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McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123,226]

Jack Hays said:
The Economist, partly tongue in cheek, calculates relative cost of living at different locations around the world via their "Big Mac Index," so the price does indeed vary. If memory serves, the most expensive I recall was a $13 Big Mac in Zurich.:peace
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I'd be willing to bet that Zurich has factors other than employee wage driving that price.
 
The Man said:
No answer? Then why bother posting a response?
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Really? You make a huge, false bull**** narrative of the topic then criticize it's outcome just to argue with your own narrative and then you expect people to actually somehow engage you on that fake playing field that doesn't exist? Be reasonable and then you might have people to debate with.
 
The Man said:
$10.50/hour isn't $15/hour, is it?
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And $15/hour isn't $30/hour, is it?

I'm at least speaking within reality. Things that are happening and are provable rather than extrapolating fake scenarios with numbers I've pulled directly out of my arse.
 
poweRob said:
Really? You make a huge, false bull**** narrative of the topic then criticize it's outcome just to argue with your own narrative and then you expect people to actually somehow engage you on that fake playing field that doesn't exist? Be reasonable and then you might have people to debate with.
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I asked why/how they came up with $15/hour to fight for? Why that number? Why not $30/hour (or make up your own number)?

If you don't know the answer, or don't even have an intelligent guess, then simply don't respond. Thanks.
 
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poweRob said:
I see your point but there is no doubt that In-N-Out employees are contributing far more to society than McD employees are. Not only in spending but also in their wages making them ineligible and not in need of food stamps just to survive. If we just tie the minimum wage to inflation and make a 40 hour work week on minimum wage pay enough so that people wouldn't be able to qualify government subsidies and are able to live off of... our economy will stabilize rather well.
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There are only 3% of U.S. workers now getting the minimum wage (MW), with those on "the dole" now getting far more than that. As soon as the federal MW goes up (in excess of a tiny periodic inflation adjustment) so will the federal poverty level, COLA adjustments (to everything) and we are right back where we started (minus a few jobs) but with higher prices for all U.S. goods/services. Rinse and repeat...
 
The Man said:
I asked why/how they came up with $15/hour to fight for. Why that number? Why not $30/hour (or make up your own number)?

If you don't know the answer, or even have an intelligent guess, then simply don't respond. Thanks.
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Anyone with two working brain cells knows you were trolling the topic with rhetorical question rather than asking a question you wanted an answer to. The tip off is that you didn't ask "why $15/hour?" you took it a step further with the silly $30/hour notion just to do, as I already said, the logical fallacy of reductio ad absurdum.

If you actually want an educated guess then it would be that this is how bargaining happens. You put out a high number that is still within the realm of reality. You don't start buy cutting yourself back before any negotiating can happen. On a side note, this is something that I criticize Obama over.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
There are only 3% of U.S. workers now getting the minimum wage (MW), with those on "the dole" now getting far more than that. As soon as the federal MW goes up (in excess of a tiny periodic inflation adjustment) so will the federal poverty level, COLA adjustments (to everything) and we are right back where we started (minus a few jobs) but with higher prices for all U.S. goods/services. Rinse and repeat...
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You are simply assuming that prices will skyrocket beyond the wage increases' affordability. So it's not as simple as rinse and repeat. If it were then we'd never ever ever have any adjustments in poverty levels because your logic seems to be that price movement directly reflects wage movement penny per penny.
 
The Man said:
I asked why/how they came up with $15/hour to fight for. Why that number?
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Here's how I would come up with a Minimum wage.

Assumption 1: I figure the husband has to take care of himself, perhaps his wife if she is not working too, and maybe one small kid.

Assumption 2: Cost to live in USA, assuming a person cannot afford to relocated to the cheapest part of USA on a whim.
Apartment (1-2 bedrooms, 1 bathroom): $600/month
Food: $600/month
Medical copay/pharmacy: $25/month
Utilities: $200/month
Telephone: $50/month
Bus or public transportation: $200/month
Clothing and home furnishings: $200/month
Dental and eyecare: $50/month
Other expenses: $100/month

Needed take-home per family = $1400/month *AFTER* medical insurance and taxes. Therefore, before-tax wages need to be about $1900/month. $1900 divided by 160 hours of work is $12 per hour. Assuming I missed some expenses, pad in $3. So I feel a reasonable minimum wage is about $15 per hour.
 
poweRob said:
Anyone with two working brain cells knows you were trolling the topic with rhetorical question rather than asking a question you wanted an answer to. The tip off is that you didn't ask "why $15/hour?" you took it a step further with the silly $30/hour notion just to do, as I already said, the logical fallacy of reductio ad absurdum.

If you actually want an educated guess then it would be that this is how bargaining happens. You put out a high number that is still within the realm of reality. You don't start buy cutting yourself back before any negotiating can happen. On a side note, this is something that I criticize Obama over.
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You apparently don't have two working brain cells, because you didn't understand the intention of my question at all. It was a legitemate question that I want to know the answer to. Thanks.

And you say "within the realm of reality". $15/hour is nowhere close to reality for a starting fast food worker. Asking for $30 really would be no more absurd.
 
The Man said:
No, you're really not.
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This changes my mind completely. I stand corrected. Your contributions to this topic are invaluable. Keep 'em comin'.
 
The Man said:
You apparently don't have two working brain cells, because you didn't understand the intention of my question at all. It was a legitemate question that I want to know the answer to. Thanks.
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Really? then why the ad hominem attack citing my first paragraph when I provided an answer in my second paragraph that you seemed to have ignored altogether? Guess you weren't wanting an answer after all huh?
 
poweRob said:
Really? then why the ad hominem attack citing my first paragraph when I provided an answer in my second paragraph that you seemed to have ignored altogether? Guess you weren't wanting an answer after all huh?
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I didn't attack you, and you answered nothing. Why are you still posting?
 
ttwtt78640 said:
There are only 3% of U.S. workers now getting the minimum wage (MW), with those on "the dole" now getting far more than that. As soon as the federal MW goes up (in excess of a tiny periodic inflation adjustment) so will the federal poverty level, COLA adjustments (to everything) and we are right back where we started (minus a few jobs) but with higher prices for all U.S. goods/services. Rinse and repeat...
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I disagree. No matter what the minimum wage is, there will be no change in the cost of milking a cow, growing an acre of wheat, pumping oil out of a field in Evenston, Wyoming, etc. Maybe a burger will cost a bit more at Mickey D's; but 90% of what we consume in America has nothing to do with a minimum wage worker. No minimum wage workers build cars in detroit, wait on you at a doctors office or a hospital, fix your roads, cash your check at the bank, fly your airplanes, grow your crops or raise your meats, sail your freighter ships, or fix your telephone lines. Places you see minimum wage is the dude that stocks your Campell Soups at Publix at 3 AM, drop your fries at Wendy's, or carry your groceries to the car at Winn-Dixie. But that's a mere fraction of the people you interact with every day.
 
The Man said:
I didn't attack you, and you answered nothing. Why are you still posting?
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This is what I posted that you replied to yet ignored.

poweRob said:
If you actually want an educated guess then it would be that this is how bargaining happens. You put out a high number that is still within the realm of reality. You don't start buy cutting yourself back before any negotiating can happen. On a side note, this is something that I criticize Obama over.
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You can stop pretending you ever wanted a debate now.
 
poweRob said:
Since I posted that I've been googling In-N-Out burger info and it's rather incredible. The woman who runs it is the youngest female billionaire and their wages are awesome as well as their business model. It is privately owned so no franchising and even though they don't expand overly fast they do expand and the conditions are neat... they have to be located near one of their distribution centers because no store has a microwave or freezer. So it's rather fresh. I like the simplicity too as you stated. The store managers of these tiny joints are pushing $100k to $150k/year averaging about 14 years of experience there.

There are none around here but I was in Phoenix when they expanded there and people lost their minds over it.
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To answer your response up, yeah its a different business model from McDonald's. Their ability to pay higher wages isn't necessarily a reflection on McDonald's ability.

Usually I see competitive businesses fall into two kinds of categories. Businesses that hire a lot of employees and pay low wages or businesses that hire fewer employees and pay higher wages, making up the difference using efficiency and productivity.
 
poweRob said:
This is what I posted that you replied to yet ignored.



You can stop pretending you ever wanted a debate now.
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I wanted/want a debate, but I should specify that I'd like a debate with people who have some intelligence.
 
poweRob said:
I'd be willing to bet that Zurich has factors other than employee wage driving that price.
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No doubt. I was only illustrating price variability. The primary use of the BMI is to assess currency values.
 
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poweRob said:
You are simply assuming that prices will skyrocket beyond the wage increases' affordability. So it's not as simple as rinse and repeat. If it were then we'd never ever ever have any adjustments in poverty levels because your logic seems to be that price movement directly reflects wage movement penny per penny.
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OK then make MW $14.42/hour and we all then get at least the current median U.S. wage (less the affect of inflation that it causes). Of course, many cashiers will then be replaced by self check-out machines, more jobs outsourced and more illegal aliens pouring in.
 
ReformCollege said:
To answer your response up, yeah its a different business model from McDonald's. Their ability to pay higher wages isn't necessarily a reflection on McDonald's ability.

Usually I see competitive businesses fall into two kinds of categories. Businesses that hire a lot of employees and pay low wages or businesses that hire fewer employees and pay higher wages, making up the difference using efficiency and productivity.
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True but there's nothing out there keeping someone from stealing In-n-out burgers' business model and paying $8/hour. Not that I'd think it'd work. Once you have a loyal customer base combined with a loyal strong workforce... it's hard to beat. Workers who see a future with a company actually look for more than just a paycheck. They actually care if the company to succeeds and will help provide ways to make that happen. Costco's CEO recognized this. He says because his employees are paid well, he doesn't have the internal theft issues that others have and he has lower training costs because turnover is much lower.

Our country has a vision problem. Our political system is designed to not give a damn about the future beyond their 2, 4 or 6 year next election. As far as business, publicly traded companies don't care what goes on in the next decade but rather how the next quarter looks which is why CEO's today generally aren't with the company for long at all while back prior to the 80's they were their for decades prior to being CEO of that company. In the 80's executives were then allowed to be paid in stock options narrowing the vision of the company's future. /side-rant off
 
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Snappo said:
I disagree. No matter what the minimum wage is, there will be no change in the cost of milking a cow, growing an acre of wheat, pumping oil out of a field in Evenston, Wyoming, etc. Maybe a burger will cost a bit more at Mickey D's; but 90% of what we consume in America has nothing to do with a minimum wage worker. No minimum wage workers build cars in detroit, wait on you at a doctors office or a hospital, fix your roads, cash your check at the bank, fly your airplanes, grow your crops or raise your meats, sail your freighter ships, or fix your telephone lines. Places you see minimum wage is the dude that stocks your Campell Soups at Publix at 3 AM, drop your fries at Wendy's, or carry your groceries to the car at Winn-Dixie. But that's a mere fraction of the people you interact with every day.
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You are making one HUGE assumption - that whatever the MW is increased to will not exceed the wages of those now making "one step" up from that (and so on). It is the ripple effect that causes inflation. Nearly every product/service is based on both direct and indirect labor costs. The cost of a McBurger in relation to a grocery store burger will not likely change; if a McBurger goes up $1 so will a grocery store burger, along with the price of the fixin's - do you think grocery store cashiers/stockers will not see a raise when the MW goes up? Will a construction worker/truck driver not expect a raise to cover the increased cost of their breakfast/lunch?
 
ttwtt78640 said:
OK then make MW $14.42/hour and we all then get at least the current median U.S. wage (less the affect of inflation that it causes). Of course, many cashiers will then be replaced by self check-out machines, more jobs outsourced and more illegal aliens pouring in.
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While I don't agree with you that automation would all the sudden pop up because as I stated earlier, if automation were to be available, it would already be implemented... I do however FULLY agree with you about the illegal alien workers issue. That is a rather easy fix even when it's made difficult by our politicians. If you ever want to change society, start putting white collar criminals behind bars. Not fines. Jail. I have a hard time being mad at someone trying to feed their family. I do have a problem with businesses recruiting and hiring them. Unfortunately, our system is all about putting the workers in jail and holding cells for deportation but simply just fine the employer that threw that carrot out there to get them here. IMO, in this era where money=speech and corporations are people, it's because illegal aliens don't fund campaigns while corporate people do.
 
poweRob said:
Out country has a vision problem. Our political system is designed to not give a damn about the future beyond their 2, 4 or 6 year next election. As far as business, publicly traded companies don't care what goes on in the next decade but rather how the next quarter looks which is why CEO's today generally aren't with the company for long at all while back prior to the 80's they were their for decades prior to being CEO of that company. In the 80's executives were then allowed to be paid in stock options narrowing the vision of the company's future. /side-rant off
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It's not really a side-rant, in my opinion. Actually I think it points to equity-based executive compensation which has proliferated and has widely-touted upsides but not necessarily intuitive downsides, and it seems like you're sniffing that out. I mean if we want to discuss compensation, we ought to discuss business models, right?

And when it comes to minimum wages and business models of fast food chains, it's a rather strange debate. Do people, generally speaking, even genuinely want this industry to succeed in the first place? If so, why? Look at the socioeconomic status of regular fast food customers... increasing their operating costs will work out to be a tax on the poor to help the poor. Plus there's the risk of increasing automation which could eliminate a lot of jobs rather than cause those workers to be paid more. And so on and so forth. I think some people are so energized by the thought of "demanding more money" that they can't even think about the actual effects of the policies.
 
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