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CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame [W:176:468]

WAKE UP!

If you don't want to buy the product, then you don't have to, just pay the fine! You're entire argument rests on the assumption that the private sector can provide an essential service--HEALTHCARE IS ESSENTIAL; OTHERWISE, DO YOU SUGGEST THAT WE LET PEOPLE DIE IN THE STREETS?--at an affordable cost; however, the evidence shows that the private sector was unable to do this, and that is why we NEED the government to step in! You have to understand that the interests of the private sector contradict the interests of the citizen, so if you want to blame someone, then blame your own selfish, greedy, egotistic world view which forces government to step in, so that you can then complain about it, while providing no better alternative! So how are you going to solve the healthcare problem again? Oh, wait, you can't answer that question because your only answer is the private sector, which has already proven ineffective.

its clear you have no understanding of the foundering principles, ..what authority does government have to force me to buy a private sector product.

according to that logic, government can force me to buy a car, every 2,4, or 6 years, and if I don't pay a tax.
 
The tenth ammendment does not say anything about the federal government making a case for aquiring state powers at a later time. The constution does not say that the federal government is limited only to the powers expressly or explicitly delagated to it. That is why there are such things as implied powers and concurant powers.

The only way they have constitutionally of "aquiring state powers at a later time" is through constitutional amendment (or fiat by the SCOTUS). Implied and concurrent powers are based strictly upon enumerated powers.
 
The context was that the teabags want to defund the ACA, to threaten default over the ACA. If the comment that "we are a country of equal opportunity", how is that in opposition to the ACA?

Then you concede to my point.


Primarily based on income.

So?

If a person signs up on the exchanges, when is payment due? At the time they sign up? I'm keeping my BC/BS, so I'm asking because I don't know about what other people are running into. And at what point do the subsidies kick in, and who determines that--the IRS? Sorry to ask so many questions, but you seem to be knowledgable, so you're it!
 
The tenth ammendment does not say anything about the federal government making a case for aquiring state powers at a later time. The constution does not say that the federal government is limited only to the powers expressly or explicitly delagated to it. That is why there are such things as implied powers and concurant powers.

the constitution list the powers of congress, and their are 18 of them.

the founders are clear government is limited.



“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

“[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any.” – James Madison, Federalist 14

“The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce.” – James Madison, Federalist 45

“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” – James Madison, 1792

“The Constitution allows only the means which are ‘necessary,’ not those which are merely ‘convenient,’ for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed” – Thomas Jefferson, 1791

“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798

There you have it. James Madison, the Constitution’s author and Thomas Jefferson the author of the Declaration of Independence, specifically say that Congressional powers are to be limited and defined – unlike most modern interpretations!

Admittedly, Jefferson and Madison were not our only Founders. These two were strict constitutionalists who feared the potential strength of any government. So let’s look at another Founder’s opinion—Alexander Hamilton who historically saw it in a somewhat looser vain.

“This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

Hamilton uncategorically states that all congressional powers are enumerated and that the very existence of these enumerations alone makes any belief that Congress has full and general legislative power to act as it desires nonsensical. If such broad congressional power had been the original intent, the constitutionally specified powers would have been worthless. In other words, why even enumerate any powers at all if the General Welfare clause could trump them?

“No legislative act … contrary to the Constitution can be valid. To deny this would be to affirm that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 78

In short, Hamilton tells us that since the powers of Congress are enumerated and limit Congress to those powers, any assumed authority outside those specified that don’t have a direct relation to those explicit powers must be contrary to the Constitution and therefore — unconstitutional.
 
Re: CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame [W:176]

Sorry, I chimed in because you posted a completely false statement. Here are cumulative graphs of private and public sector job growth (through April of this year). At this point their Presidencies, we had lost 1,000,000 private sector jobs under Bush, but gained 2,000,000 under Obama. That's a difference of 3,000,000 private sector jobs.

In contrast, by this point in his presidency Bush had increased the size of the Government workforce by 850,000. Under Obama the government workforce lost 750,000 jobs.

That brings the score to Obama presided over the creation of 3,000,000 more private sector jobs than Bush, while Bush added 1.6 million more government jobs.

Now I'm not going to pretend that job creation under Obama has been good. But Obama has been more successful and achieved more CONSERVATIVE priorities than Bush. Thems are facts.
View attachment 67154746View attachment 67154748
Damn I get tired of this slight of hand.

1) This nations population was different. Raw number counts are meaningless. What is the percentage?

2) What are the part time vs. full time numbers?
 
If a person signs up on the exchanges, when is payment due? At the time they sign up? I'm keeping my BC/BS, so I'm asking because I don't know about what other people are running into. And at what point do the subsidies kick in, and who determines that--the IRS? Sorry to ask so many questions, but you seem to be knowledgable, so you're it!
You are going into details and tangents from what I was discussing.
 
Actually, there are only two entities refusing to come to the table, and one is not the House...

Aha! That must mean there are more things yet to be shut down! :mrgreen:
 
Re: CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame [W:176]

The President asked for a $1,200 Billion clean CR.
The Repub House offered a $988 Billion CR loaded up with policy riders, their form of filibuster.
The Senate Dems then agreed with the Hiuse Repub #, only with it clean.
Guess what? House Repubs then moved the goalposts to $966 Billion.
 
Re: CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame [W:176]

The President asked for a $1,200 Billion clean CR.
The Repub House offered a $988 Billion CR loaded up with policy riders, their form of filibuster.
The Senate Dems then agreed with the Hiuse Repub #, only with it clean.
Guess what? House Repubs then moved the goalposts to $966 Billion.

You appear to be unclear as to what a CR is. It stands for Clean Resolution and no "riders" are possible.
 
its clear you have no understanding of the foundering principles, ..what authority does government have to force me to buy a private sector product.

according to that logic, government can force me to buy a car, every 2,4, or 6 years, and if I don't pay a tax.

Not only does government have the authority to provide essential services, like protecting the American people from foreign invasions, they have a responsibility to do it--AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT, BARACK OBAMA IS NOT GOING TO NEGOTIATE WITH YOU, AND THE LONGER YOU KEEP THE GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN, THE HARDER HIT YOU WILL TAKE AT THE POLLS, SO GO AHEAD AND KEEP ARGUING ABOUT IT, BUT WE--THOSE WHO LIVE ON PLANET EARTH, US HUMANS--ARE GOING TO MOVE FORWARD, SO GO AHEAD AND GET LEFT BEHIND! You see, the best thing you can do right now is admit that you are wrong and move on! .

P.S. Possession of an automobile is not an essential service; we have a great public transportation infrastructure that the right could focus on improving, instead of fighting this losing battle that goes nowhere!
 
Not only does government have the authority to provide essential services, like protecting the American people from foreign invasions, they have a responsibility to do it--AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT, BARACK OBAMA IS NOT GOING TO NEGOTIATE WITH YOU, AND THE LONGER YOU KEEP THE GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN, THE HARDER HIT YOU WILL TAKE AT THE POLLS, SO GO AHEAD AND KEEP ARGUING ABOUT IT, BUT WE--THOSE WHO LIVE ON PLANET EARTH, US HUMANS--ARE GOING TO MOVE FORWARD, SO GO AHEAD AND GET LEFT BEHIND! You see, the best thing you can do right now is admit that you are wrong and move on! .

P.S. Possession of an automobile is not an essential service; we have a great public transportation infrastructure that the right could focus on improving, instead of fighting this losing battle that goes nowhere!

Wow.

You must be a product of modern indoctrination.
 
Not only does government have the authority to provide essential services, like protecting the American people from foreign invasions, they have a responsibility to do it--AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT, BARACK OBAMA IS NOT GOING TO NEGOTIATE WITH YOU, AND THE LONGER YOU KEEP THE GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN, THE HARDER HIT YOU WILL TAKE AT THE POLLS, SO GO AHEAD AND KEEP ARGUING ABOUT IT, BUT WE--THOSE WHO LIVE ON PLANET EARTH, US HUMANS--ARE GOING TO MOVE FORWARD, SO GO AHEAD AND GET LEFT BEHIND! You see, the best thing you can do right now is admit that you are wrong and move on! .

P.S. Possession of an automobile is not an essential service; we have a great public transportation infrastructure that the right could focus on improving, instead of fighting this losing battle that goes nowhere!

your incorrect, Madison states clearly that the congress has no authority in the daily life's liberty or property of the American people.

The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected.

The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.

The operations of the federal government will be most extensive and important in times of war and danger; those of the State governments, in times of peace and security. As the former periods will probably bear a small proportion to the latter, the State governments will here enjoy another advantage over the federal government. The more adequate, indeed, the federal powers may be rendered to the national defense, the less frequent will be those scenes of danger which might favor their ascendancy over the governments of the particular States.
 
your incorrect, Madison states clearly that the congress has no authority in the daily life's liberty or property of the American people.

The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected.

The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.

The operations of the federal government will be most extensive and important in times of war and danger; those of the State governments, in times of peace and security. As the former periods will probably bear a small proportion to the latter, the State governments will here enjoy another advantage over the federal government. The more adequate, indeed, the federal powers may be rendered to the national defense, the less frequent will be those scenes of danger which might favor their ascendancy over the governments of the particular States.

Who cares what Madison said... Barack Obama SAYS it's time to move forward!
 
Not only does government have the authority to provide essential services, like protecting the American people from foreign invasions, they have a responsibility to do it--AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT, BARACK OBAMA IS NOT GOING TO NEGOTIATE WITH YOU, AND THE LONGER YOU KEEP THE GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN, THE HARDER HIT YOU WILL TAKE AT THE POLLS, SO GO AHEAD AND KEEP ARGUING ABOUT IT, BUT WE--THOSE WHO LIVE ON PLANET EARTH, US HUMANS--ARE GOING TO MOVE FORWARD, SO GO AHEAD AND GET LEFT BEHIND! You see, the best thing you can do right now is admit that you are wrong and move on! .

P.S. Possession of an automobile is not an essential service; we have a great public transportation infrastructure that the right could focus on improving, instead of fighting this losing battle that goes nowhere!

Need about a few million LOLs for that shouted rant. Sounds like someone stole your favorite soapbox corner so you brought it here. :mrgreen:

No the government, at least not the federal government, does not have that grant. Obama won't negotiate squat, you are right, the dem leadership will, he'll just be the guy who sets the meeting. He's not proven to be very good at negotiating.

And stop trying to speak for us humans, we find that laughable.
 
Who cares what Madison said... Barack Obama SAYS it's time to move forward!

I see you've found your messiah. You do realise at some point soon he's going to be an ex-president (with a terrible legacy), but James Madison will always be the luminary who wrote the US Constitution that made this country the envy of the world.
 
I see you've found your messiah. You do realise at some point soon he's going to be an ex-president (with a terrible legacy), but James Madison will always be the luminary who wrote the US Constitution that made this country the envy of the world.

But James Madison will also be remembered for presiding over the disastrous war of 1812 and allowing the capital building be burned to the ground.
 
Are you simply being trollish?

Okay, say what you will, but the point is that Obama stands for principle while the tea party, republicans and libertarians stand against principle! The right are the real looters that Ayn Rand was talking about... Look, I already know every point on the right--I know the right better than the best of them--and I am telling you that by taking this position, the right is contradicting its philosophical/political base. Not only that, I am telling you that the right is solely responsible for the government shutdown and that they will take serious hits on elections for the next couple years due to this.

Don't believe me? I can tell you what the best move would be for the right! They need to 1) drop this affordable care act repeal business ASAP, and 2) focus on improving our transportation infrastructure, which helps not only citizens but the private sector.

Game over. Checkmate.

P.S. I don't even agree with his interpretation of Madison, he is talking about Madison all wrong!
 
Okay, say what you will, but the point is that Obama stands for principle while the tea party, republicans and libertarians stand against principle! The right are the real looters that Ayn Rand was talking about... Look, I already know every point on the right--I know the right better than the best of them--and I am telling you that by taking this position, the right is contradicting its philosophical/political base. Not only that, I am telling you that the right is solely responsible for the government shutdown and that they will take serious hits on elections for the next couple years due to this.

Don't believe me? I can tell you what the best move would be for the right! They need to 1) drop this affordable care act repeal business ASAP, and 2) focus on improving our transportation infrastructure, which helps not only citizens but the private sector.

Game over. Checkmate.

P.S. I don't even agree with his interpretation of Madison, he is talking about Madison all wrong!

Listen, each individual leads their life according to their own principles. To say that only one set of principles is the "right way", doesn't show much consideration for your fellow man. Now, for your world to exist, we would need a complete dictatorship...
 
But James Madison will also be remembered for presiding over the disastrous war of 1812 and allowing the capital building be burned to the ground.

Not really. He's been dead and remembered now for centuries, what you detail isn't what folks remember when his name comes up. Author of the Constitution and founder are pretty big deals.
 
Listen, each individual leads their life according to their own principles. To say that only one set of principles is the "right way", doesn't show much consideration for your fellow man. Now, for your world to exist, we would need a complete dictatorship...

You can not argue with the facts of this matter: Shutting down the government and risking a default--AND I QUOTE, FROM TODAY'S WASHINGTON POST: "BOEHNER IS DEFIANT AMID RISK OF DEFAULT"--is much worse than allowing the Affordable Care Act to go through as planned! I told you the right is contradicting its base here: I thought they cared about our debt... but here they are risking a default for the sake of a radical faction called the Tea Party! Here they are making impossible demands so that they can say that democrats won't negotiate! And the proof that they are responsible for this is how they voted! Regardless of what they tell you, or how they spin it, or what the Washington Post says, the fact still remains that Shutting down the government and risking a default is WORSE than obamacare, like by far...
 
You can not argue with the facts of this matter: Shutting down the government and risking a default--AND I QUOTE, FROM TODAY'S WASHINGTON POST: "BOEHNER IS DEFIANT AMID RISK OF DEFAULT"--is much worse than allowing the Affordable Care Act to go through as planned! I told you the right is contradicting its base here: I thought they cared about our debt... but here they are risking a default for the sake of a radical faction called the Tea Party! Here they are making impossible demands so that they can say that democrats won't negotiate! And the proof that they are responsible for this is how they voted! Regardless of what they tell you, or how they spin it, or what the Washington Post says, the fact still remains that Shutting down the government and risking a default is WORSE than obamacare, like by far...

There can be no default unless the President chooses to do so. The Treasury takes in approximately $225B/month and service on the debt is approximately 1/10 of that amount. Will some other programs not receive payments promptly, absolutely, but to imply that the US will default on its debt is an outright lie...
 
Aha! That must mean there are more things yet to be shut down! :mrgreen:

Evening Pol, hope all is well with you. On the shutdown, me being a numbers guy, CNN just released their new poll which shows 63% of Americans angry at Republicans, 57% angry at Democrats and 53% angry at President Obama. But more important to me, this poll also included independent voter figures which so far has more or less been an educated guess. Among independents and independents only, 60% are angry at congressional Republicans, 59% angry at congressional Democrats and 58% angry at President Obama.

As I have been saying all along, both parties are taking the hit and independent voters are blaming both sides equally. I think the rise where it now looks relative even is the president and the senate majority leaders continuing to appear on TV saying they will not negotiate. Who started this fight or who is right or wrong is no longer important to indies, it is appearances and perspectives they are now digesting and having one side saying they refuse to negotiate has brought the Democrats up to almost even in the polls for blame. Never mind it was the rider to defund the ACA that started all of this. That has IMO ceased to be important to them.

In another poll released this morning it showed 33% blaming the Democrats and the President, 36% blaming the Republicans and 25% blaming both parties. What is interesting from the 3 Oct poll is the Republicans dropped from 44% to 36% as to whom Americans are blaming, the Democrats dropped from 35% to 33%, but those who blamed both parties rose from 17% to 25%.

The poll just released by CNN confirms that most Americans are moving to blame both parties. Compare these results with the 1996 shutdown where 51% of Americans blamed the Republicans and only 28% blamed Clinton and the Democrats, I would say as far as the public's perception goes, it is a lose, lose situation for both parties at the moment.
 
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