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Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry' [W:245]

Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

Lysander said:
So what would you suggest that white kid do? Not only was he younger he was smaller and out numbered by 3 animals intent on killing him...damn near succeeded at that. They need locked away in prison for the rest of their lives.
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What has happened to some stupid young men's thinking today? Do their parents know what kind of person they are raising? Why not a one-on-one instead of a gang on one? This is bullying carried too far! They are cowards, and although "an eye for an eye" is no longer socially acceptable, it did have a lot going for it as a deterrent, IMO! If the cowards knew the same thing would happen to them as their punishment, I believe it might serve as a warning! :thumbs:

Greetings, Lysander. :2wave:
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

opendebate said:
Is it possible that different kids need different approaches? That what will work with one may actually be destructive for another? From my experience some need a firmer hand than others. Some need new information, guidance and support because too firm a hand is what got them to this place to begin with. It seems to make sense to start with confinement of some type but one that focuses on determining who they are first. Then recommendations can be made. I would suggest involving the parents also, and probation after treatment.
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It's possible, but we have limited resources with which to develop a specialized treatment plan for each child. What many of these kids are lacking is a respect for others and themselves, and a respect for life itself. They need to be taught how to respect and consider the implications of their behaviors first and foremost. This takes a firm guiding hand. What was most likely lacking in their lives was a strong role model in their early childhood. We can't go back and be their mother and father, but we can teach them how to control their impulses.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

opendebate said:
Is it possible that different kids need different approaches? That what will work with one may actually be destructive for another? From my experience some need a firmer hand than others. Some need new information, guidance and support because too firm a hand is what got them to this place to begin with. It seems to make sense to start with confinement of some type but one that focuses on determining who they are first. Then recommendations can be made. I would suggest involving the parents also, and probation after treatment.
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At least you agree that only probation is not enough. ;)
 
j-mac said:
School bus beating suspects appear in court | Fox News Video



You have GOT to be kidding here? The father saying
"I'm sorry for what happened to the victim, but that's just the way it is?" What the hell is that?
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Sorry, but these kids, all three of them should be charged as adults, and serve time.

What say you?
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Being genuinely sorry and saying it is a good first step when you harm someone for no good reason. But it's just the first step, next you need to do all that you can to correct the harm that you did, up to and including spending some time behind bars.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

Gipper said:
1) It's much harder to un-learn a bad behavior than it is to learn one. It's not nearly as easy as "well let's just try to show them the way".

2) Prisons weren't designed to rehabilitate, so your argument is fallacious. Prisons were designed to isolate. They're a place to remove a bad element of society to where it can do little to no more harm.

3) Kids that perform actions like they did in this case are typically unintelligent and incapable of learning from mistakes. This wasn't a borderline assault; they beat that kid like a dog.

I think that most people don't realize that Good Will Hunting was just a movie. Some super-sensitive therapist with a sweater can't talk any street thug into being a redeemable member of society.

Release these kids if you want. Odds are overwhelming that all 3 will be in prison within 3-5 years.
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Oh come on Gip, even I'm not that naive. I understand that and I am not talking about a gentle hand to guide them sweetly toward the light. I am talking about giving them an actual chance by presenting them with information that they probably have not heard and real opportunity to change their lives if THEY chose. Ultimately, they have to chose a better path and if they don't they will continue to suffer worse and worse consequences for their actions. But if we want to have a real impact and redirect as many as possible I believe this would be a more effective option.

I said before, I raised a son and had a house full of boys (most of whom I served as segregate moms too) so I know that boys need to be taught respect and that warm fuzzies alone will drill home that lesson. But you make it sound as if they are incapable of change and I do not buy that. People act out for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with who they are innately. Usually because it is what they have been taught or because of internalized issues.

I know that prisons were not meant to rehab, that is my point. But we do expect them to have learned their lesson (at least all of the white people do) and not do it again when they get out. So the system may not be set up to accomplish it but it is still an expectation.
 
shrubnose said:
Being genuinely sorry and saying it is a good first step when you harm someone for no good reason. But it's just the first step, next you need to do all that you can to correct the harm that you did, up to and including spending some time behind bars.
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That would be great if the kid had said it and not his father saying it in his place.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

opendebate said:
Oh come on Gip, even I'm not that naive. I understand that and I am not talking about a gentle hand to guide them sweetly toward the light. I am talking about giving them an actual chance by presenting them with information that they probably have not heard and real opportunity to change their lives if THEY chose. Ultimately, they have to chose a better path and if they don't they will continue to suffer worse and worse consequences for their actions. But if we want to have a real impact and redirect as many as possible I believe this would be a more effective option.

I said before, I raised a son and had a house full of boys (most of whom I served as segregate moms too) so I know that boys need to be taught respect and that warm fuzzies alone will drill home that lesson. But you make it sound as if they are incapable of change and I do not buy that. People act out for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with who they are innately. Usually because it is what they have been taught or because of internalized issues.

I know that prisons were not meant to rehab, that is my point. But we do expect them to have learned their lesson (at least all of the white people do) and not do it again when they get out. So the system may not be set up to accomplish it but it is still an expectation.
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Okay, let's say I give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's just say.

Here's your chance. I just got a couple of my "boys" together and viciously beat down some kid who dimed me out for slingin'. Set me straight. Say anything you want to me to help me "see the light".

Go.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

lizzie said:
It's possible, but we have limited resources with which to develop a specialized treatment plan for each child. What many of these kids are lacking is a respect for others and themselves, and a respect for life itself. They need to be taught how to respect and consider the implications of their behaviors first and foremost. This takes a firm guiding hand. What was most likely lacking in their lives was a strong role model in their early childhood. We can't go back and be their mother and father, but we can teach them how to control their impulses.
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See this annoys me. You don't know what is lacking in their lives. You are painting everyone with the same brush. You could be right in the majority of cases but then you miss the exceptions and I see them as worth the effort and expense. Compare the cost of housing one in prison for the rest of their lives to individualized treatment.

Why do you think a person ends up having no respect for themselves? What do you think, most often, lies at the heart of violent behavior? I think you are oversimplifying what is going on with them.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

opendebate said:
See this annoys me. You don't know what is lacking in their lives. You are painting everyone with the same brush. You could be right in the majority of cases but then you miss the exceptions and I see them as worth the effort and expense. Compare the cost of housing one in prison for the rest of their lives to individualized treatment.

Why do you think a person ends up having no respect for themselves? What do you think, most often, lies at the heart of violent behavior? I think you are oversimplifying what is going on with them.
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Omg, what I say annoys someone? I'm crushed. ;)

I think they have no respect for themselves, because to have true respect for others, requires that you also have it for yourself. It's an empathy thing. And it isn't overly simplifying things. Human behaviors are generally simple concepts.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

opendebate said:
See this annoys me. You don't know what is lacking in their lives. You are painting everyone with the same brush. You could be right in the majority of cases but then you miss the exceptions and I see them as worth the effort and expense. Compare the cost of housing one in prison for the rest of their lives to individualized treatment.

Why do you think a person ends up having no respect for themselves?
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What do you think, most often, lies at the heart of violent behavior? I think you are oversimplifying what is going on with them.
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What makes you think these 3 have no respect for themselves?
Seems to me they have so much respect for themselves that they believe they're pretty much entitled to do any damn thing they want ... and the coddling they get from the Left helps to reinforce that thinking.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

Gipper said:
Okay, let's say I give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's just say.

Here's your chance. I just got a couple of my "boys" together and viciously beat down some kid who dimed me out for slingin'. Set me straight. Say anything you want to me to help me "see the light".

Go.
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If only it were that simple.

BTW, I am not suggesting holding his witto hand because he is a victim of a bad environment. My mother pounded the "behavior is a choice" mantra into my head far too deep to let anyone off the hook for it. It's re-parenting and empowering, having expectations and accountability. it would take time. But unless someone has a screw loose (think Charles Manson ) I believe they have the potential to make different choices for themselves. Not everyone. But it is worth the effort to redirect those who can be.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

bubbabgone said:
What makes you think these 3 have no respect for themselves?
Seems to me they have so much respect for themselves that they believe they're pretty much entitled to do any damn thing they want ... and the coddling they get from the Left helps to reinforce that thinking.
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I was directing that specifically at a comment made by another poster. I have no idea if these kids respect themselves.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

The problem I’ve always had with “harsh justice” advocates is that sending a person to prison is almost always a fail. Under our current system unless you either lock a person up for life, or impose the death penalty then you are merely postponing the inevitable return of violence.

At the present time all prison sentencing does is throw a bunch of criminals together into a vocational school for crime. Juvenile detention is no different.

Violent criminals need to be punished, but they also need to be weaned away from future violent action and taught to become a functioning member of society.

That doesn’t happen when they are merely sent to prison. Instead, they are subjected to violence from their peers, the need to organize to prevent being subjected to continued violence, and once organized they learn the value of continued use of violence in order to gain their own ends.

Many of us seem to think this is a good thing, a deserved punishment for their acts in our world. Unfortunately, it’s a bad thing because they return to society lessons learned and perpetuate even greater violence.

I think our prison system should be remodeled to make it a true deterrent, punishment, and tool for rehabilitation. The same system should be set up for juvenile offenses. Then I could gladly support sending these kids to juvie for what they did; they deserve it but it being sent there now is only bound to make things worse.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

opendebate said:
If only it were that simple.

BTW, I am not suggesting holding his witto hand because he is a victim of a bad environment. My mother pounded the "behavior is a choice" mantra into my head far too deep to let anyone off the hook for it. It's re-parenting and empowering, having expectations and accountability. it would take time. But unless someone has a screw loose (think Charles Manson ) I believe they have the potential to make different choices for themselves. Not everyone. But it is worth the effort to redirect those who can be.
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As I said - it's infinitely harder to re-learn than it is to learn.

Could the kids be saved? Quite possibly. Would it be worth our time and money? Probably not. Kids like that are more burden than value, because of the time and effort needed. Some people just cannot be reached...and I think anyone who performs deeds this blatant, violent, and malicious - regardless of age - fit that bill.

Everyone wants to be compassionate and demand it from everyone else. Everyone thinks that it's okay to write a blank check for anyone and anything if it "helps". Eventually, reality and fiscal responsibility sets in and you realize that these kids are probably best off six feet under. Hell, probably the parents too.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

bubbabgone said:
What makes you think these 3 have no respect for themselves?
Seems to me they have so much respect for themselves that they believe they're pretty much entitled to do any damn thing they want ... and the coddling they get from the Left helps to reinforce that thinking.
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That is not respect. Respect is understanding what one's limitations are, acting accordingly, and empathizing with others, while also maintaining a certain level of civility.

If I respect myself, I am not likely to do things which will cause harm to myself.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

"Juvie" isn't any less of a vocational school for crime, the conditions are [generally] just less severe. The return of those imprisoned to society comes with a huge red flag on their record. The local police now know who they are, who to watch out for and far less slack is given for "mistakes" or general bad behavior. The overriding message is that we care more about protecting the folks around you than we do your personal journey of rehabilitation.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

opendebate said:
I was directing that specifically at a comment made by another poster. I have no idea if these kids respect themselves.
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Okay ... so you don't buy the "lacking self-respect" argument? ... fine ... it applies to the "something lacking in their lives" argument as well.
We can just bottom line this and simply acknowledge that they've learned that they can avoid their own guilt by exploiting that of Liberal society.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

Captain Adverse said:
The problem I’ve always had with “harsh justice” advocates is that sending a person to prison is almost always a fail. Under our current system unless you either lock a person up for life, or impose the death penalty then you are merely postponing the inevitable return of violence.

At the present time all prison sentencing does is throw a bunch of criminals together into a vocational school for crime. Juvenile detention is no different.

Violent criminals need to be punished, but they also need to be weaned away from future violent action and taught to become a functioning member of society.

That doesn’t happen when they are merely sent to prison. Instead, they are subjected to violence from their peers, the need to organize to prevent being subjected to continued violence, and once organized they learn the value of continued use of violence in order to gain their own ends.

Many of us seem to think this is a good thing, a deserved punishment for their acts in our world. Unfortunately, it’s a bad thing because they return to society lessons learned and perpetuate even greater violence.

I think our prison system should be remodeled to make it a true deterrent, punishment, and tool for rehabilitation. The same system should be set up for juvenile offenses. Then I could gladly support sending these kids to juvie for what they did; they deserve it but it being sent there now is only bound to make things worse.
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So, electro shock. Iam down with it.
Nothing changes behaviour like 10K volts to the temples. LOL
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

lizzie said:
That is not respect. Respect is understanding what one's limitations are, acting accordingly, and empathizing with others, while also maintaining a certain level of civility.

If I respect myself, I am not likely to do things which will cause harm to myself.
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look up the definition of self-respect ... that ain't it.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

CRUE CAB said:
So, electro shock. Iam down with it.
Nothing changes behaviour like 10K volts to the temples. LOL
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... or to the danglers
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

Higgins86 said:
unfortunately I was the one doing a lot of the "whipping" at school as I fancied myself as a bit of a thug and was constantly in trouble. However I grew up and realised the error of my ways and have become a pretty decent member of society. If you don't allow kids to learn from their mistakes we are royally ****ed as a species.
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Learn from gang beating others? Then the learning should be done from behind bars until the victim can make the decision whether or how he wishes to defend himself after reaching the age of majority.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

bubbabgone said:
look up the definition of self-respect ... that ain't it.
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Self respect denotes love and acceptance of oneself. What these boys demonstrated is not love, but hatred. If they had any self-respect, they would not be destructive.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

justabubba said:
while it may be ebonic usage, we know what he meant
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I'll have to disagree. His statement was quite vague.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

lizzie said:
Self respect denotes
love and acceptance of oneself
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. What these boys demonstrated is not love, but hatred. If they had any self-respect, they would not be destructive.
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... sounds like they have an overdose of love for "oneself" and acceptance of whatever "oneself" wants to do.

What they don't have is compassion and empathy.
 
Re: Father of teen charged in Florida school bus beating says son is 'sorry'

bubbabgone said:
... sounds like they have an overdose of love for "oneself" and acceptance of whatever "oneself" wants to do.

What they don't have is compassion and empathy.
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You seem to be confusing love with false pride, which is a product of ego.
 
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