.

Lord Tammerlain said:
Case 2, given there would be no park staff except for a few park rangers, they would have difficultly finding someone to report the problem too. Phone lines could and most likely be down, the lack of staff could be seen as negligent, and leave the government open to being sued

But there IS park staff there, who exactly do you think is ticketting the people. Who is doing the exempted protecting?

Lord Tammerlain said:
Case 3. Aunt Abby is a German tourist, who can not read English, and no park guides were around to provide warnings, again negligent in protecting the public from hazards

And since when was it a requirement for park rangers to speak all the languages of the earth? Indeed it is a signage issue and the German tourist has no case.

Linc · Oct 13, 2013

sawyerloggingon said:
So you are changing the subject from national parks to all fed lands or are you saying Utah would turn Arches into a parking lot?.

I believe she is saying that Utah would 'privatize' the National Parks, though I must say they have had some pretty good Governors in my 40 years going out there.

clownboy · Oct 13, 2013

Lord Tammerlain said:
Under normal circumstances, having janitorial staff would be allowed. Thus the park could be open to the general public. The same would go with the other park staff from security to general admin. This is not normal, and only those which are essential to the protection of the land and building is allowed. Having janitors on the job so the public can see the geyser is not essential and could lead to the manager being arrested

Hah! Not even by a long shot. Either the staff is there to protect the park or they are not. The staff may be reduced, but once again, signage that already exists can easily be put in place. Those who are doing the ticketting of these runners for example could easily also be ticketting for littering in a national park (huge, huge fines.)

Linc · Oct 13, 2013

Call on me please..
Just a stroll in on I-70 from Grand Junction leads you through the Great Swale/Dixie Natl Forest, where road signs remind you of driving weary..At close to 8,000, you need a stiff caffeine and some legal speed.

sawyerloggingon said:
Have you ever even visited Utah's parks or do you just sit in your house and bitch about them?

Linc · Oct 13, 2013

And we still haven't touched on National Forests and National Monuments, which the Black Canyon of the Gunnison used to be, before gaining status to the National Park level.

clownboy said:
Hah! Not even by a long shot. Either the staff is there to protect the park or they are not. The staff may be reduced, but once again, signage that already exists can easily be put in place. Those who are doing the ticketting of these runners for example could easily also be ticketting for littering in a national park (huge, huge fines.)

sawyerloggingon · Oct 13, 2013

upsideguy said:
sawyerloggingon said:

The states already get the revenue that national parks bring in.... They may not get park admission fees, but they get ALL of the other revenue generated by tourists (which is 95% of the revenue to be gained by having a national park). The states are anxious to reopen these parks because their closure, particularly in a state like Utah, has a huge negative impact on tourism.

Moreover, its actually in the states interest to have a national park rather than a state park as 1) the national government picks up the capital expenditure tab, which is huge (yet states benefit) and 2) a national park has much more panache than a state park (how many people go out of their way to go the the Adirondack park, even though it is twice as large as Yelllowstone?)

Click to expand...

I'm talking admission fees, national parks are money making machines.

Lord Tammerlain · Oct 13, 2013

clownboy said:
"Easiest" and "cheapest" are not requirements and never has been. If they were the facilities would never be open to the public in the first place.

If there is no staff to put up a tripping hazard sign then it is a potential lawsuit. Tripping/ slipping hazard signs can be portable and moved where required.

Yes it is. You start by denying it and then proving it with your examples.

But there IS park staff there, who exactly do you think is ticketting the people. Who is doing the exempted protecting?

They are protecting the land and building, not answering phones. How would the family get ahold of a park ranger, but by calling the park hq, which might not have any staff

And since when was it a requirement for park rangers to speak all the languages of the earth? Indeed it is a signage issue and the German tourist has no case.

Again it would depend

If people can sue from kids drowning in pools

The family alleges that the child care center's employees should have known that Vicente was "a hyperactive child" and an inexperienced swimmer, and that they failed to provide proper supervision on the day of the incident.

Michael Carter, an attorney representing the Cardenas family, said his clients suffered tremendous emotional trauma and are seeking damages in excess of $10 million.

"What happened here is beyond negligence," Carter said. "You don't open a pool to kids unless you provide a safe environment for them."

Family sues over boy's 2012 drowning - Chicago Tribune

They can sue for someone being burnt from a geyser

Unitedwestand13 · Oct 13, 2013

clownboy said:
Hah! Not even by a long shot. Either the staff is there to protect the park or they are not. The staff may be reduced, but once again, signage that already exists can easily be put in place. Those who are doing the ticketting of these runners for example could easily also be ticketting for littering in a national park (huge, huge fines.)

if the parks are operating less staff then normal, then the remaining members of the staff have to take up more jobs and tasks then the ones they are normally trained to do.

Linc · Oct 13, 2013

Not nearly as much as they should be..That's just me though..
Remember when we had this funding problem with NEWT back in the 90's..
Finally doubled the 13-month pass to $50 from $25, still underpriced..
Many great Park projects were then completed.

sawyerloggingon said:
I'm talking admission fees, national parks are money making machines.

sawyerloggingon · Oct 13, 2013

NIMBY said:
I believe she is saying that Utah would 'privatize' the National Parks, though I must say they have had some pretty good Governors in my 40 years going out there.

Well she is full of crap.

clownboy · Oct 13, 2013

sawyerloggingon said:
Well she is full of crap.

Wrong thread. We're talking about exploding toilets elsewhere. :mrgreen:

Linc · Oct 13, 2013

Amen to this one Sister Moot..
How about the idiots who don't take enough water to the bottom of the Grand Canyon and must be life-flighted out..
A new one I've noticed is "squatters" on BLM land abutting Natl Forests leaving trash, drawing Bear near Natl Forest campgrounds.

Moot said:
Tourists aren't all they're cracked up to be. Even when the park is open they tend not to follow the rules and leave their garbage around and put themselves and others in danger. Every year we hear about some tourist getting lost, or stranded on a cliff ledge or getting too close to the buffalo and the bears. Some tourists are just rude, obnoxious assholes and think the world should revolve around them. I suspect that's the case for most of those tourists complaining the loudest.

Linc · Oct 13, 2013

Trying to find a middle ground around here reminds me of being the oldest child when I was younger and refereeing between Mom and Dad..

sawyerloggingon said:
Well she is full of crap.

Grant · Oct 13, 2013

Lord Tammerlain said:
The Antideficiency Act

The reason the national parks are shut down right now

No, the reason the parks are shut down is because the Democrats refused to fund them, despite a Republican offer to fund federal parks as well as Veterans Affairs.

This land is our land, it sure ain’t your land
From downtown DC to the Lake Mead shoreland
From the Arctic Refuge to the Gulf Stream waters
This land is closed to you and yours

So don’t go cruisin’ that endless Skyline
And quit your fishin’, put down that fly line
Don’t pay respects to your country’s war heroes
Their land is closed to you and yours

Don’t even look at that view of Rushmore
Don’t volunteer now, you need to hush more
Don’t even think of parking near George Washington’s
This land is closed to you and yours

This land is our land, it sure ain’t your land
From Cuyahoga to the old Claude Moore land
From the Blue Ridge Mountains to the yellow police tape
Red lines are made for you, not Assad.

-Mark Steyn

Moot · Oct 13, 2013

sawyerloggingon said:
So you are changing the subject from national parks to all fed lands or are you saying Utah would turn Arches into a parking lot? As I showed you earlier Utah has a great record for protecting its most scenic treasures.

The state would do a lot worse, they'd take bribes and kickbacks from the energy companies to allow an oil rig to operate right next to Delicate Arch.

"....A month ago, Redford, a trustee of the National Resources Defense Council, voiced support for a federal lawsuit aimed at blocking the Bush administration's "morally criminal" attempt to auction 103,000 acres of scenic redrock desert for oil and gas drilling near Arches and Canyonlands national parks and Dinosaur National Monument....<snip>.....

CORE's ties: In July, the Congress of Racial Equality joined with the High-Impact Leadership Coalition to advocate for increased U.S. domestic oil and gas production through the "Stop the War on the Poor" campaign.

Last month, the two groups announced their "don't freeze us out" campaign to support the Bush administration auction in Utah of oil and gas leases, some near national parks.

The Leadership Coalition is affiliated with Americans for American Energy, according to SourceWatch, a nonprofit watchdog supported by the left-leaning Center for Media and Democracy.

Americans for American Energy is headed by Coloradan Jim Sims, who also runs the Western Business Roundtable. Former Utah lawmaker Aaron Tilton is an AAE officer. He, Sims and Utah Rep. Mike Noel, R-Kanab, brought Innis to the Utah Legislature last year to argue for more energy development, shortly after AAE circulated an electronic missive linking wilderness supporters with Osama bin Laden, Venezuela President Hugo Chavez and Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Western Business Roundtable's board of trustees includes Questar Market Resources Inc., Rio Tinto, Peabody Coal, Shell Oil and Western Fuels Association.....read....

Utah Local News - Salt Lake City News, Sports, Archive - The Salt Lake Tribune

Tea party Rep. Mike Noel is one of the more vociferous and obnoxious voices for the state to take over federal land...but as you can see above he has strong ties to oil and gas money.

Linc · Oct 13, 2013

In its entirety, I would put Utah a shade ahead of Colorado for incredible "Mother Nature" features..
If people point out some of Utah's desert, I point out Eastern Colorado, especially the part that wants to secede.
Its good we are talking about what great gifts our Nation provides us.

sawyerloggingon said:
I have gone to Utah for vacations for 30 years and been all over the state but I always end up around Moab riding slick rock. Freakin beautiful state!

sawyerloggingon · Oct 13, 2013

Moot said:
The state would do worse, they'd take bribes and kickbacks from the energy companies to allow an oil rig to operate right next to Delicate Arch.

"....A month ago, Redford, a trustee of the National Resources Defense Council, voiced support for a federal lawsuit aimed at blocking the Bush administration's "morally criminal" attempt to auction 103,000 acres of scenic redrock desert for oil and gas drilling near Arches and Canyonlands national parks and Dinosaur National Monument....<snip>.....

CORE's ties: In July, the Congress of Racial Equality joined with the High-Impact Leadership Coalition to advocate for increased U.S. domestic oil and gas production through the "Stop the War on the Poor" campaign.

Last month, the two groups announced their "don't freeze us out" campaign to support the Bush administration auction in Utah of oil and gas leases, some near national parks.

The Leadership Coalition is affiliated with Americans for American Energy, according to SourceWatch, a nonprofit watchdog supported by the left-leaning Center for Media and Democracy.

Americans for American Energy is headed by Coloradan Jim Sims, who also runs the Western Business Roundtable. Former Utah lawmaker Aaron Tilton is an AAE officer. He, Sims and Utah Rep. Mike Noel, R-Kanab, brought Innis to the Utah Legislature last year to argue for more energy development, shortly after AAE circulated an electronic missive linking wilderness supporters with Osama bin Laden, Venezuela President Hugo Chavez and Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Western Business Roundtable's board of trustees includes Questar Market Resources Inc., Rio Tinto, Peabody Coal, Shell Oil and Western Fuels Association.....read....

Utah Local News - Salt Lake City News, Sports, Archive - The Salt Lake Tribune

Rep. Mike Noel is one of the more vociferous and obnoxious voices for the state to take over federal land...but as you can see above he has strong ties to the oil and gas money.

I see no problem with doing things NEAR parks or wilderness. Just how far should this buffer zone extend in your opinion? One mile? Ten miles? A hundred miles???? The boundary is the boundary.

clownboy · Oct 13, 2013

NIMBY said:
In its entirety, I would put Utah a shade ahead of Colorado for incredible "Mother Nature" features..
If people point out some of Utah's desert, I point out Eastern Colorado, especially the part that wants to secede.
Its good we are talking about what great gifts our Nation provides us.

Oregon kicks ass in that regard. Deserts, mountains, shoreline, forests and green, green, green.

Linc · Oct 13, 2013

Most tourists from the midwest and east have no clue to the intensity of mineral rights fights in the 'InterMountain West', beginning with water..
As a younger tourist, I learned how Idaho potato farmers actually own all water rights to Jackson lake in Wyoming, within the Grand Tetons, and how it happened..

Moot said:
The state would do a lot worse, they'd take bribes and kickbacks from the energy companies to allow an oil rig to operate right next to Delicate Arch.

Rep. Mike Noel is one of the more vociferous and obnoxious voices for the state to take over federal land...but as you can see above he has strong ties to oil and gas money.