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Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

tererun said:
Sounds like feeling bad to me. Bad is a pretty large umbrella. You are just putting a specific to the feeling.
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In your case it is so large it losses any practical utility.:lamo




And in what way does the dog electrochemically protect his brain? Now you are putting the dog in a place where it does not belong. The dog is not a chemical taken to correct those balances. The dog merely comforts the subject and allows them to procede through their symptoms. The PTSD is still going on. No one has said that having a dog around causes the electrochemical content of the brain to be different.
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I wasn't addressing the dog at the point but I did after this.


That is not actually stopping the attack. That is merely stopping the symptoms.
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No it does not stop the attack.:roll: And it does not stop the symptoms either. What the dog does is alert him that he will have an attack and due to that warning he will be prepaired for the attack and will better manage when the attack occurs.
 
Shadow Serious said:
In your case it is so large it losses any practical utility.:lamo
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Then we get down to when you start specifying problems. All of a sudden we have extreme cases being whipped out like this guy is a psychotic mess who is magically being held together by a dog. For the most part I am agreeing with you. If this guy is that wacked out that he needs a dog to eat breakfast then get the guy a dog, but let us also get him into a supervised facility where someone can try to help him so that he can accomplish eating breakfast without his dog which might be a hardship one might expect to face in this world. If it is not a hardship we have to face, then certainly let us start letting dogs into restaurants right now because this would improve the lives of many pet owners. Seriously, we are not even really asking the guy be able to cook for himself. This guy supposedly cannot sit down and decide what he wants to eat and have it served to him without his dog around. A blind person cannot see. A crippled person cannot use their limbs. This is why they have service dogs. Does the dog at least bring the food to his mouth as this guy is trembling in fear and unable to move? If the dog is physically feeding him when he has a panic attack and cannot do it himself then I am wrong. If the dog is feeding him when he cannot then it is a service dog. Tell me this dog has been trained to do something like feed him, or give him water, or grab something for him, or get him medicine. If the dog does something like that I would punch the restaurant owner in the head myself and tell him to stop being an ass.




Shadow Serious said:
I wasn't addressing the dog at the point but I did after this.



No it does not stop the attack.:roll: And it does not stop the symptoms either. What the dog does is alert him that he will have an attack and due to that warning he will be prepaired for the attack and will better manage when the attack occurs.
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So you are telling us that the dog is not reacting to his behavior patters that indicate the start of an attack, but rather he predicts attacks before they start? I am doomed, now we have a magic psychic dog. Where do i get one of those things because I really would have loved one at the beginning of this exchange to warn me that was coming.
 
tererun said:
How do I know it is a scam? The dog does not do anything. It is a dog. It is not a pill that alters his brain's biochemistry that would calm him like a SSRI or a tranquilizer. The dog also is not a trained psychologist or behavioral therapist. It is a dog. It sits there and drools and perhaps barks. It is not going to talk him down or confront his feelings. In this case it is the same thing that could be accomplished by focusing on any inanimate object. So then it comes down to why have a dog over something like a plushie dog? You can do the same things with a plushie you do with a real dog in his case, and there would be only 2 differences. The first would be the plushie would react in a consistent manner, and the second is that the plushie is not against health codes. So why chose a dog? let us go to the extreme. Why not chose a skunk to do this with? Are we supposed to deal with a skunk because this guy cannot eat breakfast without his pal? No, the method is based upon an object that is not defined. So when you define the object you could put anything in there. So put something you can carry with you so you do not need to deal with this. This makes it a purposeful scam so he can carry his dog with him and skirt the rules. Now whether or not he is conscious of the scam, or he has deluded himself into thinking this is right does not make much difference to me.
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So where did you get your PhD in human biochemistry and psychology from?
 
tererun said:
So you are telling us that the dog is not reacting to his behavior patters that indicate the start of an attack, but rather he predicts attacks before they start? I am doomed, now we have a magic psychic dog. Where do i get one of those things because I really would have loved one at the beginning of this exchange to warn me that was coming.
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The dog may be racting to subtle cues that the vet is experiencing but not an obvious behavior pattern. BTW there are dogs that can alert when a person would have a epileptic seizure. In either case the dog may detect a tremor that is not visably detectable to people or may detect some particular change in breathing or the beat of the heart. It is not known.
 
MadLib said:
Service animals are typically an exception. So long as the dog doesn't go to where food is being prepared, there is nothing illegal in a dog sitting at a restaurant.
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According to state and local laws where this resturant is located, are PTSD dogs exempted? If they're not, the manager was simply covering his ass.
 
Ikari said:
So where did you get your PhD in human biochemistry and psychology from?
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If I told you would you believe me? If you did, are you an idiot to believe something some guy on the internet tells you? However, I will say I am capable of arguing on that level if you wish to show some form of study which shows how a dog acts in the same reliable way as say something like an SSRI. Feel free to go out and prove me wrong. Which I could be even if I had a PhD but do your research.
 
Shadow Serious said:
The dog may be racting to subtle cues that the vet is experiencing but not an obvious behavior pattern. BTW there are dogs that can alert when a person would have a epileptic seizure. In either case the dog may detect a tremor that is not visably detectable to people or may detect some particular change in breathing or the beat of the heart. It is not known.
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but that is the thing, the dog is detecting a change of an attack which has already started. Now i want to get me some of these great reliable dogs which we need to spot a panic attack in a PTSD subject. You know what i am going to do with them? If they can do this magical thing reliably and warn people of a drastic shift in mind like what would be experienced by a PTSD person, I am going to make PMS alarms. Then I am going to hook the dog up to an app which tells the woman's lover to get hagen daaz. Screw this PTSD thing, there are men all over the world who need warning of the mood change of a woman on her period. When that works and men all over the world are saved from her special friend everyone will be ready to accept a dog who is warning about a PTSD fit. I know it is not PMS. Now either I am going to make millions because you know people would buy this, or this is not terribly reliable and the guy feels the attack coming on and uses the dog as a focus.
 
tererun said:
Where did you get that one from? He has the right to do it without legal consequences if it is not within the law. There is no right to not suffer the social consequences of your actions. They are well within their rights to complain, boycott, and make a huge issue out of it, as long as it is true.
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You read that backwards. I saying that until the law is changed this gentleman has the right to bring his dog into restaurants. The moron does NOT have the right to discriminate against him.
 
Tigger said:
You read that backwards. I saying that until the law is changed this gentleman has the right to bring his dog into restaurants. The moron does NOT have the right to discriminate against him.
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I thought I made another post in the confusion. Way back when i wrote that comment I got mixed up in this situation and the one where there were a bunch of blacks tossed out of a chicken place. I agree the law is on the side of the man based on the anti-discrimination laws set down for the handicapped. I think the man is a scammer and is taking from the goodwill of others, but just like a healthy person with a handicapped tag, and people with very questionable disabilities he is milking the system.
 
apdst said:
According to state and local laws where this resturant is located, are PTSD dogs exempted? If they're not, the manager was simply covering his ass.
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Since PTSD dogs are still considered service dogs, business owners still have to let them in.
 
tererun said:
Yeah, because shrinks are not making their own work at this point.
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I probably agree with you about shrinks exaggerating and overdiagnosing some mental illnesses (ADD/ADHD, for example) in order to satisfy their pharmaceutical sponsors. However, I don't think there are massive dog corporations who bribe psychiatrists and psychologists into convincing people that PTSD patients need dogs.
 
Neglecting to care for the PTSD that has sadly afflicted many heroic veterans is something our society should be ashamed of. PTSD is a serious condition and it is a mental illness that should be cared for and recognized compassionately, not mocked or downplayed.
 
tererun said:
Ok, what symptoms are different? In all honesty I have never heard the two have differing symptoms. I am not saying they are the same, but their manifestation on the physical operation of a person overlaps. I am also not talking case by case. Overall possible symptoms for both are pretty close.
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These two are VERY different disorders. Though PTSD can manifest itself with depression, there are lots of other very specific symptoms that are different. Here is the descriptor for PTSD from the DSM:

A: Exposure to a traumatic event This must have involved both (a) loss of "physical integrity", or risk of serious injury or death, to self or others, and (b) a response to the event that involved intense fear, horror, or helplessness (or in children, the response must involve disorganized or agitated behavior). (The DSM-IV-TR criterion differs substantially from the previous DSM-III-R stressor criterion, which specified the traumatic event should be of a type that would cause "significant symptoms of distress in almost anyone," and that the event was "outside the range of usual human experience."[83])

B: Persistent re-experiencing One or more of these must be present in the victim: flashback memories, recurring distressing dreams, subjective re-experiencing of the traumatic event(s), or intense negative psychological or physiological response to any objective or subjective reminder of the traumatic event(s).

C: Persistent avoidance and emotional numbing This involves a sufficient level of:

avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma, such as certain thoughts or feelings, or talking about the event(s);
avoidance of behaviors, places, or people that might lead to distressing memories as well as the disturbing memories, dreams, flashbacks, and intense psychological or physiological distress;
inability to recall major parts of the trauma(s), or decreased involvement in significant life activities;
decreased capacity (down to complete inability) to feel certain feelings;
an expectation that one's future will be somehow constrained in ways not normal to other people.

D: Persistent symptoms of increased arousal not present before These are all physiological response issues, such as difficulty falling or staying asleep, or problems with anger, concentration, or hypervigilance. Additional symptoms include irritability, angry outbursts, increased startle response, and concentration or sleep problems.[18]

E: Duration of symptoms for more than 1 month If all other criteria are present, but 30 days have not elapsed, the individual is diagnosed with Acute stress disorder.[18]

F: Significant impairment The symptoms reported must lead to "clinically significant distress or impairment" of major domains of life activity, such as social relations, occupational activities, or other "important areas of functioning".
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Notice. A triggering event is NECESSARY. This is not true for Major Depression. Here is the descriptor for that diagnosis in the DSM:

Depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). (In children and adolescents, this may be characterized as an irritable mood.)
Markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day
Significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5 of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day.
Insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day
Psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day
Fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day
Feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt nearly every day
Diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day
Recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide.
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As you can see, there are major differences in these two disorders.

Also, you are not addressing the reality that I have accepted and am aware of the difference in depression diagnosis. The reality is that to an extent both depression and PTSD type of feelings are normal.
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No they aren't. Not to the extent that one would be diagnosed with either.

We all deal with issues of being depressed, and we all deal with traumatic experiences which might even cripple us for a time with physical pain. There is a range. What i am saying is that if this guy were in that level where he is not functional which becomes a clinical level of a medical problem he would need more continuous medical attention.
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My guess is that he IS under medical attention, but again, there are many levels of medical attention that one can have.

Think about what I am saying. breakfast is something you do every day and it lasts about an hour at most at a restaurant. That is an hour where the guy needs to be able to sit down and eat food. What you are trying to say is this guy is so severe that within that hour he is going to require the calming capabilities of the dog because he is going to have a debilitating attack he cannot get through on his own. That is a serious problem if that is the case. That sort of person should not be driving on the road. That is the sort of person who we all need to be aware of because that person needs help.
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You are incorrect. This individual IS getting help and is using a coping skill in order to allow him to function far better than he could without the coping skill. He can go to a restaurant and eat breakfast and he can drive. He is using a tool, a coping skill in order to do that. The coping skill is not causing him any harm and it is effective in preventing the requirement of a higher level of care.

I am not saying he is that level. I do not think he is. If that sort of person was around me and needed their dog I would help them get it. I would also recognize that person needs a more controlled environment where they can be helped. If he is not of that level and is perfectly capable of getting through breakfast without a debilitating attack he does not need the dog. It may be a really big want, and it may be extremely stressful for him not to have it, but then he has to alter his behavior and eat at home.
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No, he does not. He is using an effective coping skill to manage his PTSD, allowing him to function better than if he did not use the skill. This is the goal of therapy and the treatment of psychological disorders.
 
tererun said:
Yes, I know it is not black and white, but there is a threshold which not being able to get through breakfast without a freakout would cross. You are talking at the most an hour of eating. People tend to find that sort of thing relaxing even so this is something that should not be a problem with an outpatient.
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And he now has a coping skill that allows him to make it through an hour of eating. Problem solved.

Actually dogs and smoking are banned for similar reasons. Good of you to wander into that one. I can't smoke, but I could take nicotine through gum, transdermal patch, and chewing or snorting. Smoking is just very convenient and also the act of smoking is relaxing like a technique. It is one of the reasons why it is not just as easy as giving a person some nicotine to stop them from smoking. Also there has been therapeutic use of smoking. Really, what you are talking about is something that has altered the mind. PTSD has altered the operation of the mind. If the dog is not mind altering then it isn't doing anything. before you go there I understand how the dog thing works, but I am just pointing out you just trashed your own argument.
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No, I supported my argument and your next to last line in the above trashed yours. In fact, you pretty much admitted it. The use of a service dog is not mind altering BY A SUBSTANCE. Smoking is.

Actually I am not really arguing against the disorder. You guys have been setting up that argument all along. I never said PTSD doesn't exist or that it could not lead to some very traumatic problems. I am saying this guy is full of crap. I know it would be really awesome for you if I were arguing PTSD doesn't exist. I assume that is why everyone keeps going there because suck it up is pretty reasonable with this guy as an individual. While you are putting the entirety of PTSD on trial, I am merely looking at this incident.
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This is YOUR straw man, not mine. I have never argued that you believe that PTSD doesn't exist. I HAVE argued that PTSD and Major Depression are not the same, something that you have claimed. Your belief that this guy "is full of crap" has no standing and you haven't even come close to proving this.

You can try to argue the greater issue of the existence of PTSD, but no one has argued against that. What has been said is you can eat breakfast without your dog if you go to a restaurant if your PTSD and suck it up, and if you cannot get that far you should either not eat out, or check into a place where they can give you the specialized care you require.
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As I said, that is YOUR straw man argument. I have not claimed that you do not believe that PTSD exists. I HAVE claimed that you do not understand how PTSD and Major Depression are different... and followed up with PROVING that you don't know that the two are different my demonstrating how they are. Further, I have also demonstrated how your assessment on what this guy can handle, how, and what this means is completely wrong. In other words, I have demonstrated that you don't know what you are talking about.
 
MadLib said:
Since PTSD dogs are still considered service dogs, business owners still have to let them in.
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Actually, this is a murky area. In the past, PTSD dogs were NOT considered service dogs, but are considered "support" or "comfort" dogs. Because of this, they are excluded from the laws that govern service animals and business owners do NOT have to let them in. However, if the individual has a letter from a licensed psychological provider showing justification, the animal may then be allowed. I have done this for clients on a few occasions.

However, on doing some further research on this, it does appear that a dog can be defined as a service dog in cases of PTSD. There is some very specific training that the dogs go through (key component for the dog to be defined as a service dog). For example, dogs being trained to prevent crowding (something that often triggers a PTSD attack) is one skill that the dog learns. Another is to alert the individual to people coming from behind him.

This is still a murky area, and the research as to the efficacy of service dogs for PTSD is not conclusive. In fact, the VA cut funding for PTSD service dogs about a year ago because of the inconclusive evidence in this area. Doesn't mean that they are not helpful; just means that the research isn't conclusive as of yet.
 
MadLib said:
I probably agree with you about shrinks exaggerating and overdiagnosing some mental illnesses (ADD/ADHD, for example) in order to satisfy their pharmaceutical sponsors. However, I don't think there are massive dog corporations who bribe psychiatrists and psychologists into convincing people that PTSD patients need dogs.
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You haven't heard of the canine-industrial complex!?
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
And he now has a coping skill that allows him to make it through an hour of eating. Problem solved.
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So what if my coping skill is smoking? What if my coping skill is masturbation? If it is just a coping skill then the object used in it needs to be determined to be the only or part of a limited array of objects capable of determining coping. For instance it has been claimed by another the dog senses changes within the person that come before an attack and warns the subject to brace for an attack. Why can't the person simply wear an electronic bio-monitor that can do the same thing and then there is no issue with the health codes? Why can't he use non-health code violating object if all he is doing is using it as a focus? Why does it have to be a dog? Why use a dog in the first place when you know pets are restricted from certain areas? If we are just going to permit the dog why don't we just permit a person to smoke or masturbate as technically neither of those are capable of attacking or biting someone? You are not giving any reason this has to be a dog, where I have given a clear motive for why a scammer would use a dog. A dog is not fully reliable as we have seen some disparity between the claims of accuracy on the part of animals used for purposes like this, and their actual accuracy in prediction and reliable behavior? Let us use Occam's razor here. Which is more probable; Is it that a dog senses attacks and can somehow prevent or lessen their severity better than anything else we already have, or is it that some guy wanted to bring his dog with him and found a shrink that was willing to sign off on a service dog for this purpose?


CaptainCourtesy said:
No, I supported my argument and your next to last line in the above trashed yours. In fact, you pretty much admitted it. The use of a service dog is not mind altering BY A SUBSTANCE. Smoking is.
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Actually no, I did not. Let me finish drawing the picture as I thought the conclusion was obvious. PTYSD is a dysfunction in the electrochemical operations of the brain. Therefor a substance that can correct or level out those changes to a normative state would be physically reliable. The method of using a dog is actually only reliable as a pavlovian response. Pavlovian responses can be altered or lessened by other factors and are therefor less reliable. The basic mechanics of the situation are that the person gains some control over their mental status through the focus on some object and retains control. Essentially giving a person an ability to fopcus and work through the attack. It doesn't actually prevent the attack, nor would it take into account distractions from the focus that could work to make the attack worse if the focus is threatened. For instance this guy has an attack come on, he rtries to do what he does with his dog, an agressor comes over and tries to take the dog or attack him, and the attack gets worse because not only is he dealing with the initial attyack, but an increasing stressor. OTOH a pill which maintains a stabilization of neurochemicals would provide a continued level of attack lowering effect even if there were more stressors because it lowers the threshold of the attack. Not to mention a pill is something you could take without violating health code laws. I may not be allowed to smoke in a restaurant, but I could pop nicotine gum. In effect a mind altering substance that was something similar to things like SSRIs and psych meds would be a preferred alternative that could be applied anywhere and have a standard effect.


CaptainCourtesy said:
This is YOUR straw man, not mine. I have never argued that you believe that PTSD doesn't exist. I HAVE argued that PTSD and Major Depression are not the same, something that you have claimed. Your belief that this guy "is full of crap" has no standing and you haven't even come close to proving this.
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Again, you alter the argument. I have not said they are the same, I said their symptoms overlap, and have implied that service dogs could also be used to treat people with severe depression problems so why don't we start letting the nation of people with diagnosed depression start having their dogs with them. Certainly the causes of both can differ.

CaptainCourtesy said:
As I said, that is YOUR straw man argument. I have not claimed that you do not believe that PTSD exists. I HAVE claimed that you do not understand how PTSD and Major Depression are different... and followed up with PROVING that you don't know that the two are different my demonstrating how they are. Further, I have also demonstrated how your assessment on what this guy can handle, how, and what this means is completely wrong. In other words, I have demonstrated that you don't know what you are talking about.
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You have used extreme cases, but have yet to prove this guy even has one of those. Please do feel free to prove the honesty and reliability of modern day psychology. Please do disprove allegations of overprescription and fraud on behalf of doctors. I have never argued that PTSD does not exist. I have argued that this guy is a scammer, and that the statement that this guy can eat breakfast without his dog is correct. Just because PTSD exists to incapacitating levels does not mean this guy has it. Your logic says that because PTSD exists this guy has it, and that simply is not the case.
 
tererun said:
So what if my coping skill is smoking? What if my coping skill is masturbation?
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I don't respond to absurd analogies. I've already demonstrated that smoking is not analogous to the situation. Masturbation is also not analogous.

If it is just a coping skill then the object used in it needs to be determined to be the only or part of a limited array of objects capable of determining coping. For instance it has been claimed by another the dog senses changes within the person that come before an attack and warns the subject to brace for an attack. Why can't the person simply wear an electronic bio-monitor that can do the same thing and then there is no issue with the health codes? Why can't he use non-health code violating object if all he is doing is using it as a focus? Why does it have to be a dog? Why use a dog in the first place when you know pets are restricted from certain areas?
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The dog has been show to be effective, effective for a number or reasons. If you want to advocate for any of those things, be my guest. We are discussing whether the dog would be effective and if this is reasonable. Both criteria are met. It is up to you to demonstrate that they are not. Comparisons are irrelevant. For example, just because one medication works for an problem, doesn't mean that all other medications that also work should be eliminated.

Try again.

If we are just going to permit the dog why don't we just permit a person to smoke or masturbate as technically neither of those are capable of attacking or biting someone?
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I already told you that I do not debate absurd analogies. So your first point is irrelevant. As to your second point, obviously you don't understand how service dogs are trained. Biting is not an issue.

You are not giving any reason this has to be a dog, where I have given a clear motive for why a scammer would use a dog. A dog is not fully reliable as we have seen some disparity between the claims of accuracy on the part of animals used for purposes like this, and their actual accuracy in prediction and reliable behavior? Let us use Occam's razor here. Which is more probable; Is it that a dog senses attacks and can somehow prevent or lessen their severity better than anything else we already have, or is it that some guy wanted to bring his dog with him and found a shrink that was willing to sign off on a service dog for this purpose?
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I have certainly given reasons why it has to be a dog. Your non-acceptance of these reasons is irrelevant. Your assumption that this individual is a scammer has not basis in reality and you have completely failed to prove it's veracity at every turn. All you have done is make suppositions with no foundation of which they are built.




Actually no, I did not. Let me finish drawing the picture as I thought the conclusion was obvious. PTYSD is a dysfunction in the electrochemical operations of the brain. Therefor a substance that can correct or level out those changes to a normative state would be physically reliable. The method of using a dog is actually only reliable as a pavlovian response. Pavlovian responses can be altered or lessened by other factors and are therefor less reliable. The basic mechanics of the situation are that the person gains some control over their mental status through the focus on some object and retains control. Essentially giving a person an ability to fopcus and work through the attack. It doesn't actually prevent the attack, nor would it take into account distractions from the focus that could work to make the attack worse if the focus is threatened. For instance this guy has an attack come on, he rtries to do what he does with his dog, an agressor comes over and tries to take the dog or attack him, and the attack gets worse because not only is he dealing with the initial attyack, but an increasing stressor. OTOH a pill which maintains a stabilization of neurochemicals would provide a continued level of attack lowering effect even if there were more stressors because it lowers the threshold of the attack. Not to mention a pill is something you could take without violating health code laws. I may not be allowed to smoke in a restaurant, but I could pop nicotine gum. In effect a mind altering substance that was something similar to things like SSRIs and psych meds would be a preferred alternative that could be applied anywhere and have a standard effect.
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Firstly, here you made an absurd example. I do not respond to absurd and massively exceptional examples. They have nothing to do with "the rule". Secondly, you do not seem to understand what a coping skill is. It is far more effective for someone to learn how to manage their anxiety, depression, or whatever by focusing on something and learning how to deal with their psychological distress withOUT substances than with. And lastly, as I said, smoking has harm associated with it.

Again, you alter the argument. I have not said they are the same, I said their symptoms overlap, and have implied that service dogs could also be used to treat people with severe depression problems so why don't we start letting the nation of people with diagnosed depression start having their dogs with them. Certainly the causes of both can differ.
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Now you are just being dishonest:

tererun said:
Depression manifests with the same set of symptoms as PTSD.
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tererun said:
Ok, what symptoms are different? In all honesty I have never heard the two have differing symptoms. I am not saying they are the same, but their manifestation on the physical operation of a person overlaps. I am also not talking case by case. Overall possible symptoms for both are pretty close.
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I posted the symptoms of each, proving that they barely overlap and they are quite different... proving you wrong. You said it. Take responsibility for it. As far as allowing people with depression having services dogs, that is a different argument. Stop making slippery slope logical fallacies.

You have used extreme cases, but have yet to prove this guy even has one of those. Please do feel free to prove the honesty and reliability of modern day psychology. Please do disprove allegations of overprescription and fraud on behalf of doctors. I have never argued that PTSD does not exist. I have argued that this guy is a scammer, and that the statement that this guy can eat breakfast without his dog is correct. Just because PTSD exists to incapacitating levels does not mean this guy has it. Your logic says that because PTSD exists this guy has it, and that simply is not the case.
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You know, I remembered something from last night. You and I have discussed mental illness before.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/153666-why-dont-any-folks-dc-seem-have-any-interest-solving-suicide-issue.html

We debated from about post #54 on. In this thread, I proved that you are very uneducated on mental health, repeatedly demonstrating that you don't know what you are talking about. Your above comments further proven that. You have no substantiation that this guy is a scammer, have proven nothing, have been unable to prove that service dogs do not work, have shown that you don't understand the difference between Major Depression and PTSD, and then LIED about not knowing the difference, don't understand how coping skills work and their efficacy, and you overgeneralize EVERYTHING based on supposition and faulty premises. In other words, as I said in the other thread, you don't know what you are talking about, and in conclusion, your entire argument here has been shown to have no standing, you have proven nothing and your argument is a complete bucket of fail.

Now, do you have anything of substance to add? Because thus far, all you are doing is making me post basic psychological concepts of which you seem to have little knowledge.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
These two are VERY different disorders. Though PTSD can manifest itself with depression, there are lots of other very specific symptoms that are different. Here is the descriptor for PTSD from the DSM:
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OK, let us actually go through this and see where I am wrong.

A: Exposure to a traumatic event This must have involved both (a) loss of "physical integrity", or risk of serious injury or death, to self or others, and (b) a response to the event that involved intense fear, horror, or helplessness (or in children, the response must involve disorganized or agitated behavior). (The DSM-IV-TR criterion differs substantially from the previous DSM-III-R stressor criterion, which specified the traumatic event should be of a type that would cause "significant symptoms of distress in almost anyone," and that the event was "outside the range of usual human experience."[83])
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Depression can be caused by traumatic events. Yes, I am talking about the crippling dignosable type that requires medical treatment. Events like molestation, rape, accidents, fights, abuse, deatyh, and other traumatic experiences can bring about depression without getting a PTSD diagnosis. Now maybe you could argue that is due to the nature of psychological diagnosis, but that only plays into my argument that the prescription of a therapy dog which a person cannot be without is also as flawed. In order to maintain your argument that the diagnosis means he has it you have to maintain the reliability of the person doing the diagnosing. My argument does not have that difficulty.

B: Persistent re-experiencing One or more of these must be present in the victim: flashback memories, recurring distressing dreams, subjective re-experiencing of the traumatic event(s), or intense negative psychological or physiological response to any objective or subjective reminder of the traumatic event(s).
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You mean none of these are present in people with depression? Reliving past events, bad dreams, and negative psychological reactions are all part of massive depression.

C: Persistent avoidance and emotional numbing This involves a sufficient level of:

avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma, such as certain thoughts or feelings, or talking about the event(s);
avoidance of behaviors, places, or people that might lead to distressing memories as well as the disturbing memories, dreams, flashbacks, and intense psychological or physiological distress;
inability to recall major parts of the trauma(s), or decreased involvement in significant life activities;
decreased capacity (down to complete inability) to feel certain feelings;
an expectation that one's future will be somehow constrained in ways not normal to other people.
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Again, this all seems very depression like. Are you telling me avoidance and the inability to feel certain emotions are not part of depression?

D: Persistent symptoms of increased arousal not present before These are all physiological response issues, such as difficulty falling or staying asleep, or problems with anger, concentration, or hypervigilance. Additional symptoms include irritability, angry outbursts, increased startle response, and concentration or sleep problems.[18]
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Again, where am I wrong that this could not be seen in a depressed person?

E: Duration of symptoms for more than 1 month If all other criteria are present, but 30 days have not elapsed, the individual is diagnosed with Acute stress disorder.[18]

F: Significant impairment The symptoms reported must lead to "clinically significant distress or impairment" of major domains of life activity, such as social relations, occupational activities, or other "important areas of functioning".
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As for E no shrink should be giving you any medication for depression that is short term as it is something we go through, and the same could be said for PTSD it seems. Long term and is effecting your life becomes the basis for a diagnosis. You have not pointed out a single thing that differs from depression. Oh, and there might be a reason for that which should have been obvious in the first place. Depression is one of the symptoms of PTSD. So they might overlap like I said. I know you are looking for me to be wrong, but you just did my homework for me.

CaptainCourtesy said:
Notice. A triggering event is NECESSARY. This is not true for Major Depression. Here is the descriptor for that diagnosis in the DSM:
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Considering all of those are in the above descriptions, though they use similar wording your entire argument comes down to that PTSD requires a traumatic event while depressing may just have a traumatic event. So my claim that they are overwhelmingly similar in nature still stands, since I have never said they are identical. Thank you for showing they are very similar just as I have maintained since the start. This is why you will want to base your arguments on what I have said, and not what you wish I have said. You wish I had said they were identical. You have tried to put those words in my mouth. Now please do put the post where I said they were identical. I am sure when you go back and read you will find I have said they are very similar. You are correct, the words you tried to jam in my mouth were wrong, and you did a very good job of proving your words from my mouth were wrong, while also doing my homework and proving they are very similar. Human predictability means that like in the story of huck fin you can get other people to do your dirty work for you if you properly work off their motivations. It would be rude of me not to thank you for the help in doing that research and making those quotes for me to show they are so similar, so thank you. I did not really want to go poking around the DSM for that anyway.


CaptainCourtesy said:
As you can see, there are major differences in these two disorders.
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I would not say that from what you posted. Subtle perhaps, but they are essentially pretty damned similar. You may not wish to admit that, but they overlap quite a bit.

CaptainCourtesy said:
No they aren't. Not to the extent that one would be diagnosed with either.
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Actually the DSM description for both requires that for a clinical diagnosis these things have to be present for a prolonged time, indicating that short term presence of these things is not basis for a diagnosis and therefor can be present in a person who is undergoing normal reactions to life and traumatic events.

CaptainCourtesy said:
My guess is that he IS under medical attention, but again, there are many levels of medical attention that one can have.
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perhaps depending on the severity of the symptoms and effects the condition it has on ones life? Perhaps lending support to my argument that the guy does not need his dog with him for the hour he eats breakfast or else they would have prescribed more severe medical attention like institutionalization? If that were the case then he certainly could abide by the health codes and his dog would be more theraputic rather than a necessity like a service dog is.


CaptainCourtesy said:
You are incorrect. This individual IS getting help and is using a coping skill in order to allow him to function far better than he could without the coping skill. He can go to a restaurant and eat breakfast and he can drive. He is using a tool, a coping skill in order to do that. The coping skill is not causing him any harm and it is effective in preventing the requirement of a higher level of care.
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He is still capable of abiding by health codes. Nothing you have said implies he is incapable of eating his breakfast without the assistance of the animal. A blind person needs a seeing eye dog all the time when he is walking because he is always blind where this person only wants his service dog when he is having an attack, and since the dog does not give him the physical aterations of being able to cope he is capable of dealing with his attacks for that short period without his dog.



No, he does not. He is using an effective coping skill to manage his PTSD, allowing him to function better than if he did not use the skill. This is the goal of therapy and the treatment of psychological disorders.[/QUOTE]
 
tererun said:
OK, let us actually go through this and see where I am wrong.



Depression can be caused by traumatic events. Yes, I am talking about the crippling dignosable type that requires medical treatment. Events like molestation, rape, accidents, fights, abuse, deatyh, and other traumatic experiences can bring about depression without getting a PTSD diagnosis. Now maybe you could argue that is due to the nature of psychological diagnosis, but that only plays into my argument that the prescription of a therapy dog which a person cannot be without is also as flawed. In order to maintain your argument that the diagnosis means he has it you have to maintain the reliability of the person doing the diagnosing. My argument does not have that difficulty.
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As I have stated, you do not understand mental illness. You also do not understand how to diagnose. A traumatic event is NOT REQUIRED for the diagnosis of depression. It IS REQUIRED for the diagnosis of PTSD. Many people who are depressed had no singular traumatic event. There is the difference. Your argument is trashed.

You mean none of these are present in people with depression? Reliving past events, bad dreams, and negative psychological reactions are all part of massive depression.
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These things are NOT REQUIRED for the diagnosis of depression and are NOT always present. It IS REQUIRED for the diagnosis of PTSD and are always present. Many people who are depressed do not have some or many of these symptoms. The negative psychological reactions are consistent with both. There is the difference. Your argument is trashed.

Again, this all seems very depression like. Are you telling me avoidance and the inability to feel certain emotions are not part of depression?
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This comment is dishonest. The focus with the criteria is the traumatic event in regards to avoidance and emotional numbness. There is the difference. Your argument is trashed.

Again, where am I wrong that this could not be seen in a depressed person?
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These symptoms COULD be seen in a depressed person, however, things like the increased startle response is far more likely with PTSD.

As for E no shrink should be giving you any medication for depression that is short term as it is something we go through, and the same could be said for PTSD it seems.
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Incorrect. Though length of time is an issue, SEVERITY is more of an issue.

Long term and is effecting your life becomes the basis for a diagnosis.
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Incorrect. Effecting your life is the basis for diagnosis. "Long term" is your term and your opinion. Most diagnoses are obtained by the distress being present for somewhere between 1-6 months. Depends on the diagnosis.

You have not pointed out a single thing that differs from depression. Oh, and there might be a reason for that which should have been obvious in the first place. Depression is one of the symptoms of PTSD. So they might overlap like I said. I know you are looking for me to be wrong, but you just did my homework for me.
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No, I proved you wrong, completely and totally. I demonstrated the differences. Your non-acceptance does not make them wrong. Your argument has been trashed and you have been proven incorrect. I have demonstrated the difference.

Considering all of those are in the above descriptions, though they use similar wording your entire argument comes down to that PTSD requires a traumatic event while depressing may just have a traumatic event. So my claim that they are overwhelmingly similar in nature still stands, since I have never said they are identical. Thank you for showing they are very similar just as I have maintained since the start. This is why you will want to base your arguments on what I have said, and not what you wish I have said. You wish I had said they were identical. You have tried to put those words in my mouth. Now please do put the post where I said they were identical. I am sure when you go back and read you will find I have said they are very similar. You are correct, the words you tried to jam in my mouth were wrong, and you did a very good job of proving your words from my mouth were wrong, while also doing my homework and proving they are very similar. Human predictability means that like in the story of huck fin you can get other people to do your dirty work for you if you properly work off their motivations. It would be rude of me not to thank you for the help in doing that research and making those quotes for me to show they are so similar, so thank you. I did not really want to go poking around the DSM for that anyway.
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You have been proven dishonest and have been proven wrong. All of your attempts to dismiss the differences have been trashed. Now, you can try all the bluster you want, but bluster does not replace your incorrect statements that are quite obvious. You made a serious error. You probably thought I wouldn't post the actual diagnoses. I did. Trashed your argument. Your equivocating will not help you, not at all.

I would not say that from what you posted. Subtle perhaps, but they are essentially pretty damned similar. You may not wish to admit that, but they overlap quite a bit.
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No, major differences. You may not want to admit that, but I've shown them clearly.

Actually the DSM description for both requires that for a clinical diagnosis these things have to be present for a prolonged time, indicating that short term presence of these things is not basis for a diagnosis and therefor can be present in a person who is undergoing normal reactions to life and traumatic events.
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And the DSM outlines the time required to make these diagnoses. I have no issue with them.

perhaps depending on the severity of the symptoms and effects the condition it has on ones life? Perhaps lending support to my argument that the guy does not need his dog with him for the hour he eats breakfast or else they would have prescribed more severe medical attention like institutionalization? If that were the case then he certainly could abide by the health codes and his dog would be more theraputic rather than a necessity like a service dog is.
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Perhaps if the queen had balls she'd be king. All you have above is supposition based on your own agenda. Nothing of substance.

He is still capable of abiding by health codes. Nothing you have said implies he is incapable of eating his breakfast without the assistance of the animal. A blind person needs a seeing eye dog all the time when he is walking because he is always blind where this person only wants his service dog when he is having an attack, and since the dog does not give him the physical aterations of being able to cope he is capable of dealing with his attacks for that short period without his dog.
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Of course I have indicated why he needs the service dog. Clearly. As I have told you, your non-acceptance is irrelevant to this reality.
 
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