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Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

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Isn't circumcision a common practice here in America, performed without the child's consent.
 
Montecresto said:
Isn't circumcision a common practice here in America, performed without the child's consent.
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Sadly, yes.

My viewpoint is, all benefits can be gotten when the child is old enough to both decide for themselves and they're sexually active.
 
X Factor said:
something I don't remember as a baby
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A commonly used justification - "I don't remember getting the chop"

That makes it alright?

So if you cut a part off someone, but drug them first so they won't remember, does that make it all right?
 
joG said:
I looked at a lot of the literature and studies on this matter. There does not seem to be much of a difference medically, though the net effect is the expectancy of a slightly healthier and longer life. Almost every cost benefit analysis shows a positive return.
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Doctors Opposing Circumcision
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Circumcision is also a health plus
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What do you mean?

Cancer? There's much less penile cancer in Denmark than the US and they don't circumcise there.

Cleanliness? What other part of the body do you cut off to keep it clean?

Nobody remembers being circumcised as a baby so what is the problem?
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So if you cut a part off someone, but drug them first so they won't remember, does that make it all right?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
I'm circumsized like most Americans and it doesn't bother me one bit, but let's try to look at this from an objective point of view. Should we let a religion cut off pieces of a baby for no other reason but to appease their god?

What if I invented a religion, Alpacaism, where you have to tattoo an alpaca on newborns' backs, or cut off the excess skin hanging on their ears? Should that be allowed?

Point is, permanent mutilation should always be the choice of the person being mutilated. If somebody wants to do stuff like that when they turn 18, that's their business. Forcing it on someone who can't defend themselves is rather barbaric and has no place in a free society.
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So shall we continue to allow the brutal practice of twisting kids teeth over a period of years and maybe even extracting them (I had four permanent teeth pulled by my quack orthodontist) in the name of asthetics? I'm curious what other things you don't think parents should get to decide for children your "free society". What if they teach *gasp* religion? Probably better to remove kids from their parents and let folks like you raise them correctly, amiright?
 
davidtaylorjr said:
A decreased risk of urinary tract infections.
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A study from Israel suggests circumcision may cause urinary problems:

Is ritual circumcision a risk factor for neonatal urinary tract infections? -- Prais et al. -- Archives of Disease in Childhood

A reduced risk of sexually transmitted diseases in men.
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If the woman's infected it doesn't reduce the risk.

Or do you mean gay men? In which case it offers little to no protection. Cut men also get AIDS.

Protection against penile cancer
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There's much less penile cancer in Denmark than the US and they don't circumcise there.

and a reduced risk of cervical cancer in female sex partners.
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What about other ways of preventing cervical cancer, such as regular smears and stopping smoking?

Prevention of balanitis (inflammation of the glans) and balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans and foreskin).
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Which is not experienced by the vast majority of intact men.

Prevention of phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) and paraphimosis (the inability to return the foreskin to its original location).
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A rare condition.

Circumcision also makes it easier to keep the end of the penis clean.
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What other part of the body do you cut off to keep it clean?
 
Beyond actual foreskin constriction, there is no major scientific benefit to making circumcision health policy.

Of course Israel will endorse it -- they're a state run by Jews, and Jews are not exactly unbiased when it comes to circumcision. This raises the point that circumcision is based in religious ideology, not sound science, and thus Israel has no business telling Europe what to do.

The benefits to circumcised men in the developed world where personal hygiene standards are so high is minuscule, and it's unethical to do this to a person without their consent.

We don't do clitoral hood removal in women, which is their equivalent of circumcision. Why should males be expected to suffer in this way just because some archaic tradition and modern fetish for cut cocks says they should?

X Factor said:
So shall we continue to allow the brutal practice of twisting kids teeth over a period of years and maybe even extracting them (I had four permanent teeth pulled by my quack orthodontist) in the name of asthetics? I'm curious what other things you don't think parents should get to decide for children your "free society". What if they teach *gasp* religion? Probably better to remove kids from their parents and let folks like you raise them correctly, amiright?
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Sorry to hear about your quack orthodontist, but every profession has quacks. Orthodontics has real utility though beyond aesthetics, and even if it's just done for looks, so what? Everyone knows how shallow our society is, and how a nice smile gains you privilege. Correcting a child's teeth is not leaving them with anything permanently lost like circumcision does, and in many cases is improving their bite structure. I would rather have the wrong tooth accidentally pulled than have my genitals mutilated any day.

We can play the comparison game all day though. If you can't prove the utility of circumcision on its own merits then it's not a procedure worth endorsing as public health policy. If parents want it done they can justify their decision to doctors and then pay for it themselves.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
And how is it barbaric?
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First they pump his stomach so that he won't vomit over his own wound, then they may or may not give him two injections in the base of his penis, then in order to see his glans to make sure not to cut it off, they cut a slit down his foreskin and tear it away from the glans, to which it is attached, leaving it bloody and raw...

WARNING: Graphic content:

circumcision - explicit page warning
 
shanners said:
First they pump his stomach so that he won't vomit over his own wound, then they may or may not give him two injections in the base of his penis, then in order to see his glans to make sure not to cut it off, they cut a slit down his foreskin and tear it away from the glans, to which it is attached, leaving it bloody and raw...

WARNING: Graphic content:

circumcision - explicit page warning
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Oh the drama. When my friend had it done on her son, she told me the doctor numbed him first and that he didn't even cry.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Not sure how one would know if there is less sensitivity, how do you even gauge that? lol
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Many men who became circumcised as adults report that sex is less pleasurable than before.
 
X Factor said:
Oh the drama. When my friend had it done on her son, she told me the doctor numbed him first and that he didn't even cry.
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Right, "It's just a snip."

Yeah, like having all your toenails or teeth pulled is "just a yank".
 
Northern Light said:
Beyond actual foreskin constriction, there is no major scientific benefit to making circumcision health policy.

Of course Israel will endorse it -- they're a state run by Jews, and Jews are not exactly unbiased when it comes to circumcision. This raises the point that circumcision is based in religious ideology, not sound science, and thus Israel has no business telling Europe what to do.
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Well that's a two way street. Not everyone who would like to see some major component of the Jewish religion outlawed have any interest at all in the babies.

The benefits to circumcised men in the developed world where personal hygiene standards are so high is minuscule, and it's unethical to do this to a person without their consent.

We don't do clitoral hood removal in women, which is their equivalent of circumcision. Why should males be expected to suffer in this way just because some archaic tradition and modern fetish for cut cocks says they should?

Sorry to hear about your quack orthodontist, but every profession has quacks. Orthodontics has real utility though beyond aesthetics, and even if it's just done for looks, so what? Everyone knows how shallow our society is, and how a nice smile gains you privilege. Correcting a child's teeth is not leaving them with anything permanently lost like circumcision does, and in many cases is improving their bite structure. I would rather have the wrong tooth accidentally pulled than have my genitals mutilated any day.

We can play the comparison game all day though. If you can't prove the utility of circumcision on its own merits then it's not a procedure worth endorsing as public health policy. If parents want it done they can justify their decision to doctors and then pay for it themselves.
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Ok, so you're perfectly fine with what amounts to years of pain for the sake of looks, but a quick procedure after birth that has significant religious meaning is horribly wrong? Who cares what you'd prefer? Is that the standard? Why is your judgment so much more worthy?
 
shanners said:
Right, "It's just a snip."

Yeah, like having all your toenails or teeth pulled is "just a yank".
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Retarded comparisons. Besides, I'm fully aware of what motivates you in particular.
 
Rainman05 said:
If you make a religion that demands that you kill someone every solstice, you will go to prison for murder. Now I'm not comparing circumcision with murder,
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That was sneaky. I think you were comparing circumcision with murder. :monkey
 
joG said:
To me it seemed odd to worry about snipping a piece of skin of of a body that only 30 weeks earlier any uneducated girl could have had vacuumed away at will.
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There is a bunch of subtle sneaky passive-aggressive suckers in this thread and I'm only on the 4th post. It's kind of fun. :2dancing: I really like it here. I think I will continue to read the rest of the comments. This is probably going to prove to be very entertaining.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
I'm circumsized like most Americans and it doesn't bother me one bit
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It doesn't bother you that you were mutilated without your consent?

Point is, permanent mutilation should always be the choice of the person being mutilated. If somebody wants to do stuff like that when they turn 18, that's their business. Forcing it on someone who can't defend themselves is rather barbaric and has no place in a free society.
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Perhaps the best way to stop this barbaric practice is by instigating legal action. When doctors understand they can be sued for it then and only then will it stop.
 
Dezaad said:
Any surgical procedure could be characterized as barbaric.
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Very true. I was thinking that one day when I was at the dentist. I was thinking it must be impossible for dentist to go into third world countries to offer dental care. The dentist would get socked in the nose or possibly shot. It tickles me that civilized people are the only ones that can benefit from modern dentistry. Jungle men wouldn't put up with being subjected to such barbaric torture. Your observation is rather funny.
 
Northern Light said:
Europe is not a very pro-circ zone so Israel just has to get over it. And don't expect many Americans to be sympathetic to Europe. Their warped cultural fetish for cut cocks and shaming of male sexuality runs so deep that they think a natural penis looks disgusting.
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Have you ever seen an uncircumsized penis in a porn?
 
X Factor said:
Well that's a two way street. Not everyone who would like to see some major component of the Jewish religion outlawed have any interest at all in the babies.
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I believe it was "restricted", not "outlawed".

X Factor said:
Ok, so you're perfectly fine with what amounts to years of pain for the sake of looks, but a quick procedure after birth that has significant religious meaning is horribly wrong? Who cares what you'd prefer? Is that the standard? Why is your judgment so much more worthy?
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I have a better question. Why is the brit milah okay just because it's an "ancient religious tradition"? Imagine a world where circumcision was rarely performed, and only when medically necessary. Now imagine, in the year 2014, a religious group comes along and with the advent of the brit milah, rabbi sucking blood from the genitals and the whole shabang, claiming it was part of their covenant with God. Do you really think most countries would say, "Yep, that makes sense!", and allow it?

How much do we allow in the name of religion? I realize that the U.S. has a fetish for cut cocks which prevents most of its people from seeing this issue clearly, but if you can, try to put it aside. Why does this religious practice get the ok, but if a non-Jew did something like this to a baby they would probably end up in jail for sex crimes and assault?

Why is it ok for one group to do this to a baby's genitals, but not another? Why, in general, do parents get to opt for this elective, unnecessary procedure when the child is at an age where they can't vocalize dissent?
 
Northern Light said:
Beyond actual foreskin constriction, there is no major scientific benefit to making circumcision health policy.

Of course Israel will endorse it -- they're a state run by Jews, and Jews are not exactly unbiased when it comes to circumcision. This raises the point that circumcision is based in religious ideology, not sound science, and thus Israel has no business telling Europe what to.
The benefits to circumcised men in the developed world where personal hygiene standards are so high is minuscule, and it's unethical to do this to a person without their consent.

We don't do clitoral hood removal in women, which is their equivalent of circumcision. Why should males be expected to suffer in this way just because some archaic tradition and modern fetish for cut cocks says they should?



Sorry to hear about your quack orthodontist, but every profession has quacks. Orthodontics has real utility though beyond aesthetics, and even if it's just done for looks, so what? Everyone knows how shallow our society is, and how a nice smile gains you privilege. Correcting a child's teeth is not leaving them with anything permanently lost like circumcision does, and in many cases is improving their bite structure. I would rather have the wrong tooth accidentally pulled than have my genitals mutilated any day.

We can play the comparison game all day though. If you can't prove the utility of circumcision on its own merits then it's not a procedure worth endorsing as public health policy. If parents want it done they can justify their decision to doctors and then pay for it themselves.
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Another one here who is for government poking their noses in people's business... Who are they to tell parents what they can or cannot do? IMO a circumcised penis is a clean penis and less likely to get or give infection.....
 
Juanita said:
Another one here who is for government poking their noses in people's business... Who are they to tell parents what they can or cannot do? IMO a circumcised penis is a clean penis and less likely to get or give infection.....
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A washed penis is a clean penis and less likely to give an infection.

What does this have to do with Israel?

I'm not a statist. This is about medical ethics.
 
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