davidtaylorjr
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CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame [W:176:468]
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Samhain
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
If the bill is so good, why are there thousands upon thousands of waivers ignoring its requirements? Why did businesses get a year reprieve from their requirements, but individuals did not?
In the end, precedence has been set, and whomever is in the Oval Office can by decree waive implementation.
If the bill is so good, why are there thousands upon thousands of waivers ignoring its requirements? Why did businesses get a year reprieve from their requirements, but individuals did not?
In the end, precedence has been set, and whomever is in the Oval Office can by decree waive implementation.
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
Part of the problem for Republicans is something I mentioned here during this Lost Weekend on DP.
The Democrats have one main speaker and he is Barack Obama and he will command coverage any time he wants, it will be favorable coverage, and he's taken advantage of it.
The Republicans don't have that advantage and that was me obvious just yesterday.
They trotted out a passel of Congresspeople yesterday to briefly explain what they did and to blame Harry Reid for a possible shutdown.
They even put Congresswomen front & center.
All well and good.
But ... they did it AFTER the Sunday morning news shows.
WTF !!!!!!!
They need to get it together or they'll be rolled again regardless of the majority sympathetic to their side.
Part of the problem for Republicans is something I mentioned here during this Lost Weekend on DP.
The Democrats have one main speaker and he is Barack Obama and he will command coverage any time he wants, it will be favorable coverage, and he's taken advantage of it.
The Republicans don't have that advantage and that was me obvious just yesterday.
They trotted out a passel of Congresspeople yesterday to briefly explain what they did and to blame Harry Reid for a possible shutdown.
They even put Congresswomen front & center.
All well and good.
But ... they did it AFTER the Sunday morning news shows.
WTF !!!!!!!
They need to get it together or they'll be rolled again regardless of the majority sympathetic to their side.
ocean515
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
I would suggest the Democrats have done nothing to improve the unilateral plan they are forcing citizens to accept because their end game to the whole process is single payer.
That's the real question. It's there plan, and they've done nothing to address the glaring problems.
Why not? Why haven't they offered anything?
I would suggest the Democrats have done nothing to improve the unilateral plan they are forcing citizens to accept because their end game to the whole process is single payer.
That's the real question. It's there plan, and they've done nothing to address the glaring problems.
Why not? Why haven't they offered anything?
Smeagol
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
People like THEIR congressman, they just want everybody else's to be voted out.
Understanding the meaning of non-essential. Would there be an emergency crisis if such and such agency closed down for a few days? The passport office is a good example. But you can't let them stay closed forever unless you want open borders. Should West Point and Annapolis or at least their grounds keeping staff be sent home forever? Should we permanently close down the Washington Monument, The Lincoln Memorial and cancel all future grounds-keeping of Arlington National Cemetery?
People like THEIR congressman, they just want everybody else's to be voted out.
Understanding the meaning of non-essential. Would there be an emergency crisis if such and such agency closed down for a few days? The passport office is a good example. But you can't let them stay closed forever unless you want open borders. Should West Point and Annapolis or at least their grounds keeping staff be sent home forever? Should we permanently close down the Washington Monument, The Lincoln Memorial and cancel all future grounds-keeping of Arlington National Cemetery?
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
Delaying the ACA implementation seems like the rational decision here considering that it doesn't appear even 100% ready to implement at the moment. I don't know how the administration can argue that a delay of the individual mandate is unreasonable after they already bent the law by delaying the business mandate.
Delaying the ACA implementation seems like the rational decision here considering that it doesn't appear even 100% ready to implement at the moment. I don't know how the administration can argue that a delay of the individual mandate is unreasonable after they already bent the law by delaying the business mandate.
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Re: CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame
Actually, given how poorly and fragmented the messaging has been from Republicans...the part I did not see coming was that Republican Responsability alone has gone down by 5 points over the past month and blame for Obama alone has gone up by 3 points.
That surprises me, as I feel like the Republicans haven't done a great job of getting their end of the messaging across.
Frankly, I've been and continue to be on the "All of the above" category, adding the Senate into hte mix as well.
Actually, given how poorly and fragmented the messaging has been from Republicans...the part I did not see coming was that Republican Responsability alone has gone down by 5 points over the past month and blame for Obama alone has gone up by 3 points.
That surprises me, as I feel like the Republicans haven't done a great job of getting their end of the messaging across.
Frankly, I've been and continue to be on the "All of the above" category, adding the Senate into hte mix as well.
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
Obama has delayed huge portions of the bill already, why not the rest?
Obama has delayed huge portions of the bill already, why not the rest?
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
2 things need to be said regarding the CBO's projected deficit reduction...
1) from the Hill article, what they said was that the CBO basis for their projection was " ... that eliminating the law's expensive coverage provisions would be more than offset by repealing its taxes, fees and Medicare cuts, resulting in a deficit increase."
2) for the LIV, that means any decrease in deficit would be attributable to the huge increase in a bunch of taxes, new taxes, new fees, etc. ... not reduction of expenses.
2 things need to be said regarding the CBO's projected deficit reduction...
1) from the Hill article, what they said was that the CBO basis for their projection was " ... that eliminating the law's expensive coverage provisions would be more than offset by repealing its taxes, fees and Medicare cuts, resulting in a deficit increase."
2) for the LIV, that means any decrease in deficit would be attributable to the huge increase in a bunch of taxes, new taxes, new fees, etc. ... not reduction of expenses.
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
I think the "compromise" he's speaking of is actually the 1 year delay of certian provisions of the ACA (notably, a number of the provisions that the Obama Administration was attempting to give exemptions to various labor unions for).
So essentially he's suggesting the starting position of the Senate was Defund ACA + fund government. The senate said unequivocably "no". So they've "Compromised" to "Delay ACA + fund Government". And the senate seemingly is saying unequivocably "no" again.
Whether or not you see it as a compromise is up for debate, but I imagine he's meaning the latter instance as a compromise more so than the first.
And if I'm right in terms of that being the "compromise" he spoke of, then your analogy falls through a bit imho since asking the Dem's to delay implimentation across the board, when they were seeking to delay that implimentation to CERTAIN parties, is far more reasonable than 3/4ths of the military being cut
I think the "compromise" he's speaking of is actually the 1 year delay of certian provisions of the ACA (notably, a number of the provisions that the Obama Administration was attempting to give exemptions to various labor unions for).
So essentially he's suggesting the starting position of the Senate was Defund ACA + fund government. The senate said unequivocably "no". So they've "Compromised" to "Delay ACA + fund Government". And the senate seemingly is saying unequivocably "no" again.
Whether or not you see it as a compromise is up for debate, but I imagine he's meaning the latter instance as a compromise more so than the first.
And if I'm right in terms of that being the "compromise" he spoke of, then your analogy falls through a bit imho since asking the Dem's to delay implimentation across the board, when they were seeking to delay that implimentation to CERTAIN parties, is far more reasonable than 3/4ths of the military being cut
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
Like x1,000,000
I think the "compromise" he's speaking of is actually the 1 year delay of certian provisions of the ACA (notably, a number of the provisions that the Obama Administration was attempting to give exemptions to various labor unions for).
So essentially he's suggesting the starting position of the Senate was Defund ACA + fund government. The senate said unequivocably "no". So they've "Compromised" to "Delay ACA + fund Government". And the senate seemingly is saying unequivocably "no" again.
Whether or not you see it as a compromise is up for debate, but I imagine he's meaning the latter instance as a compromise more so than the first.
And if I'm right in terms of that being the "compromise" he spoke of, then your analogy falls through a bit imho since asking the Dem's to delay implimentation across the board, when they were seeking to delay that implimentation to CERTAIN parties, is far more reasonable than 3/4ths of the military being cut
Like x1,000,000
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
That's really not a reasonable analogy in the least, unless you have such little disdain for the workforce of the federal government.
Trying to step back as best I can from my own biases, I'd say a better analogy would be...
One side said "Let us amputate your leg, and we'll give you food and water to live for the next year". The other side said no.
So that first side says "Fine, you already were planning to walk a lot less. Let us break your leg and we'll give you food and water to live for the next year". The other side said "no".
Now, its entirely reasonable to still go "Well that's still a ridiculous offer and of course they should say 'no'". But it's far more in line with reality, both in terms of what's being offered and what's being asked for, then comparing an amputation to a hand shake.
That's really not a reasonable analogy in the least, unless you have such little disdain for the workforce of the federal government.
Trying to step back as best I can from my own biases, I'd say a better analogy would be...
One side said "Let us amputate your leg, and we'll give you food and water to live for the next year". The other side said no.
So that first side says "Fine, you already were planning to walk a lot less. Let us break your leg and we'll give you food and water to live for the next year". The other side said "no".
Now, its entirely reasonable to still go "Well that's still a ridiculous offer and of course they should say 'no'". But it's far more in line with reality, both in terms of what's being offered and what's being asked for, then comparing an amputation to a hand shake.
jonny5
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
We need to get rid of institutional knowledge. If govt is so complex that it requires lifelong appointments and massive bureaucracies to just remember how it even works, then its become to big. Govt power needs to be concentrated from the bottom up.
We need to get rid of institutional knowledge. If govt is so complex that it requires lifelong appointments and massive bureaucracies to just remember how it even works, then its become to big. Govt power needs to be concentrated from the bottom up.
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
Which is the end game of the far right and has been from the start. All you want to do is delay and delay and delay until the day when you can kill it. Period.
So the idea that lets just have this very reasonable one year delay is a bunch of disingenuous BS.
Which is the end game of the far right and has been from the start. All you want to do is delay and delay and delay until the day when you can kill it. Period.
So the idea that lets just have this very reasonable one year delay is a bunch of disingenuous BS.
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
I work in the Michigan legislature. We have term limits restricting Reps to no more than six years and Senators to no more than eight. The sad reality is that it takes a full two year term before most even figure out where things are and how the place runs and how to actually do their job. And those are the smart ones who learn fast. Some never quite get it. In the second term is where people begin to see how legislation is actually passed and how deals are made to get things done. In the third term, they begin to realize that there is much of State Government outside of their particular house that impacts things and they begin to learn how that works also.
Another sad reality is every single person in the legislature knows that they will be long gone and completely unaccountable for most of what they have passed since they will no longer be there when things hit the fan. A good example is two years ago when the legislature drastically reduced almost 2 billion dollars of business taxes and increased personal taxes. The hope was it would stimulate business growth and create jobs and revenues. Two years later it still has not happened and we constantly hear that "thing take time". None of these guys will be here when the accounts come due and the final report card is in to pay the price for a stupid ideological error or to take credit for a great bill - whichever it turns out to be.
What is the "bottom up"? Who is the bottom?
In other words, just when the actually begin to function as a full legislator - in the third term - they are rendered as useless by the term limit law denying the voters who they want to represent them.
I work in the Michigan legislature. We have term limits restricting Reps to no more than six years and Senators to no more than eight. The sad reality is that it takes a full two year term before most even figure out where things are and how the place runs and how to actually do their job. And those are the smart ones who learn fast. Some never quite get it. In the second term is where people begin to see how legislation is actually passed and how deals are made to get things done. In the third term, they begin to realize that there is much of State Government outside of their particular house that impacts things and they begin to learn how that works also.
Another sad reality is every single person in the legislature knows that they will be long gone and completely unaccountable for most of what they have passed since they will no longer be there when things hit the fan. A good example is two years ago when the legislature drastically reduced almost 2 billion dollars of business taxes and increased personal taxes. The hope was it would stimulate business growth and create jobs and revenues. Two years later it still has not happened and we constantly hear that "thing take time". None of these guys will be here when the accounts come due and the final report card is in to pay the price for a stupid ideological error or to take credit for a great bill - whichever it turns out to be.
What is the "bottom up"? Who is the bottom?
In other words, just when the actually begin to function as a full legislator - in the third term - they are rendered as useless by the term limit law denying the voters who they want to represent them.
Morality Games
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
In old fashioned politics that are still practiced in other representative governments (like the United Kingdom) such compromises require building credit with the opposing party.
The Republican Party has run a scorched earth campaign against the political opponents (and especially Obama) for the past five years, so they have no credit to go on.
I'm going to ignore that the starting Republican bid is the entire Romney presidency and that the last bid is postponing the fight until a different deadline.
In old fashioned politics that are still practiced in other representative governments (like the United Kingdom) such compromises require building credit with the opposing party.
The Republican Party has run a scorched earth campaign against the political opponents (and especially Obama) for the past five years, so they have no credit to go on.
I'm going to ignore that the starting Republican bid is the entire Romney presidency and that the last bid is postponing the fight until a different deadline.
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
The American people appear to be in a lose/lose situation.
The American people appear to be in a lose/lose situation.
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
And it works for them.
Facts have not played an important role in recent presidential elections as much as feelings, and those feeling will continue to trump facts.
And it works for them.
Facts have not played an important role in recent presidential elections as much as feelings, and those feeling will continue to trump facts.
clownboy
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
Shut down the government, start with the IRS. Second up - congress. :mrgreen:
Seriously, how can the republicans be blamed when the so-called leaders of the party have been begging to cave to the dems at every opportunity? Obamacare is as good a hill as any for a politician to die upon.
Shut down the government, start with the IRS. Second up - congress. :mrgreen:
Seriously, how can the republicans be blamed when the so-called leaders of the party have been begging to cave to the dems at every opportunity? Obamacare is as good a hill as any for a politician to die upon.
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
The erosion of State rights has been the largest contributing factor to the present dilemma.
The erosion of State rights has been the largest contributing factor to the present dilemma.
letsunite
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
Help me understand this.
What is it that the democrats are asking for, what is the "way" that they are demanding? IMHO, "their" way is simply the law...ACA was passed by congress, and upheld by the supreme court. They got their way. The money has been approved. There were endless negotiations and compromises, don't you remember how much time it took to pass it? That was negotiation and compromise. Do you believe that congress can go back and say "we don't like the law we passed, let's talk about it again...and if you don't revisit it the govt will shut down." We spent many months debating ACA, now they want to defund it in 2 or 3 days?
How is this different than Democrats saying "we weren't able to pass the gun control laws we wanted after Newtown, so we're going to attach them to a spending bill, and if it doesn't pass, the govt will shut down. Republicans must negotiate or the shutdown is their fault."
Is that not a reasonable analogy?
I honestly do not get the rationale for this being anyone's responsibility but the republicans.
Thank you.
Help me understand this.
What is it that the democrats are asking for, what is the "way" that they are demanding? IMHO, "their" way is simply the law...ACA was passed by congress, and upheld by the supreme court. They got their way. The money has been approved. There were endless negotiations and compromises, don't you remember how much time it took to pass it? That was negotiation and compromise. Do you believe that congress can go back and say "we don't like the law we passed, let's talk about it again...and if you don't revisit it the govt will shut down." We spent many months debating ACA, now they want to defund it in 2 or 3 days?
How is this different than Democrats saying "we weren't able to pass the gun control laws we wanted after Newtown, so we're going to attach them to a spending bill, and if it doesn't pass, the govt will shut down. Republicans must negotiate or the shutdown is their fault."
Is that not a reasonable analogy?
I honestly do not get the rationale for this being anyone's responsibility but the republicans.
Thank you.
Morality Games
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
The Republicans don't want to compromise. The Tea Party is trying to get their base fired up for the upcoming elections and the GOP Establishment is dragging its feet behind them to avoid inviting scrutiny into their own lack of conservatism. Either against all logic they receive the entire Romney presidency, or they shut down the government and look like heroes back at home. Either way, the Tea Party's seats are safe.
The Establishment's are not, which is why they begged the Tea Party to postpone this song and dance so the party can take another run at it a month later and perhaps strike a less offensive chord with the independents and the moderates.
The Republicans don't want to compromise. The Tea Party is trying to get their base fired up for the upcoming elections and the GOP Establishment is dragging its feet behind them to avoid inviting scrutiny into their own lack of conservatism. Either against all logic they receive the entire Romney presidency, or they shut down the government and look like heroes back at home. Either way, the Tea Party's seats are safe.
The Establishment's are not, which is why they begged the Tea Party to postpone this song and dance so the party can take another run at it a month later and perhaps strike a less offensive chord with the independents and the moderates.
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greengirl77
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Re: CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame
Here is the biggest problem with the GOP. Sadly some people think they are having trouble getting their message across! Their message is loud and clear. Frankly not to many people want their message. This proves that only a small mainority of the US is buying into it. They have blamed everyone but themselves. The fact is the Republicans hitched their wagons to the Teabaggers and now they look really foolish in doing so.
Here is the biggest problem with the GOP. Sadly some people think they are having trouble getting their message across! Their message is loud and clear. Frankly not to many people want their message. This proves that only a small mainority of the US is buying into it. They have blamed everyone but themselves. The fact is the Republicans hitched their wagons to the Teabaggers and now they look really foolish in doing so.
clownboy
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
Congress has passed all sorts of laws that later it reconsidered. Otherwise slavery would still be legal and women still property of their husbands. The people hate this Obamacare crap, and they're going to hate it even more the longer it's allowed to continue. The ONLY ones who are for this nightmare are the ones who get free stuff, now there's a surprise.
Democrats didn't read this turd before passage, nor did they know what was in it. They wanted to pass a big signature bill for their signature president. The American people be damned.
Congress has passed all sorts of laws that later it reconsidered. Otherwise slavery would still be legal and women still property of their husbands. The people hate this Obamacare crap, and they're going to hate it even more the longer it's allowed to continue. The ONLY ones who are for this nightmare are the ones who get free stuff, now there's a surprise.
Democrats didn't read this turd before passage, nor did they know what was in it. They wanted to pass a big signature bill for their signature president. The American people be damned.
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Re: Most would blame Republicans
This poll confirms the influence of the main stream media on the public. The reality of it is the Republican's have passed legislation to keep the govt open and its the democrats who object. The only reason for the public to blame the Republicans is due to vast left wing misinformation propaganda by the leftist media.
This poll confirms the influence of the main stream media on the public. The reality of it is the Republican's have passed legislation to keep the govt open and its the democrats who object. The only reason for the public to blame the Republicans is due to vast left wing misinformation propaganda by the leftist media.