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Why suicide rates among veterans may be more than 22 a day

The DNC seems to be just as incompetent as the Obama administration.

At least the DNC didn't have some doddering old man talking to a chair at their convention.

Political conventions are awful anyway. I hated pep rallies in high school, and I hate them now.
 
I hated pep rallies in high school, and I hate them now.

High school prep rallies were to prepare you for being true to your country.

When some loud braggart tries to put me down
And says his school is great
I tell him right away
Now what's the matter buddy
Aint you heard of my school
Its number one in the state

So be true to your school now
Just like you would to your girl or guy
Be true to your school now
And let your colors fly
Be true to your school
 
I don't know, ask the right wing. Wasn't what I was referring to anyways.

Then why not be specific instead of resorting to vagaries? If you think there's some element contributing to these suicides, let's examine it. Otherwise, you're just making an empty and exceedingly partisan accusation.

Why don't you go back and read the threads on some of those. The bill wasn't killed because it was a Jobs bill, it was killed because of all the attachments made to it, including the Senate Dems military spending bill. If you look up the rest, you will probably find so many BS attachements that more than justify the killing/voting against the bills. Want to see how reps and others would really vote for them, then try them without the crap attached. This **** makes good headlines for those to lazy or stupid to dig into the real facts.

As opposed to the bills put forth by Republicans without these attachments? Or the staunch stance by Republicans not to add attachments in the first place? Oh wait, none of those happened. Every bill has absurd riders on them. That's how it works. It sucks, but that's how it works. The fact is, bills were offered, Republicans shot them down, no Republican bills came up to replace them and address the problems. One side is trying, one side is not. That's all there is to it.
 
I'm not real big on indoctrination.

Well if you're under 50 it's very likely you were indoctrinated by the radical left from K-12. It's called revisionism.

If you refer to the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia or the Confederate Navy Jack as the Confederate flag, you have been indoctrinated.
 
Well if you're under 50 it's very likely you were indoctrinated by the radical left from K-12.

You know that "I'm masturbating" pantomime, usually paired with an eye roll, that people do when they see or hear something ridiculously lame? I'm doing that now.
 
Sounds like one more reason to just have UHC and not worry about such complications.

Uh... no. Such a move would only take that incentive structure and make it available to the entire country.

Polls vary, but it appears to a pretty even 50/50 split. While 50.1% is technically a majority, I don't think you meant by such a slim margin, did you?

Ah, no. While agreeably liberals are a sizeable minority, conservatives have a significantly larger margin than 0.1%.
 
(CNN) -- Every day, 22 veterans take their own lives. That's a suicide every 65 minutes. As shocking as the number is, it may actually be higher.
The figure, released by the Department of Veterans Affairs in February, is based on the agency's own data and numbers reported by 21 states from 1999 through 2011. Those states represent about 40% of the U.S. population. The other states, including the two largest (California and Texas) and the fifth-largest (Illinois), did not make data available.
Who wasn't counted?
People like Levi Derby, who hanged himself in his grandfather's garage in Illinois on April 5, 2007. He was haunted, says his mother, Judy Caspar, by an Afghan child's death. He had handed the girl a bottle of water, and when she came forward to take it, she stepped on a land mine.

THIS IS FAILURE ON A CATASTROPHIC LEVEL, but something the hawks care to ignore.


Why suicide rate among veterans may be more than 22 a day - CNN.com

VA needs to do more. A LOT MORE. Example: I have a friend who did a tour in Iraq and two in Afghanistan. He rotated back here two years ago. He had his entire clavicle blown away by a muslim sniper. He came home with a purple heart, bronze medal, and some other commendations for his heroism. Now he can't find a job, has nowhere to live, and is living in a day-by-day motel or on the street every night. When he had a car, he lived in it; but the car was repo'ed. VA and Uncle Sam should give this guy a house or apartment and enough money to live. If he was black I am sure he would be eligible for section-8 and welfare. But since he was "merely" a White hero protecting our way of life; he gets jack sh*t.
 
Ah, no. While agreeably liberals are a sizeable minority, conservatives have a significantly larger margin than 0.1%.

50.1 was not an actual proportion. The actual numbers vary, and show either side having a majority. And sometimes (often, actually) neither side. The only consistent trends are that officers are more conservative than enlisted, and veterans are more liberal than current military members.
 
Veteran suicide rates alone do not necessarily tell us that VA care has failed. Maybe other details (such as observing that there are veterans seeking help and not getting it) demonstrate a failure, but we can't just notice a high suicide rate and then go on auto-blame mode against someone for not somehow preventing those suicides.

I think there is a mix of both here, i.e. some instances of VA care being deficient and people committing suicide while on long wait lists for help, but also I think that even with the most utopian scenario of a comprehensive array of instantaneously available world-class mental health care... we'd still see high suicide rates among veterans.

So my opinion is that yes we should be alert for possible shortcomings of VA care and think critically about how to beef it up if needed, as well as to be more vocal (both liberals and conservatives) about non-defensive military interventions in oil-rich nations.

But I also think we should be cautious not to be idiots about tossing around blame for people killing themselves.

1. he was responding to those who argued that it was in fact "the hawks" who could be blamed.

2. Both of his claims, however you want to adjust for his intent, are nonetheless accurate. For those whose suicide is driven by combat, the distinction between what we teach them to expect and what they then have to go through is a contributing factor. Agreeably it's nowhere as bad as it was for Vietnam, especially with the "return" factor, where there is at least public support until they find out the specifics, as opposed to public abuse.

3. Military suicide rates are, in fact, an overblown "crises". Our suicide rate is lower than the civilian rates among the same population. While taking care of our people and saving them when necessary remains critical, this issue is the result of a zero-defect mindset, not an actual "epidemic".


Before anyone loses their mind over that, my first team leader in the Marine Corps killed himself, as did a former platoon sergeant from my company and a Marine who had been under me. I've dealt with the issue. But we're not f****** victims.

I'm absolutely shocked. Two on this forum with libertarian and conservative next to their name making a rational argument. You both spoke in complete sentences using proper grammar and punctuation. You made well reasoned arguments using logic and one even had a link to a website that supports their assertions and appears credible.

I think hell is about to freeze over.

C's and Libers of this forum... pay attention to what just happened here. If you all argued in this manner you might advance your cause.
 
50.1 was not an actual proportion. The actual numbers vary, and show either side having a majority. And sometimes (often, actually) neither side. The only consistent trends are that officers are more conservative than enlisted, and veterans are more liberal than current military members.

You are right on veterans over current military members - which only demonstrates that, like most Americans, military members become more conservative as they age and grow wiser.

I've seen the breakdown between conservative, liberal, and moderate that show a plurality for self-identified "moderates", with conservatives a stronger minority than liberals. But take a look at the voting breakdowns. It's nowhere close. The military is more conservative than the general populace.
 
You are right on veterans over current military members - which only demonstrates that, like most Americans, military members become more conservative as they age and grow wiser.

How exactly did you get that fresh soldiers are more right wing, and then when they're finished with the military, they're more left wing, into "older means more conservative"? When they sign up, they believe the right wing slogans. When the live it, they learn reality.

And how does that square with retired seniors being more liberal? Frankly, it just seems like Baby Boomers are conservative, while everybody else is pretty liberal. The same people who went bananas for Reaganomics and screwed everything up are the same ones who went bananas for Bush's wars and tax cuts and screwed everything up even more.

I know you want vindication really badly, but you won't find it here.
 
How exactly did you get that fresh soldiers are more right wing, and then when they're finished with the military, they're more left wing, into "older means more conservative"? When they sign up, they believe the right wing slogans. When the live it, they learn reality.

People become more conservative as they age; so do members of the military. If you think that military service has a liberalizing effect, then you are going to have a hard time explaining why those who have served the longest (senior officers and SNCOs) are more conservative than first-termers.

And how does that square with retired seniors being more liberal?

what in the world makes you think that retired seniors are more liberal? Seniors are more conservative - and are simply also very risk-averse when it comes to their entitlement programs. But the liberal/conservative divide is hardly confined within the narrow issue of Social Security.

Frankly, it just seems like Baby Boomers are conservative, while everybody else is pretty liberal. The same people who went bananas for Reaganomics and screwed everything up are the same ones who went bananas for Bush's wars and tax cuts and screwed everything up even more.

I know you want vindication really badly, but you won't find it here.

I'm don't need vindication from the boomers of all people. Nor do I need it from veterans - veterans are people, too; there are cowards, liberals, conservatives, heroes, morally strong and morally weak among us. Being a veteran doesn't make one smarter or dumber. We can debate the economic reforms that gave us a massive economic boom, pulled us out of double-digit inflation, and helped collapse the Soviet Union elsewhere, if you like, but the boomers, by and large, are more liberal than either their parents or (and this is interesting) their children.
 
Then why not be specific instead of resorting to vagaries? If you think there's some element contributing to these suicides, let's examine it. Otherwise, you're just making an empty and exceedingly partisan accusation.
Try reading all the posts in the thread.


As opposed to the bills put forth by Republicans without these attachments? Or the staunch stance by Republicans not to add attachments in the first place? Oh wait, none of those happened. Every bill has absurd riders on them. That's how it works. It sucks, but that's how it works. The fact is, bills were offered, Republicans shot them down, no Republican bills came up to replace them and address the problems. One side is trying, one side is not. That's all there is to it.

I was discussing and pointing out those particular bill you linked, not bills in general. What I said applied to them and possible reasons for why non-liberals didn't support them, like the GoP. One wasn't even really killed by the GoP, but because of procedural errors, i.e., the senate tried to initiate a spending bill which can only be originated in the house.
 
This literally makes me want to cry, anybody who says the VA hasn't failed these men & woman is completely delusional. The government can't manage this, how can then be expected manage the entirety of the American people........

The VA would be failing if they weren't trying to help veterans with these issues. The fact is that they are, and they're trying to get veterans to seek help for combat related issues. The problem is veterans not going to the VA, and not being honest in their evaluations for one reason or another. There are even "veterans centers" where nothing you say will be recorded or documented to aid in the trust issues that many veterans have, but veterans have to walk through those doors and seek help.
 
We do not wage pointless wars. Only the govt. does.

The government represents the people, if the people don't like it, the people can stop it. If the people don't stop it, they support it.
 
The government represents the people

The govt. does not represent the people. PROOF: the majority disagree with most of what the govt. does.

, if the people don't like it, the people can stop it.

They can't, not without $ or the means to extort pols. If they could, they would've certainly done so by now.
 
This is not just a VA thing. This is an ugly thing that America does not want to look at. This is an ugly thing that administrations r or d do not want Americans to look at. FOX and CNN should show the faces and the names daily on the evening news of each one of the fallen. It alone would have an impact on US meddling foreign policy.
 
The govt. does not represent the people. PROOF: the majority disagree with most of what the govt. does.

Apparently not because people, by and large, keep electing the same people in every election. These politicians aren't getting recalled. You can't have people who hate the government putting the exact same people back in power again and again and have it make any sense.

They can't, not without $ or the means to extort pols. If they could, they would've certainly done so by now.

They can, they have a chance every time they go to the polls. Apparently, people aren't as unhappy as you seem to think. In reality, it's *YOU* that's unhappy. You don't matter. Only a collective agreement among the majority of voters matters.
 
This literally makes me want to cry, anybody who says the VA hasn't failed these men & woman is completely delusional. The government can't manage this, how can then be expected manage the entirety of the American people........

I agree with your sentiments, but I don't blame the VA, I blame the war criminals in office, both administrations, who brought us this cruel fraud and who continue it, mouthing platitudes about "support the troops" even as they continue the fraud.
 
VA needs to do more. A LOT MORE. Example: I have a friend who did a tour in Iraq and two in Afghanistan. He rotated back here two years ago. He had his entire clavicle blown away by a muslim sniper. He came home with a purple heart, bronze medal, and some other commendations for his heroism. Now he can't find a job, has nowhere to live, and is living in a day-by-day motel or on the street every night. When he had a car, he lived in it; but the car was repo'ed. VA and Uncle Sam should give this guy a house or apartment and enough money to live. If he was black I am sure he would be eligible for section-8 and welfare. But since he was "merely" a White hero protecting our way of life; he gets jack sh*t.

It's stories like this that break my heart, and there are thousands of them. I'm furious at the government for throwing medals at our wounded warriors as they kick them down the VA steps.

I'm willing to bet that as more and more young people experience the disillusionment of veterans, and see first-hand how our government really treats them when they cease to be useful, our "all volunteer" military will dwindle to a mere shadow of itself until someone in high places wakes the hell up, realizes that being in government is MORE than just destroying the other party while gaining power for their own, and understand that every single person in government has the absolute DUTY to work for the good of the nation instead of working for the good of themselves.
 
This literally makes me want to cry, anybody who says the VA hasn't failed these men & woman is completely delusional. The government can't manage this, how can then be expected manage the entirety of the American people........

Society has failed these young men and women. We have lowered the standards we expect of our young growing up. We have tried to remove as much competitive games in young children as possible and even lowered the standards for entry into the military. Young fragile minds are growing into adult fragile minds with inability to cope with disappointment and obstacles. We have literally brought this on ourselves.
 
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