• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123,226]

To achieve that minimum wage, how much value do you calculate the worker must produce for his employer? Wages aren't based on need. They are based on production.

Only when profit sharing is involved. Otherwise your wage is static and doesn't give you one red cent more if you produce more.
 
Well then, what do you do about jobs that only demand $6 or $7p/hr? Pay more than double the value of the work being provided? You need to go beyond just raising the wage and think about the ripple effect. Or do you believe all that will happen in a vacuum?

I believe Congress created the Fair Labor Standards Act for a reason. I am not sure why they handed the decision about picking a minimum wage to the individual States, but since Congress did that in 2010 many States have made it higher than the federal minimum; and some counties have made it higher than the State minimums. In Santa Fe it's $9.50 and in San Francisco it's $9.79 for example. In my example of what it costs to just get by in a minimum lifestyle (no cell phone, no car, no satellite TV, etc); a person would be barely existing and would need $1,900 a month. Congress says if you are a family of three and make less than $9.17 you are below the poverty level ($19,060 a year). All things considered, I feel a minimum wage of $15/hr would be reasonable.
 
I believe Congress created the Fair Labor Standards Act for a reason. I am not sure why they handed the decision about picking a minimum wage to the individual States, but since Congress did that in 2010 many States have made it higher than the federal minimum; and some counties have made it higher than the State minimums. In Santa Fe it's $9.50 and in San Francisco it's $9.79 for example. In my example of what it costs to just get by in a minimum lifestyle (no cell phone, no car, no satellite TV, etc); a person would be barely existing and would need $1,900 a month. Congress says if you are a family of three and make less than $9.17 you are below the poverty level ($19,060 a year). All things considered, I feel a minimum wage of $15/hr would be reasonable.

Here in Santa Fe we got it up over $10 now.
 
Here in Santa Fe we got it up over $10 now.

You see my point Rob, correct? Congress made a minimum wage out of an obligation to American Citizens to make sure they had at least a minimum salary. It had nothing to do with how many widgets a laborer can make in an hour or how much profit a corporation can make off the employee in an hour. And not only does Congress feel that way, States feel that way and counties feel that way. In your city of Santa Fe, the politicians felt that $10 was what was needed exist on. I personally feel $15 is about more realistic. Nobody can live on $7 an hour. And additionally, I would say the lower the minimum wage, the more crime will go up. As more people fall into deep poverty, they will have to resort to crime to feed themselves and their family.
 
You see my point Rob, correct? Congress made a minimum wage out of an obligation to American Citizens to make sure they had at least a minimum salary. It had nothing to do with how many widgets a laborer can make in an hour or how much profit a corporation can make off the employee in an hour. And not only does Congress feel that way, States feel that way and counties feel that way. In your city of Santa Fe, the politicians felt that $10 was what was needed exist on. I personally feel $15 is about more realistic. Nobody can live on $7 an hour. And additionally, I would say the lower the minimum wage, the more crime will go up. As more people fall into deep poverty, they will have to resort to crime to feed themselves and their family.

Yeah. If we get down to the basics of truth, employees all want to be rich and employers want free labor. Being that it is not a level bargaining field between employer and employee, the government minimum wage is/should be a promise that a fair day's work makes a fair days wage. Production has absolutely no bearing on wages in most jobs and zero in minimum wage jobs.
 
McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123]

Here in Santa Fe we got it up over $10 now.

And go figure cost of living is higher there (higher than average).
 
Came across this link.
I can't verify that it is correct information, but it is definitely interesting.

The Reality Of Who Actually Works For Minimum Wage Will Shock You

Thanks Painter. Those numbers align with things I have read and are probably quite accurate. I had read that minimum wage earners almost exclusively had less than a bachelors degree. As USA becomes less of a manufacturing giant in this global economy, the importance of a good education will continue to increase.
 
Thanks Painter. Those numbers align with things I have read and are probably quite accurate. I had read that minimum wage earners almost exclusively had less than a bachelors degree. As USA becomes less of a manufacturing giant in this global economy, the importance of a good education will continue to increase.

Here's another one for you being that people try to argue that it's an entry level job for kids...

The fast-food industry used to employ mostly younger people just trying to make some extra money as they went through school. Now, workers are older and depend on the work to feed families. Analysis by the Economic Policies Institute shows that the average age of minimum-wage workers is now 35, and that 88% are 20 and older.

link...
 
And go figure cost of living is higher there (higher than average).

Cost of living was high here long before the minimum wage was raised. Nice try though.
 
McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123]

What is a "fair" wage? This baffles me. What does a McDonald's employee do that deserves $1900 a month (someone stated that amount)? Did they have to risk anything for the job? Or just apply? What kind of education? A poster here demonstrated that one certainly doesn't need to invest money in an education. So they deserve ~$1400-$1900 a month to put "burgers" in microwaves or whatever they cook in? Even in a crap economy where people stop going to the store? So what the hell should we pay a doctor who busted his ass, paid out the ass, went through 8 years of college, took test after test, 2 years residency and spent ungodly sums of money? What about the nurse who spent long hours getting the education, dealing with crazy patients, cleaning up human fecal matter, and worked their ass off and paid out the ass for education? The fireman who had to learn the trade, bust his ass to pass the tests, and risk his life? The electrician? The carpenter? The small business man? The big business man? At the end of the day you want to talk about "fair" wages? Talk about teachers. Or anyone else I listed who is paid poorly.

You know. I think I am coming up with a theory. We have lost industrial/manufacturing jobs here. We ship a lot of that stuff overseas. And now we wonder why we have a surplus of employees to ask, "Do you want to make that a super small for .25 less?" (Props if you get it). We need jobs here. End of story. If we want jobs, we gotta make em. And ditch digging is a job.

I'm hoping for law school. I'm not afraid. I'm hopeful. Maybe the real world will kick my teeth down my throat, but I'm not gonna quit until I scratch and claw my way into a job that pays for a family. Oh. And I will make sure my kid gets and engineering degree. Lol.
 
McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123]

Cost of living was high here long before the minimum wage was raised. Nice try though.

Mhm. And what do you think will happen to cost of living when employers are forced to pay their bottom tier employees higher wages for mediocre work? Eat into profit? Or do you think they are going to just raise the price of goods, let go of the least efficient employees, and keep the quality guys on for a "higher" wage?


http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ib105
 
Mhm. And what do you think will happen to cost of living when employers are forced to pay their bottom tier employees higher wages for mediocre work? Eat into profit? Or do you think they are going to just raise the price of goods, let go of the least efficient employees, and keep the quality guys on for a "higher" wage?


Minimum Wage Myths | NCPA

Also, instead of posing a question to dish off responsibility for owning up to your claims... how about proving your claims? Just a thought. It's rather disingenuous to make accusations then use the question format to put all the burden of proof of your claims on others.

As far as your link... Thanks for the link to the pro "free market" right wing propaganda site. I'll pass on relying on their info for now.

Our goal is to develop and promote private, free-market alternatives to government regulation and control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector.​

That's admitting that they are fixing the facts to suit their goals of saying all government is evil.


so....

prove to me that Santa Fe is doomed to have and even higher cost of living because of the recent minimum wage raise. Tell me. Show me. Don't ask me please.
 
Last edited:
Minimum wage has nothing to do with production. Minimum wage is determined by Congress. I believe they made a minimum wage to make sure that employers paid American citizens enough to live on. My above numbers show that you need $1,400 to live on for a family of three. The US Government says the poverty level for a family of three (my example) is $19,090. Your assertion is that someone must produce something to deserve a minimum wage? Firemen don't produce anything - should they make $2 an hour?

Price and wage controls don't work if the price is driven below the cost of production or the wage doesn't meet the demand of production. Chavez tried price controls for bread in Venezuela. He set the price below the cost of production and the result was a bread shortage. Similarly if minimum wages were set above their ability to pay for themselves, the production costs of the associated businesses that require minimum wage workers would be driven high enough that entire industries could be put out of business or their products either unaffordable or unpopular.

Firemen are either paid by the government or volunteer precisely because they produce nothing but they preform a necessary function in society.
 
Only when profit sharing is involved. Otherwise your wage is static and doesn't give you one red cent more if you produce more.

No, most businesses, (I'm excluding ESOP's) don't exist for the benefit of the employee. Above minimum wage which is set by the government, businesses pay wages which are set by the market. Business owners don't pay more than they have to but they rely on the most productive employees they can hire. To attract or keep good employees business owners manage pay scales to achieve this objective. In my business in a recession I could hire good cabinet makers for twelve bucks an hour. When there was full employment they cost me seventeen to twenty. Business owners make their decisions about wages strictly on production and the market. More productive workers make more money and it doesn't matter if they are salesmen or masons.

Look at how the market sets McDonalds wages in North Dakota. With full employment because of the oil boom and a shortage of fast food workers they pay fifteen dollars an hour with a three hundred dollar signing bonus for line cooks. Oil field workers are knocking down 70k annually and they can afford increased food costs.

This supply and demand thing is difficult to get around and the so called living wage is going to be it's casualty.
 
No, most businesses, (I'm excluding ESOP's) don't exist for the benefit of the employee. Above minimum wage which is set by the government, businesses pay wages which are set by the market. Business owners don't pay more than they have to but they rely on the most productive employees they can hire. To attract or keep good employees business owners manage pay scales to achieve this objective. In my business in a recession I could hire good cabinet makers for twelve bucks an hour. When there was full employment they cost me seventeen to twenty. Business owners make their decisions about wages strictly on production and the market. More productive workers make more money and it doesn't matter if they are salesmen or masons.

Look at how the market sets McDonalds wages in North Dakota. With full employment because of the oil boom and a shortage of fast food workers they pay fifteen dollars an hour with a three hundred dollar signing bonus for line cooks. Oil field workers are knocking down 70k annually and they can afford increased food costs.

This supply and demand thing is difficult to get around and the so called living wage is going to be it's casualty.
Good point. McDonalds is a profitable franchise, but not every store is as profitable as the next. Same with many retail outlets: some are profitable others not so much. Raise the minimum too high and stores will close, others will reduce hours and staff. I just don't get how liberals believe that fewer stores, less expansion, and fewer workers with fewer hours is a better scenario for people looking for work.
 
McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123]

Also, instead of posing a question to dish off responsibility for owning up to your claims... how about proving your claims? Just a thought. It's rather disingenuous to make accusations then use the question format to put all the burden of proof of your claims on others.

As far as your link... Thanks for the link to the pro "free market" right wing propaganda site. I'll pass on relying on their info for now.

Our goal is to develop and promote private, free-market alternatives to government regulation and control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector.​

That's admitting that they are fixing the facts to suit their goals of saying all government is evil.


so....

prove to me that Santa Fe is doomed to have and even higher cost of living because of the recent minimum wage raise. Tell me. Show me. Don't ask me please.

Oh? So I can't ask question now? Why? Because you cannot answer them right? Seriously. Give it the old college try and tell me what in the hell you expect an employer to do when you raise the cost of paying his labor force?

As for the link. How does that admit to "fixing the stats?" Does that mean that everyone with an agenda changes the stats to suit their needs? Or do you just not have evidence and data to fend off the studies and claims, so instead you just write them off as "right wing propaganda" because it doesn't support what you think it should?
 
McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123]

No, most businesses, (I'm excluding ESOP's) don't exist for the benefit of the employee. Above minimum wage which is set by the government, businesses pay wages which are set by the market. Business owners don't pay more than they have to but they rely on the most productive employees they can hire. To attract or keep good employees business owners manage pay scales to achieve this objective. In my business in a recession I could hire good cabinet makers for twelve bucks an hour. When there was full employment they cost me seventeen to twenty. Business owners make their decisions about wages strictly on production and the market. More productive workers make more money and it doesn't matter if they are salesmen or masons.

Look at how the market sets McDonalds wages in North Dakota. With full employment because of the oil boom and a shortage of fast food workers they pay fifteen dollars an hour with a three hundred dollar signing bonus for line cooks. Oil field workers are knocking down 70k annually and they can afford increased food costs.

This supply and demand thing is difficult to get around and the so called living wage is going to be it's casualty.

Amen!!! I just don't grasp how someone thinks a non educated, no skill employee, deserves a wage that is competitive with someone who went to college for 4 years.
 
Except for those who will lose their franchises and have them close, but that wouldn't concern you would it.


Wow all those people who seem to have figured out that paying $15/hour at McDonalds will still let the owner make a nice profit. They should buy some franchises and follow their own advice, they'll make a killing.
 
I believe Congress created the Fair Labor Standards Act for a reason. I am not sure why they handed the decision about picking a minimum wage to the individual States, but since Congress did that in 2010 many States have made it higher than the federal minimum; and some counties have made it higher than the State minimums.

I'm just going to point out that Congress didn't hand anything to the States, they already have that power. It's the States that hand power to the Federal government, and can take it away, if they wish.

In Santa Fe it's $9.50 and in San Francisco it's $9.79 for example. In my example of what it costs to just get by in a minimum lifestyle (no cell phone, no car, no satellite TV, etc); a person would be barely existing and would need $1,900 a month. Congress says if you are a family of three and make less than $9.17 you are below the poverty level ($19,060 a year). All things considered, I feel a minimum wage of $15/hr would be reasonable.

I think that throughout this thread, there is a fundamental misunderstanding by the left on how the economy works. To say that a $15p/hr wage is a reasonable rate of payment without even knowing what the job is really tells the story. You are also saying that the employer should pay more, even double, what the job is worth in the local market, because the employee "needs" it to meet a certain standard of living. In fact, you are basically consenting to price increases when you do this.

So, you want the business owner to pay double the actual cost of labor. Now, let me ask, when you and everyone that wants this to happen goes shopping, especially at one of these businesses, would you have any problem when your grocery bill comes to $100 and then there is a surcharge at the end bringing the bill up to around $200? You certainly can't sit there and lobby for such an increase in the cost of the goods you purchase, and then not be willing to pay more.

I mean, of course you cannot think that imposing such an anti-free market requirement on the business would have no effect on the business, or the rest of the formerly free market, right?
 
Last edited:
Firemen don't produce anything - should they make $2 an hour?

You didn't just seriously say that! I'm guessing that you mean that what they do doesn't leave a product that you can hold in your hand. Because, of course, they put out fires. And they are not a business, for the most part. Maybe one house burns when they show up, maybe an entire neighborhood burns if they don't. They might be worth more than $2p/hr. It's about value, not the actual product.
 
You didn't just seriously say that! I'm guessing that you mean that what they do doesn't leave a product that you can hold in your hand. Because, of course, they put out fires. And they are not a business, for the most part. Maybe one house burns when they show up, maybe an entire neighborhood burns if they don't. They might be worth more than $2p/hr. It's about value, not the actual product.

Hell, most firefighters, outside of cities, are volunteers, and they provide a much more valuable service to society than any McDonald's employee. Maybe McDonald's workers should all be volunteers?
 
Firemen are either paid by the government or volunteer precisely because they produce nothing but they preform a necessary function in society.

You said, and I quote: "To achieve that minimum wage, how much value do you calculate the worker must produce for his employer? Wages aren't based on need. They are based on production.".

You said this pal, not me. So my example of the Fireman stands to your silly post that started it. You said minimum wage was based on what someone can produce. So what does a cop produce? What does a fireman produce? What does a teacher produce? What does a bus driver produce?
 
You didn't just seriously say that! I'm guessing that you mean that what they do doesn't leave a product that you can hold in your hand.

Please do not twist my words or take my words out of context. That is insulting and infuriating. My example of a Fireman was based on Sawdust saying that minimum wage had to be based on what a human being can produce. "To achieve that minimum wage, how much value do you calculate the worker must produce for his employer? Wages aren't based on need. They are based on production.". -- SAWDUST
 
Back
Top Bottom