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Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

Mason66 said:
I am just waiting for the answer as to how somebody with felonies on their criminal record could get security clearance to enter this facitilty.
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Agreed. Particularly this individual, who was apparently getting psychiatric treatment from the VA for, among other things, the voices in his head.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
I think you're confused, mate. What I wrote has nothing to do with gun violence in mexico. What it does is highlight the fact that removing someone's ability to legally buy a gun prevents them buying a gun via legal channels. Thus limiting their ability to buy guns.

For some reason you're interpreting that as "can't buy guns"
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Mexico has much stricter gun laws so there should be much less gun violence there according to your reasoning.
 
Mason66 said:
My girlfirend just researched what it takes to get a gun in Mexico.

You have to have a good reason to want a gun.

Living in a dangerous area and getting shot at was denied as a reason to want a gun.

It is crazy here.

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
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mexico's gun problems seem more a byproduct of a weak govt and state. For example, Japan has some of the strictest gun laws in the world and hardly no gun crime. But they have a very strong state and functional govt
 
Artevelde said:
Mexico has much stricter gun laws so there should be much less gun violence there according to your reasoning.
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actually no my reasoning does not lead to that. My reasoning is that limiting options one can use to buy guns limits one's options to buy guns...

Secondly, the reason the cartels set up shop in mexico was due to the fact that it's a weak and dysfunctional state. The US, for all it's problems, does not face anything near to what mexico does in this arena, and there is little to suggest similar restrictions would have such effects here (though I don't support such restrictions, anyway)
 
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Dr. Chuckles said:
actually no my reasoning does not lead to that. My reasoning is that limiting options one can use to buy guns limits their gun purchasing ability. Secondly, the reason the cartels set up shop in mexico was due to the fact that it's a weak and dysfunctional state. The US, for all it's problems, does not face anything near to what mexico does in this arena, and there is little to suggest similar restrictions would have such effects here (though I don't support such restrictions, anyway)
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Yes, it limits the ability to purchase them for those who want to do this while abiding the law. Criminals face no such problem.
 
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Re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard

ChezC3 said:
First we need to stop blaming the inanimate objects and blame the individuals.
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I got that. But that doesn't fix the problem. That's the point. There is nothing we can do to fix it. Sure, we can blame individuals. But that means something has already happened. That means the individual has already committed the atrocity.
 
Artevelde said:
Yes, it limits the ability to purchase them for those who want to do this while abiding the law.
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No, pointing out that limiting someone's legal ability to purchase a gun, limits someone's ability to purchase a gun, suggests nothing about who should face such limitations.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
mexico's gun problems seem more a byproduct of a weak govt and state. For example, Japan has some of the strictest gun laws in the world and hardly no gun crime. But they have a very strong state and functional govt
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lets see how silly the Japan/US comparison is.
1-Japan is a small Island relatively easily controlled
2-Japan had an enormous population reset button courtesy of WW2
3-Japan does not have to share two expansive land borders where illegal items can be smuggled
and finally...and most importantly...
4-Japans gangs do exactly what US gangs do. They manage to get illegal drugs and guns.
“Japan is basically a place where only yakuza and cops have guns,” Detective X stated. “We fire our guns less, so most of the shootings in Japan are yakuza versus yakuza — and as long as the yakuza are killing each other, the general public and the police didn’t seem to mind. But not anymore. There have been too many stray bullets.”
 
sawdust said:
Raise your hand if when you heard the news the first thing you thought was Muslim. Not saying it is, but that was my first thought.
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Somerville said:
A fine example of the success the right wing media has had in forming prejudices in American minds. It may well be Islamic radicals but the mere fact that it was your first thought is just one more instance of irrational hatred.

Anyone remember when their first thought upon hearing of such an instance would have concerned a worker "going postal"?
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sawdust said:
I would have thought going postal if the shooting was at a post office. It's in a Navy yard. I hope Gibbs wasn't shot.

Don't blame the right wing media or any media. Blame the shooter on an Army base who yelled about Allah as he shot soldiers. Are you saying that they didn't report that shooting on the Daily Worker? If they didn't, you should drop your subscription.
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Dr. Chuckles said:
I'm not sure what the issue is with thinking it was an islamic radical. They are a movement that we are at war with on a number of fronts and they tend to employ such tactics.
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Slyfox696 said:
I have just as much disdain for hate mongering media as you do, but it was the first thing which popped into my mind as well. This is a place with ties to the government, and the shooting is coming on the heels of a message from the Al-Qaeda promoting "lone wolf" attacks on US soil.

It's not an unreasonable conclusion to jump to.
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mike2810 said:
you beat me to it. Just read through the thread.

My thoughts, ranged from disgruntal employee(s), to lone wolf extremists. Time will tell who the shooter(s) are.

or for the conspiracy minded folks, maybe its a false flag operation by the govt to continue to control the public opinion on the war with terrorists for big oil and take our gun rights away.:mrgreen::lamo
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Dr. Chuckles said:
Actually no one suggested anything close to that ....
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Really? Not even a little bit close to that?
 
VanceMack said:
lets see how silly the Japan/US comparison is.
1-Japan is a small Island relatively easily controlled
2-Japan had an enormous population reset button courtesy of WW2
3-Japan does not have to share two expansive land borders where illegal items can be smuggled
and finally...and most importantly...
4-Japans gangs do exactly what US gangs do. They manage to get illegal drugs and guns.
“Japan is basically a place where only yakuza and cops have guns,” Detective X stated. “We fire our guns less, so most of the shootings in Japan are yakuza versus yakuza — and as long as the yakuza are killing each other, the general public and the police didn’t seem to mind. But not anymore. There have been too many stray bullets.”
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1) I find it amazing I'm continuously contending with knee jerk reactions from gun advocates

2) Most of your points do little to address mine (might as well add a bullet point for tea in china)

3)The level of gun crime in japan is ridiculously low. So I find it odd that you're asserting there is some gun crime issue there (there were 11 gun related homicides in 2008)
 
j-mac said:
Is it just me, or is there a lot more (D)'s than (R)'s in there?
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Nope, you're right. And all of them, whether D or R, would not be denied access to such a facility. So when the question is asked about how a felon would get access, the easy answer is that in some cases we elect them. For that matter, former Senator Jim Webb was caught carrying a revolver into the Senate - I was busted on that once in that his aide was the one actually carrying it for him - soooo, Bwana has a gun bearer.....
 
Dittohead not! said:
Really? Not even a little bit close to that?
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I had a range of choices. Noticed I also stated time will tell who the shooter(s) are? Yep. with the first little bit of information that was available we should not consider it was some extremist as a possibility:mrgreen:. Especially after AQ talking head spouted off that is what should happen to America.

Where in my statement did I say that was the only choice or that I believe it was 100% an extremist.
So is it your stance that when we have mass shootings we should not consider the possibility of it being a terrorist attack at the beginning?

So does it make me a bad person to even think that it was in the realm of possibilities? If you didn't think it, then maybe your mind is to closed.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
1) I find it amazing I'm continuously contending with knee jerk reactions from gun advocates

2) Most of your points do little to address mine (might as well add a bullet point for tea in china)

3)The level of gun crime in japan is ridiculously low. So I find it odd that you're asserting there is some gun crime issue there (there were 11 gun related homicides in 2008)
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You know, Doc, this is not Japan. I checked. It isn't. I understand the correlations, but I just watched a couple of guys attempting to rob a store in the UK with a knife. The human predilection for violence is not limited by means but by intent.
 
mike2810 said:
I had a range of choices. Noticed I also stated time will tell who the shooter(s) are? Yep. with the first little bit of information that was available we should not consider it was some extremist as a possibility:mrgreen:. Especially after AQ talking head spouted off that is what should happen to America.

Where in my statement did I say that was the only choice or that I believe it was 100% an extremist.
So is it your stance that when we have mass shootings we should not consider the possibility of it being a terrorist attack at the beginning?

So does it make me a bad person to even think that it was in the realm of possibilities? If you didn't think it, then maybe your mind is to closed.
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I didn't say that you were a bad person, or that it was unreasonable to think that the shooter might be a Muslim extremist.

Only that terrorism was one of the possibilities being discussed.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
1) I find it amazing I'm continuously contending with knee jerk reactions from gun advocates

2) Most of your points do little to address mine (might as well add a bullet point for tea in china)

3)The level of gun crime in japan is ridiculously low. So I find it odd that you're asserting there is some gun crime issue there (there were 11 gun related homicides in 2008)
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:lamo Addressing your comments is a 'kneejerk' reaction. I get it. Your kind of foolishness only stands on its own if it is COMPLETELY unchallenged. I certianly understand why you want it to remain that way.

My points very directly addressed your Japanese connection or more importantly...the COMPLETE lack of valid connection. It DID however COMPLETELY point to the FACT...gangs...violent criminals..even on Japan where gun ownership carries massive fines and gun use can carry a life sentence...GANGS manage to get and use guns.
 
Dittohead not! said:
OK, if you say so.

Let's redact all of the comments about Muslims and terrorists, then.
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people can make comments about Muslims and terrorists, and even about their first thought about this involving a Muslim, and it would still not be anything akin to what you suggest.
 
humbolt said:
You know, Doc, this is not Japan. I checked.
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who said it was? I was responding to the comment about strict gun control inevitably leading to a scenario akin to what mexico is experiences. Secondly, I think the control issue here would go more along the lines of a japan than a mexico, for obvious reasons.

but I just watched a couple of guys attempting to rob a store in the UK with a knife. The human predilection for violence is not limited by means but by intent.
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I would rather deal with a guy wielding a knife than a gun, in most scenarios.
 
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