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Vietnam's General Vo Nguyen Giap dies

Morality Games said:
Nobody that important. But farms and villages that got in the way of large scale operations took heavy losses.

I'm not getting involved in a debate about the unauthorized massacres or the gas.
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You Leftists need to SERIOUSLY become more informed.

The Viet Cong set up provisional authorities shortly after capturing Huế in the early hours of January 31, 1968, and was charged with removing the existing government administration from power within the city and replacing it with a "revolutionary administration." Working from lists of "cruel tyrants and reactionary elements" previously developed by VC intelligence officers, many people were to be rounded up following the initial hours of the attack. These included Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) soldiers, civil servants, political party members, local religious leaders, American civilians and other international people.

Massacre at Hu
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The Đắk Sơn Massacre was a massacre committed by the Viet Cong during the Vietnam War, in the village of Đắk Sơn, Đắk Lắk Province, South Vietnam.

On December 5, 1967, two battalions of Viet Cong systematically killed 252 civilians in a "vengeance" attack on the hamlet of Đắk Sơn, home to over 2,000 Montagnards, known for their fierce opposition to the Viet Cong. The Vietcong believed that the hamlet had at one point given aid to refugees fleeing Viet Cong forces.

Over 600 troops marched into the village, using flamethrowers to destroy the shelters and kill the men, women, and children who lived there. As the Viet Cong fired their weapons, people were incinerated inside their own homes, and some who had managed to escape into foxholes in their homes died of smoke inhalation. The homes that were not destroyed by flamethrowers were destroyed with grenades, and on the way out patches of the main town were set afire. Just before they left the village, the Viet Cong shot 60 of the 160 survivors. Most of the remaining villagers were taken hostage.


Đắk Sơn massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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My Lai was the act of one rogue platoon. Dak Son and Hue were the result of official Communist policy.
 
There is no reason for Giap to have ever fought against the U.S. We should have told the French imperialists to get stuffed back in 1945 and avoided the whole mess. The Vietnam War was the culmination of decades of political screw ups.
 
NIMBY said:
I read your article. Leave it to Sen. McCain to show some class, and I am being sincere.
Here's another article. You may be comforted by the comments at the bottom.
I hope your "feelings" toward liberals and anti war activists will simmer in your remaining time on Earth.
My Dad was never the same after his several TDYs over there, as I remember from Mom.

Legendary Vietnam Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap dies at 102 - Associated Press - POLITICO.com

The article points out that Giap was out of the Country during Tet and was said to not be involved in its planning.
Giap was also said to have been eased out after Ho Chih Minh died.
It may not be my business, but I think you need to talk with brother Perotista a little more, even by PM. Best Wishes
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That's what his family says and that may be true..... which means very little or nothing. But there is no denying he was part of the planning of TET. Moreover some of us were there and know first hand. So I doubt I would need to check with anyone on it.....

These lessons were driven home in the Tet offensive of 1968, when North Vietnamese regulars and Vietcong guerrillas attacked scores of military targets and provincial capitals throughout South Vietnam, only to be thrown back with staggering losses. General Giap had expected the offensive to set off uprisings and show the Vietnamese that the Americans were vulnerable.

General Giap had studied the military teachings of Mao Zedong, who wrote that political indoctrination, terrorism and sustained guerrilla warfare were prerequisites for a successful revolution. Using this strategy, General Giap defeated the French Army’s elite and its Foreign Legion at Dien Bien Phu in May 1954, forcing France from Indochina and earning the grudging admiration of the French.

“He learned from his mistakes and did not repeat them,” Gen. Marcel Bigeard, who as a young colonel of French paratroops surrendered at Dien Bien Phu, told Peter G. Macdonald, one of General Giap’s biographers. But “to Giap,” he said, “a man’s life was nothing.”

Hanoi’s casualty estimates are unreliable, so the cost of General Giap’s victories will probably never be known. About 94,000 French troops died in the war to keep Vietnam, and the struggle for independence killed, by conservative estimates, about 300,000 Vietnamese fighters. In the American war, about 2.5 million North and South Vietnamese died out of a total population of 32 million. America lost about 58,000 service members.

“Every minute, hundreds of thousands of people die on this earth,” General Giap is said to have remarked after the war with France. “The life or death of a hundred, a thousand, tens of thousands of human beings, even our compatriots, means little.” .....snip~

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/world/asia/gen-vo-nguyen-giap-dies.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Edit.....btw, Al Zawahiri and AQ are following the same teachings.
 
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APACHERAT said:
The ROK Tiger Division ? I know a former Army crew chief on a slick who said he witnessed it.

My last six months in-country I served along side ROK Marines Blue Dragons. Their TAR was in and around Hoi An. It's interesting that to the best of my knowledge that Hoi An was the only city in the RVN that wasn't attacked during Tet of 68.

Charley were scared ######## of ROK soldiers and Marines.
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Were you chauffeured around by the 129th Assault Helicopter Company?
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Indonesia.



Pakistan.
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Oh, you're so informed. Indonesia likes Japan because they oppose the Chinese, and Pakistan isn't an Asian country...at least most Asian don't consider them to be. Perhaps you could provide some dialogue to support your answers.
 
APACHERAT said:
The ROK Tiger Division ? I know a former Army crew chief on a slick who said he witnessed it.

My last six months in-country I served along side ROK Marines Blue Dragons. Their TAR was in and around Hoi An. It's interesting that to the best of my knowledge that Hoi An was the only city in the RVN that wasn't attacked during Tet of 68.

Charley were scared ######## of ROK soldiers and Marines.
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Yeah they did.....but we didn't give any Orders, and some of them were reprimanded. Which was all we were going to get and all we got.
 
SBu said:
Oh, you're so informed.
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Thank you.

Indonesia likes Japan because they oppose the Chinese,
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Source?

and Pakistan isn't an Asian country...at least most Asian don't consider them to be.
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asia-political-map.jpg

Perhaps you could provide some dialogue to support your answers.
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BBC News - Pakistani PM hails China as his country's 'best friend'

82% of Indonesians view Japan favorably, making them the most pro-Japanese country in the world.

http://www.globescan.com/images/ima...gs/2013_country_rating_poll_bbc_globescan.pdf
 
I never doubt the word of a Veteran, since my Father was one.
I met my best "Vietnam" friend the summer after I graduated in 1971.
He was the boss of our summer crew that worked for the town where I graduated.
He turned me on to Led Zeppelin and told me stories I still try to forget.
He was instrumental in inspiring me to "Go West" to the Rocky Mountains, especially the Canadians and Lake Louise.
He was injured, physically and other ways, like a lot of guys in our small town. They didn't have the 2S deferment.
I got real cynical when I was 1H for 7 years starting in 1972, the first year of no 2S deferment, while my friends pulled strings to get into National Guards out-of-state.
I went to College, knowing Kissinger wouldn't draft during an election year.
I "lost" my friend 6 years ago, too difficult to describe how he went.
MMC said:
That's what his family says and that may be true..... which means very little or nothing. But there is no denying he was part of the planning of TET. Moreover some of us were there and know first hand. So I doubt I would need to check with anyone on it.....

These lessons were driven home in the Tet offensive of 1968, when North Vietnamese regulars and Vietcong guerrillas attacked scores of military targets and provincial capitals throughout South Vietnam, only to be thrown back with staggering losses. General Giap had expected the offensive to set off uprisings and show the Vietnamese that the Americans were vulnerable.

General Giap had studied the military teachings of Mao Zedong, who wrote that political indoctrination, terrorism and sustained guerrilla warfare were prerequisites for a successful revolution. Using this strategy, General Giap defeated the French Army’s elite and its Foreign Legion at Dien Bien Phu in May 1954, forcing France from Indochina and earning the grudging admiration of the French.

“He learned from his mistakes and did not repeat them,” Gen. Marcel Bigeard, who as a young colonel of French paratroops surrendered at Dien Bien Phu, told Peter G. Macdonald, one of General Giap’s biographers. But “to Giap,” he said, “a man’s life was nothing.”

Hanoi’s casualty estimates are unreliable, so the cost of General Giap’s victories will probably never be known. About 94,000 French troops died in the war to keep Vietnam, and the struggle for independence killed, by conservative estimates, about 300,000 Vietnamese fighters. In the American war, about 2.5 million North and South Vietnamese died out of a total population of 32 million. America lost about 58,000 service members.

“Every minute, hundreds of thousands of people die on this earth,” General Giap is said to have remarked after the war with France. “The life or death of a hundred, a thousand, tens of thousands of human beings, even our compatriots, means little.” .....snip~

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/world/asia/gen-vo-nguyen-giap-dies.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Edit.....btw, Al Zawahiri and AQ are following the same teachings.
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Jredbaron96 said:
Um, no. The word 'Gook' first appeared in 1893 to refer to a prostitute.
up.
.
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It was the first time it appeared in print.

Pick up the personal journal of Joseph Walker (trail blazer, fur trapper, Indian fighter)

In his journal while in San Diego during the Mexican American war he writes he was present when Lt. Gillespie (U.S. Marine) was reporting to Commodore Stockton and reported "We killed some gooks yesterday." Walker asked Lt. Gillespie what was a gook ? Gillespie said Mexicans. That gook is anything that isn't American, foreign, strange or different.

You can also find the word used in other Lt./Capt Gillipsi reports and papers held by the California State Military Museum in Sacramento and also find the word gook used in U.S. Navy ships logs and reports during the first half of the 19th Century at the U.S. Navy's archives located at the Washington DC Navy Yard.

You can also read Richard Tregaskis book, "Guadalcanal Diary" where U.S. Marines routinely refer to the island of Guadalcanal as a gook island, not in reference to the Melanesian natives or the Japanese troops on the island but in reference to the jungle, rain, heat, humidity and the mud that was different and strange to the Marines who weren't use to the tropical island in the Southwest Pacific. A strange place compared to the Bronx.

 
APACHERAT said:
It was the first time it appeared in print.
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Glad you could admit that.


Pick up the personal journal of Joseph Walker (trail blazer, fur trapper, Indian fighter)
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Right, because I happen to have one lying around.

In his journal while in San Diego during the Mexican American war he writes he was present when Lt. Gillespie (U.S. Marine) was reporting to Commodore Stockton and reported "We killed some gooks yesterday." Walker asked Lt. Gillespie what was a gook ? Gillespie said Mexicans. That gook is anything that isn't American, foreign, strange or different.
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I've never heard of anyone using the term 'Gook' to refer to a place or setting. Even so, it has far more commonly been used to refer derogatorily to people.
 
NIMBY said:
I never doubt the word of a Veteran, since my Father was one.
I met my best "Vietnam" friend the summer after I graduated in 1971.
He was the boss of our summer crew that worked for the town where I graduated.
He turned me on to Led Zeppelin and told me stories I still try to forget.
He was instrumental in inspiring me to "Go West" to the Rocky Mountains, especially the Canadians and Lake Louise.
He was injured, physically and other ways, like a lot of guys in our small town. They didn't have the 2S deferment.
I got real cynical when I was 1H for 7 years starting in 1972, while my friends pulled strings to get into National Guards out-of-state.
I went to College, knowing Kissinger wouldn't draft during an election year.
I "lost" my friend 6 years ago, too difficult to describe how he went.
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That's great and I am glad to know your Father served.....that you had a friend that was there and made it home. Now you know another. Sua Sponte!

I am sure both would have pointed out the truth to you about Giap. Despite what Johnny Quest McCain has to say.
 
APACHERAT said:
It was the first time it appeared in print.

Pick up the personal journal of Joseph Walker (trail blazer, fur trapper, Indian fighter)

In his journal while in San Diego during the Mexican American war he writes he was present when Lt. Gillespie (U.S. Marine) was reporting to Commodore Stockton and reported "We killed some gooks yesterday." Walker asked Lt. Gillespie what was a gook ? Gillespie said Mexicans. That gook is anything that isn't American, foreign, strange or different.

You can also find the word used in other Lt./Capt Gillipsi reports and papers held by the California State Military Museum in Sacramento and also find the word gook used in U.S. Navy ships logs and reports during the first half of the 19th Century at the U.S. Navy's archives located at the Washington DC Navy Yard.

You can also read Richard Tregaskis book, "Guadalcanal Diary" where U.S. Marines routinely refer to the island of Guadalcanal as a gook island, not in reference to the Melanesian natives or the Japanese troops on the island but in reference to the jungle, rain, heat, humidity and the mud that was different and strange to the Marines who weren't use to the tropical island in the Southwest Pacific. A strange place compared to the Bronx.

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Well you're not to concerned about those high brow judgments now.....are you? Myself.....I don't think they play any part of what is important.
 
apdst said:
Were you chauffeured around by the 129th Assault Helicopter Company?
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I doubt it, I was up in I Corps. Wasn't the 129th operating in ll Corps ?

But the Army crew chief I was refering to was in ll Corps.
 
You may not be able to answer this live.
Why didn't we do an end-run maneuver to Haiphong, like Inchon, let alone bomb it?
Is it as simple as the Soviets and Chinese were on the ground there?
Weren't they flying missions out of there? I'm still learning as much as I can with my Military Cannel.
Dad was very bitter about you guys having your hands tied.
We both loved "Scoop" Jackson but Dad really turned against his fellow Mainer, Sen. Muskie.
MMC said:
That's great and I am glad to know your Father served.....that you had a friend that was there and made it home. Now you know another. Sua Sponte!

I am sure both would have pointed out the truth to you about Giap. Despite what Johnny Quest McCain has to say.
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MMC said:
Well you're not to concerned about those high brow judgments now.....are you? Myself.....I don't think they play any part of what is important.
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I just don't like liberal revisionism or the left ####### with our military culture, customs, traditions or telling soldiers, Marines, sailors and airmen what words they can use.
 
NIMBY said:
You may not be able to answer this live.
Why didn't we do an end-run maneuver to Haiphong, like Inchon, let alone bomb it?
Is it as simple as the Soviets and Chinese were on the ground there?
Weren't they flying missions out of there? I'm still learning as much as I can with my Military Cannel.
Dad was very bitter about you guys having your hands tied.
We both loved "Scoop" Jackson but Dad really turned against his fellow Mainer, Sen. Muskie.
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You wouldn't like my answer as to why we didn't do an end run. It would have to do with who was running the Big Show.

VietnameseProvincesMap.png


Course you would have to show me how such a strategy would work like that with this setting.
 
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My wife's Mother was secretary for the Tank Destroyer Bn. reunion beginning in the early 50's.
My Father-in-Law was salt of the Earth, an incredible testimony to his generation.
Those guys were awesome.
I started going to the reunions with my wife soon after we started dating.
The one I remember the best was "Why not Minot".
I just Googled the actual unit # for my wife for tomorrow.
APACHERAT said:
I doubt it, I was up in I Corps. Wasn't the 129th operating in ll Corps ?

But the Army crew chief I was refering to was in ll Corps.
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I've got one but it's late.
Go Bears!!!!!
MMC said:
You wouldn't like my answer as to why we didn't do an end run. It would have to do with who was running the Big Show.

VietnameseProvincesMap.png


Course you would have to show me how such a strategy would work like that with this setting.
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APACHERAT said:
Vietnam's General Vo Nguyen Giap dies

How many liberals and anti war activist will be mourning the death of Gen. Giap ?



>" Vo Nguyen Giap, the Vietnamese general who masterminded victories against France and the US, has died aged 102.

His defeat of French forces at Dien Bien Phu in 1954 effectively ended French colonial rule in the region.

He was North Vietnam's defence minister at the time of the Tet Offensive against American forces in 1968, often cited as a key campaign that led to the Americans' withdrawal.

Gen Giap also published a number of works on military strategy.

He was born into a peasant family in the central Quang Binh province of what was then French Indochina.'<

Continue -> BBC News - Vietnam's General Vo Nguyen Giap dies
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No but I am still mourning 58,000 Americans who died in a pointless war for a non-existent threat. Vietnam was a war between the super powers played out in SE Asia so the Generals both could stay safe at home. The people of Vietnam and our own young men were the pawns in murderous chess game that we played until we could stomach it no more.
On the bright side I am amazed a the resilience of the Vietnamese people and there willingness to forgive and forget the horrible injustice we and the USSR inflicted on their people. If only the people of the Mideast could bury the hatchet so easily.
 
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Carjosse said:
I don't think being the defence minster during the Tet Offensive is something to be proud about, it was a giant failure for the North Vietnamese. It should have rallied support in America like it did in South Vietnam.
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It won them the war.. so hardly a giant failure.
 
APACHERAT said:
That's the question I'm asking, how do liberals feel about the death of Gen. Giap ?
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This liberal doesn't care.

APACHERAT said:
John Kerry is a liberal, can you deny that John Kerry was a patriotic hero of Communist Vietnam ?

Today Vietnam looks at Kerry as being a traitor to his own country even though Kerry was an ally of North Vietnam during the 70's.
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Not going there. If protest equals treason there's no direction left to turn.
 
APACHERAT said:
I should have put in parenthesis ( In historical Marine Corps context.) The word "gook" is a U.S. Marine slang word, believed coined during the Barbary Pirate wars and used off and on for almost two hundred years in reference to any person, place or thing that is strange or not American. During the 1970's a white beard scratching liberal who never served in the Corps would use revisionism and create a PC definition for the word and label it as a derogatory term. The libs did the same thing with the definition of what an assault rifle is.
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Incorrect as always. Used by US Soldiers in Korea after they didn't understand a word the Koreans used for American- they thought the Koreans were saying 'me-gook'. Hangook is the term for the Korean country in their language as well.

Used in the Philippines as well. Always stood as a racial term for asians, not Berbers... :roll: The Marines stationed at manila used the word to refer to prostitutes. As far as i can tell it never was a 'neutral' word. Not used outside of the Pacific region.

If you ever set foot in SE Asia with US personnel you should know the term, 'Luke the Gook' when referring to the VC. 'Gook' was not a complement- Sir Charles was.

You are good at revisionist history.
 
notquiteright said:
Incorrect as always. Used by US Soldiers in Korea after they didn't understand a word the Koreans used for American- they thought the Koreans were saying 'me-gook'. Hangook is the term for the Korean country in their language as well.

Used in the Philippines as well. Always stood as a racial term for asians, not Berbers... :roll: The Marines stationed at manila used the word to refer to prostitutes. As far as i can tell it never was a 'neutral' word. Not used outside of the Pacific region.

If you ever set foot in SE Asia with US personnel you should know the term, 'Luke the Gook' when referring to the VC. 'Gook' was not a complement- Sir Charles was.

You are good at revisionist history.
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Yeahbut APACHERAT surfs. Sir Charles don't, according to Robert Duvall.
 
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