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Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

ChrisL said:
I've already explained the fact that because drugs are ILLEGAL and you cannot obtain them legally, it makes for a strong black market. The same thing will happen with guns here in America.
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As I already pointed out, we do not see this phenomenon occurring in japan, where drugs are readily available but guns are not. This is likely because how profitable drugs are, how small profitable quantities are, the fact that they are a consumed good, and in developed nations, have a larger market than illegal guns.


They will find a way to get them regardless.
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Yet we have not seen such in Japan ...


And yes, if guns were ever outlawed, that would CERTAINLY strengthen the black market for them.
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yet that did not happen in Japan


We are not Japan. We are not an island nation. Our borders are NOT secure. We have a MUCH bigger population and our Constitutional rights make us unique.
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Smuggling occurs in japan ...

A VERY interesting perspective here. I encourage you all to read this.
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it just repeats the same arguments you have repeatedly failed to defend
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
As I already pointed out, we do not see this phenomenon occurring in japan, where drugs are readily available but guns are not. This is likely because how profitable drugs are, how small profitable quantities are, the fact that they are a consumed good, and in developed nations, have a larger market than illegal guns.
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No, this is due to the fact that Japan is an island nation and MUCH smaller than the United States. DERP!

Yet we have not seen such in Japan ...
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:roll:



yet that did not happen in Japan
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Again, you cannot compare us to Japan realistically. You seem desperate. :mrgreen:



Smuggling occurs in japan ...



it just repeats the same arguments you have repeatedly failed to defend
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Your Japan argument is ridiculous. I'm sure everyone can realize that for themselves though. Keep going and looking foolish though. It just demonstrates that you don't know what you're talking about, and I don't even believe that you are really a citizen of the US. You just show a very poor understanding of how things work in the US. You must be a brit.
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ChrisL said:
Dr. Chuckles said:
No, this is due to the fact that Japan is an island nation and MUCH smaller than the United States. DERP!
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Then feel free to cite this robust trade in geographically similar countries

Again, you cannot compare us to Japan realistically. You seem desperate. :mrgreen:
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No, just pointing out that your inevitable outcomes don't actually exist in reality. But if you want, feel free to point out the foreign states who have restrictive gun measures and outline the creation of this well stocked and easily accessible black market


Your Japan argument is ridiculous. I'm sure everyone can realize that for themselves though. Keep going and looking foolish though. It just demonstrates that you don't know what you're talking about, and I don't even believe that you are really a citizen of the US. You just show a very poor understanding of how things work in the US. You must be a brit.
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As I mentioned earlier you should do a bit of research on how to construct an argument.
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Dr. Chuckles said:
Then feel free to cite this robust trade in geographically similar countries



No, just pointing out that your inevitable outcomes don't actually exist in reality. But if you want, feel free to point out the foreign states who have restrictive gun measures and outline the creation of this well stocked and easily accessible black market




As I mentioned earlier you should do a bit of research on how to construct an argument.
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You can't be serious? Look at Chicago and Washington DC. The strictest gun laws in the nation and some of the highest murder rates. God! Educate yourself will you?

Deadly Distinction: Chicago Has the Highest Murder Rate in the U.S. | News | BET
 
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ChrisL said:
You can't be serious? Look at Chicago and Washington DC. The strictest gun laws in the nation and some of the highest murder rates. God! Educate yourself will you?
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You brought this up earlier and I pointed to the very weak level of control that occurs over interstate trade and travel (It's practically non-existent). The same can not be said for national borders

Secondly, going by your logic, we should be seeing a huge trade in illegal full autos, but they tend to represent an extremely small amount of the types of guns that are confiscated and used in crimes
 
Re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69]

Threegoofs said:
Oh, please. Tell us the story of psychoactive pharmaceuticals and how they relate.

I'm pretty sure you've got lots of propaganda and misinformation in store for us....
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There is only a statistical relationship, and of course that does not definitively establish a cause and effect relationship.

The statistics are that most of the people who commit such shootings are or have been treated with powerful psychoactive drugs, with the SSRI variety most common.

Several years ago, counting Columbine and several other such events, out of about 25 such shooters, 20 of them fell into that category. It appears so far that this guy adds +1.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
You brought this up earlier and I pointed to the very weak level of control that occurs over interstate trade and travel (It's practically non-existent). The same can not be said for national borders

Secondly, going by your logic, we should be seeing a huge trade in illegal full autos, but they tend to represent an extremely small amount of the types of guns that are confiscated and used in crimes
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The same can not be said for national borders? Really? That's great news! When did we gain control of our southern border?

and what makes you think that those guns being used on the streets of Chicago come from out of state? Is there any evidence that they do?
 
Dittohead not! said:
The same can not be said for national borders? Really?
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Yes


That's great news! When did we gain control of our southern border?
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people successfully crossing the border, or smuggling something through it, does not change the fact that there exist a higher degree of control when compared to those between the states. In fact, there needs to be no pretense made to "crossing and smuggling" across state borders making the difference rather obvious


and what makes you think that those guns being used on the streets of Chicago come from out of state? Is there any evidence that they do?
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So the argument is that intercounty trade is more controlled than interstate trade?


and what makes you think that those guns being used on the streets of Chicago come from out of state? Is there any evidence that they do?[/QUOTE]
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Yes




people successfully crossing the border, or smuggling something through it, does not change the fact that there exist a higher degree of control when compared to those between the states. In fact, there needs to be no pretense made to "crossing and smuggling" across state borders making the difference rather obvious




So the argument is that intercounty trade is more controlled than interstate trade?


and what makes you think that those guns being used on the streets of Chicago come from out of state? Is there any evidence that they do?
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I suppose you could say that intercounty trade is more controlled than interstate trade, as long as it is legal trade.

and those guns being used on the streets of Chicago, where do they come from? How do we know?
 
Dittohead not! said:
I suppose you could say that intercounty trade is more controlled than interstate trade, as long as it is legal trade.
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short of being made in chicago, they have to come from outside of it. And no, intercounty trade is just as wide open as interstate trade.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
short of being made in chicago, they have to come from outside of it. And no, intercounty trade is just as wide open as interstate trade.
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You brought this up earlier and I pointed to the very weak level of control that occurs over interstate trade and travel (It's practically non-existent). The same can not be said for national borders
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You seem to have switched sides.

Moreover, Chicago is not a state.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
You brought this up earlier and I pointed to the very weak level of control that occurs over interstate trade and travel (It's practically non-existent). The same can not be said for national borders

Secondly, going by your logic, we should be seeing a huge trade in illegal full autos, but they tend to represent an extremely small amount of the types of guns that are confiscated and used in crimes
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Full autos are not smuggled much as there is a very small market. Too expensive for the sports market, and even the dumbest of cops would tend to notice a convenience store thief with a Browning shoved down his pants.
 
jimbo said:
Full autos are not smuggled much as there is a very small market.
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Legal transactions are certainly expensive, given the various transfer fees and taxes imposed on class 3 weapons (not to mention, scarcity). But cheap full autos seem widely available in places like afghanistan for under 100 US.




Too expensive for the sports market, and even the dumbest of cops would tend to notice a convenience store thief with a Browning shoved down his pants.
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What are the confiscation and crime rates for long guns? I know hand guns likely represent a majority of such numbers, but I imagine there will still be a significant number of long guns in the mix. Not to mention, there are plenty of concealable and small subs on the market
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Legal transactions are certainly expensive, given the various transfer fees and taxes imposed on class 3 weapons (not to mention, scarcity). But cheap full autos seem widely available in places like afghanistan for under 100 US.
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LOL! Afghanistan? You mean where borders essentially do not exist? Where the former Soviet Union invaded and probably left behind thousands? Where they are much closer to soviet era arms dealers, Chinese copy's, and so on? There are cheap ak47s around the globe man. Because they are cheap and reliable hunks of metal. Seriously. Do you not know firearms? The damn gun is on the national flag of Mozambique. Basically if you visit any 3rd world nation you will find an ak47. They are like shotguns in the United States.
 
stonewall50 said:
LOL! Afghanistan? You mean where borders essentially do not exist? Where the former Soviet Union invaded and probably left behind thousands? Where they are much closer to soviet era arms dealers, Chinese copy's, and so on? There are cheap ak47s around the globe man.
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Yes, I am aware of their wide availability. Why would you think otherwise?


Because they are cheap and reliable hunks of metal. Seriously. Do you not know firearms?
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you just quoted a post where I indicate that they are cheap and widely available.

The damn gun is on the national flag of Mozambique. Basically if you visit any 3rd world nation you will find an ak47. They are like shotguns in the United States.
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That likely has more to do with the fact it was seen as the gun of the "revolution" and the Mozambique Liberation Front's ties to the soviets. Also during my travels in india Gun crime seemed rather scarce outside of areas with insurgent activity. And what crime there was certainly didn't involve Ak's. The same with Thailand, Bhutan, and Sri Lanka
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Yes, I am aware of their wide availability. Why would you think otherwise?




you just quoted a post where I indicate that they are cheap and widely available.



That likely has more to do with the fact it was seen as the gun of the "revolution" and the Mozambique Liberation Front's ties to the soviets. Also during my travels in india Gun crime seemed rather scarce outside of areas with insurgent activity. And what crime there was certainly didn't involve Ak's. The same with Thailand, Bhutan, and Sri Lanka
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Really? Your claim was that these weapons are widely available...outside the United States. The person to which you are responding was obviously not talking about Afghanistan. Hence my mocking tone and the comparison of an ak47 to a shotgun within the United States.

As for "crime in India," the weapon of choice is a common criminal gun world wide...and cheaper than an Ak47...a single shot weapon that can be simply made, concealed, and so on. Seriously? They don't need a full auto. The market is cheap and concealable weapons.

In the United States the market isn't ak47s or other "assault weapons." It is for cheap and easy to use weapons. Usually handgun or shotguns.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
You brought this up earlier and I pointed to the very weak level of control that occurs over interstate trade and travel (It's practically non-existent). The same can not be said for national borders

Secondly, going by your logic, we should be seeing a huge trade in illegal full autos, but they tend to represent an extremely small amount of the types of guns that are confiscated and used in crimes
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Really, that must be why we have so many illegal immigrants crossing over from Mexico. :roll:
 
stonewall50 said:
Really? Your claim was that these weapons are widely available...outside the United States. The person to which you are responding was obviously not talking about Afghanistan. Hence my mocking tone and the comparison of an ak47 to a shotgun within the United States.

As for "crime in India," the weapon of choice is a common criminal gun world wide...and cheaper than an Ak47...a single shot weapon that can be simply made, concealed, and so on. Seriously? They don't need a full auto. The market is cheap and concealable weapons.

In the United States the market isn't ak47s or other "assault weapons." It is for cheap and easy to use weapons. Usually handgun or shotguns.
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I still don't understand what you are attempting to address or what your argument is. You literally seem to be going on a rant without purpose does does not address anything I wrote. Could it be you're over emotional and ranting about nothing?

Really? Your claim was that these weapons are widely available...outside the United States.
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Yes. Which is why I pointed to their wide availability ***in places like Afghanistan***


The person to which you are responding was obviously not talking about Afghanistan.
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Yes, he was talking about the expense of smuggling weapons and lack of demand. Which raises two points: 1) why would they be expensive when cheap full autos are widely available. If we can't control the flow of guns from outside, in case of a ban, then these guns should be flooding our streets.

2) Why would you assume there was no demand? People both use long guns and autos can be had in compact subs.

Hence my mocking tone and the comparison of an ak47 to a shotgun within the United States.
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Which doesn't make any sense given the context


As for "crime in India," the weapon of choice is a common criminal gun world wide...and cheaper than an Ak47...a single shot weapon that can be simply made, concealed, and so on.
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You just claimed that the ak can be found anywhere in the developing world. So that was wrong?

They don't need a full auto. The market is cheap and concealable weapons.
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Why wouldn't they need a full auto?


In the United States the market isn't ak47s or other "assault weapons." It is for cheap and easy to use weapons. Usually handgun or shotguns.
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You just got done arguing the AK was cheap and easy to use
 
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Dr. Chuckles said:
this was already covered about a dozen times.

Proof by assertion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you should really read that
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This has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. We have illegal immigrants crossing the borders every day. For someone who claims to be from here, you sure don't know anything about our country, our rights, the way things work here. :roll: I think you might live in a cave on a mountain somewhere.
 
TurtleDude said:
secondly, I couldn't care less about foreigners' opinions on our rights. I generally see foreigners whining about rights they don' t have as Aesop Fox whining.
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Why would I want your rights in Dardania also? Why would I want to end up fighting for rights that ultimately kill me?

TurtleDude said:
The statistics indicate that trained respectful people increase my chances of surviving rather than the other way around. And I certainly am in a better position to make that decision than you are.

Threegoofs is always wrong on this issue. Quoting his incorrect nonsense is "fatal" in this debate
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Denial does not helps the problems that you are facing.
 
DDD said:
Why would I want your rights in Dardania also? Why would I want to end up fighting for rights that ultimately kill me?



Denial does not helps the problems that you are facing.
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That's the cost of Freedom, if you are not willing to die for it, you don't have it. Ask our founding fathers.
 
MACS-24 said:
That's the cost of Freedom, if you are not willing to die for it, you don't have it. Ask our founding fathers.
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Nice signature.

But you see I am free. I do not need to fight till the death for a right that will kill me neither? Why should you?
 
DDD said:
Nice signature.

But you see I am free. I do not need to fight till the death for a right that will kill me neither? Why should you?
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What makes some of you that oppose my constitutional right to own a gun, so scared that I am going to use it on you? Unless you have some thought in your head that you plan on doing harm to me or my family, you literally have NO chance of even knowing that I have the weapon. It irrational, and quite paranoid. In fact, I'd say that you come into contact everyday more than once with a gun owner, or a CCW holder, and don't even know it.

Your argument is an appeal to emotion, and a falsehood on its very premise.
 
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