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Tenn. judge changes infant's name from 'Messiah'

Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

Grand Mal said:
Get out. Do you really think a baby's name should be a matter of judicial revue?
Unless your name is Ziggy, Dweezel or Moon Unit you don't have a case.
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Maybe not in general but it's somewhat worthwhile to point out the parents were in court because of the kid's name.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

Peter King said:
Yes, some bullying is normal but with a name like Messiah one can assume/imagine that bullying will be much more often and for longer than normally. Your views about teaching children how to have respect/compassion/tolerance and how to stand up for themselves is how kids were taught 50 to 100 years ago. It is an antiquated way of teaching children valuable life lessons.

And there is no government hack who wants to take opportunities away but who is charged with not unduly negatively torturing a child with a totally in-appropriate name like for example "Methadon Molly" or "Crack-Whore" and names like that. Parents should generally be totally free to name their children but there are boundaries and that has nothing to do with not thinking like a sovereign but with compassion and the right to children to not be punished for the stupidity of parents.
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The children aren't being punished. Their parents are unconventional or stupid or both. In any case they are free in this country to name their children as they wish. Any public official who says or tries to do otherwise ought to be hung from a lamppost and feed the crows.

Your notions of antiquated are just that notions. My families and others methods of raising children have been time honored and tested and with very minor tweaking, work and well at producing self sufficient thinking individuals that can improvise, overcome and adapt to most situations. Not to mention, have a bit of financial success. Knowing how to swim with "sharks" is an essential skill.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

Dapper Andy said:
Maybe not in general but it's somewhat worthwhile to point out the parents were in court because of the kid's name.
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The kids LAST name.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

Peter King said:
Yes, some bullying is normal but with a name like Messiah one can assume/imagine that bullying will be much more often and for longer than normally. Your views about teaching children how to have respect/compassion/tolerance and how to stand up for themselves is how kids were taught 50 to 100 years ago. It is an antiquated way of teaching children valuable life lessons.
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I see why you keep avoiding my question. If you're concerned about ridicule and teasing a name like "Dick" is going to get more ridicule and teasing and bullying than Messiah. So are you for banning the name "Dick" or "Peter"? If not, you don't give a **** about the teasing you just care "messiah" was used and you are against it for RELIGIOUS reasons like the judge.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

PirateMk1 said:
The kids LAST name.
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Yeah.

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that a judge tasked with choosing a last name for this child would recognize the asshole parents gave the kid a ****ty first name and change that too. These assholes wouldn't be standing in front of a judge if they had the whole naming thing down in the first place.

Besides, are we angry that the judge changed his first name or are we angry that the CHRISTIAN judge changed his name? Would we be having this same conversation if instead of issuing the whole "only one Messiah" stuff the judge merely said "not only could you two assholes not agree on a last name but the first name you came up with was horrible, therefore I'm changing that too to something that won't make him the butt of jokes for the rest of his life"? This probably wouldn't have made the nightly news if that were the case.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

Buster Hymen.

That was a real name.
 
Zyphlin said:
Here's the thing...

If the Judge hadn't gone on about the "there's only one messiah" type of talk, I'd still think it was incredibly done but not be as over the top baffled by it because I do think in extreme circumstances where it's reasonable to believe the quality of a childs life will be significantly hindered due to the parents name.

However you'd be hard pressed to suggest to me "messiah" would fall in the realm of "Nigger" or "Arian Nation" or "Suck My Dick".

But the bigger issue is that through the statement the judge made it clear the ruling was being made, in part, on religious grounds and reasonings. That makes the very questionable decision become one that's beyond excusing.
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The judge has rocks in her noggin. Her ruling violates the Establishment Clause. If its appealed it'll likely be shot down.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

Dapper Andy said:
Yeah.

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that a judge tasked with choosing a last name for this child would recognize the asshole parents gave the kid a ****ty first name and change that too. These assholes wouldn't be standing in front of a judge if they had the whole naming thing down in the first place.

Besides, are we angry that the judge changed his first name or are we angry that the CHRISTIAN judge changed his name? Would we be having this same conversation if instead of issuing the whole "only one Messiah" stuff the judge merely said "not only could you two assholes not agree on a last name but the first name you came up with was horrible, therefore I'm changing that too to something that won't make him the butt of jokes for the rest of his life"? This probably wouldn't have made the nightly news if that were the case.
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I could give a damn about what the judges religion was. The asshole way overstepped her bounds. She has no business ruling on the APPROPIATENESS of the given name of that child or any other. No judge has ANY right to change the name of a child unless so asked by parents, or other lawful guardians to do so and ONLY in the context of that request as these parents were doing. In this case they wanted a ruling on the last name.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

Mason66 said:
What would the parents have called him for short?

You know like Billy for Bill

Messy for Messiah???
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Si. Or Siah.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

Serenity said:
This seems hard to believe. Still, can't wait for the Onion article covering this. Heading titled, "He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"
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or...

Messiah drowns. Couldn't walk on water.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

roguenuke said:
This judge should go. There is no way that she should have changed the kid's first name. It was absolutely not her place.

I personally like the name Messiah. I don't know what everyone's problem is with it. And most children would not care. Those that would need to learn not to be so easily offended.

It can't be any worse than "Apple" or "Sage Moonblood" or "Tu Morrow". (In fact, I've teased my brothers that one of them should name their child "Mercedes" because of our family name.) Or how about any of these real baby names from last year?

http://www.today.com/moms/har****-abass-worst-real-baby-names-6C10141004
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I like the name Messiah, too. And I don't think it's a name that kids would bully, either. It's a name (or title) that is revered ...as the judge herself obviously believed.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

TheNextEra said:
So do we then produce a list of names we can't name a child? Who maintains or decides what is on that list. And who's moral standpoint do we use?

I agree that the names you listed are inappropriate, but "messiah" hardly falls under that list. I happen to think Naming kids after cars or seasons is stupid as well, should my thought trump a parents rights?

Are we now going to exclude people naming their children Mohammad or Jesus?
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I think we leave it to common sense, personally - I appreciate that many parents wouldn't know common sense if it smacked them upside the head, but leave it to parents to decide but I see no reason why a court, as a guardian of a child's rights, can't step in some times and give the parents the legal equivalent of a smack upside the head. We don't need a government mandated list of appropriate names, we just need parents who aren't high on crack when they fill out the birth certificate forms.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

This reminds me of a story not too long about about parents who named their child Adolf Hitler, and others with the names of prominent Nazi officials. Personally, I don't have a problem with the name "Messiah" other than that the parents are morons for naming their child that, and it's a stupid name IMO.

Heath Campbell, Nazi Father Of Child Named Adolf Hitler, Fights For Custody Of Heinrich Hons
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

CanadaJohn said:
I think we leave it to common sense, personally - I appreciate that many parents wouldn't know common sense if it smacked them upside the head, but leave it to parents to decide but I see no reason why a court, as a guardian of a child's rights, can't step in some times and give the parents the legal equivalent of a smack upside the head. We don't need a government mandated list of appropriate names, we just need parents who aren't high on crack when they fill out the birth certificate forms.
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In a custody dispute, and believe you me, I know all about custody law (*At least in NY State) the child is appointed a law guardian, or now called lawyer for the child. It is the "role" of the law guardian to represent the rights and wishes of the child within the confines of the law, and what's in the best interest of said child. In the case of a 7 month old, this becomes a bit of a burden, but it is possible that there is a whole lot more going on here with squabbling parents that is not being reported, and the guardian has first hand knowledge of it, and that's why he/she recommended the name be changed. The court referee (Judge) cannot rule on something that is not specifically asked for. My guess (and it's just a guess) is that Mom wants to stick it to Dad, or Dad wants to stick it to Mom, and the guardian was having none of it, and the judge agreed.


Tim-
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

PirateMk1 said:
I am old school when it comes to children in that they are essentially property till they reach the age of majority. After that they the children do as they please change their names and tell their parents to go to hell. Till then the parents have essentially absolute authority with VERY little area of interference by government and then only if it's criminal activity or life or death. Anything other as far as I am concerned is verboten. I wouldn't tolerate interference that's for damned sure. That's bring out the artillery time and go to war, no quarter expected or granted. You don't interfere with the raising of children without EXCEPTIONAL reason. The governments notion of proper raising of children has changed over the years. One should not be subject to fads or notions when it comes to child rearing.
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I find it hard to disagree with you here, but I still am not upset that a judge would look to protect the interests of the child, particularly where two parents are already fighting over a name.

I have a little trouble with the children as chattle argument, but then again the state determines that parents are totally responsible for the care and upbringing of a child and its behaviour up to age 18 so with responsibility should also come autonomy to act. But, then, we don't allow parents to excessively discipline children anymore, so there are limits.

I wouldn't mind if there was an easier, less costly way for a child to change his/her given names once they reach the age of maturity/majority. Just as you can bring back a lousy present your parents give you on your birthday, why can't you easily return the second gift they gave you, after they gave you life.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

Hicup said:
In a custody dispute, and believe you me, I know all about custody law (*At least in NY State) the child is appointed a law guardian, or now called lawyer for the child. It is the "role" of the law guardian to represent the rights and wishes of the child within the confines of the law, and what's in the best interest of said child. In the case of a 7 month old, this becomes a bit of a burden, but it is possible that there is a whole lot more going on here with squabbling parents that is not being reported, and the guardian has first hand knowledge of it, and that's why he/she recommended the name be changed. The court referee (Judge) cannot rule on something that is not specifically asked for. My guess (and it's just a guess) is that Mom wants to stick it to Dad, or Dad wants to stick it to Mom, and the guardian was having none of it, and the judge agreed.


Tim-
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We have the same independent legal office here, established to protect the interests of a minor, and I see it as a good thing. Children should not be used in disputes between parents or between parents and the government.
 
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Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

CanadaJohn said:
I find it hard to disagree with you here, but I still am not upset that a judge would look to protect the interests of the child, particularly where two parents are already fighting over a name.

I have a little trouble with the children as chattle argument, but then again the state determines that parents are totally responsible for the care and upbringing of a child and its behaviour up to age 18 so with responsibility should also come autonomy to act. But, then, we don't allow parents to excessively discipline children anymore, so there are limits.

I wouldn't mind if there was an easier, less costly way for a child to change his/her given names once they reach the age of maturity/majority. Just as you can bring back a lousy present your parents give you on your birthday, why can't you easily return the second gift they gave you, after they gave you life.
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They were doing the typical divorced or separated parent thing and fighting over what last name the kid was going to have. Like I said the judge went way over the boundaries. Its one thing if its life and limb or criminal abuse, it entirely another with a name. Last I checked we still live in a free country. Though of late it seems less and less so.

I agree if a kid wants to change their name when they hit age of majority it should be fairly simple and cheap, if not free.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

CanadaJohn said:
We have the same independent legal office here, established to protect the interests of a minor, and I see it as a good thing. Children should not be used in desputes between parents or between parents and the government.
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Agreed wholeheartedly, now if I could just get my ex wife to see it that way, my stress would go down immensely. ;)

Now, that all said, and although I see the wisdom of having a lawyer for the child's interests, it is disproportionately one-sided. Most of these lawyers are fresh out of law school, working for legal aid, or failed lawyers. The cookie-cutter mentality of the family court in this country is pathetically in favor of the mother. Short of catching the Mother with a needle in her arm, courts almost always side with the Mother in these cases. My advice to would be Dads facing divorce with minor children. Document everything, record everything and anytime you have contact with your ex. It has saved me on numerous occasions from a lying, and all too willing legal system designed to support mothers.




Tim-
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

PirateMk1 said:
They were doing the typical divorced or separated parent thing and fighting over what last name the kid was going to have. Like I said the judge went way over the boundaries. Its one thing if its life and limb or criminal abuse, it entirely another with a name. Last I checked we still live in a free country. Though of late it seems less and less so.

I agree if a kid wants to change their name when they hit age of majority it should be fairly simple and cheap, if not free.
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That's all true, but when parents can't agree, the court is their only option outside of mediation. My experience is that mediation is for parents that mostly agree on how to raise their children, and is pretty much useless for parents bent on winning despite the best interests of their children. In that case, the court is the ultimate decider of children's fates, and like it or not, that is the way it is. This is why if you go into court, you'd better have the more compelling argument, and if you're the Dad, you better be rock solid not only philosophically, but legally precedent.


Tim-
 
Gaius46 said:
The judge has rocks in her noggin. Her ruling violates the Establishment Clause.
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At worst, the judge failed to properly apply/interpret the law; she didn't violate the Establishment Clause.
 
Taylor said:
At worst, the judge failed to properly apply/interpret the law; she didn't violate the Establishment Clause.
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“The word Messiah is a title and it’s a title that has only been earned by one person and that one person is Jesus Christ,” Judge Ballew said....


This is pretty clearly a religion based argument and as such violates the Establishment Clause.

Her second argument about the bullying isn't much better, especially how popular Messiah seems to be as a name - at least according to the article..
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

PirateMk1 said:
The children aren't being punished. Their parents are unconventional or stupid or both. In any case they are free in this country to name their children as they wish. Any public official who says or tries to do otherwise ought to be hung from a lamppost and feed the crows.

Your notions of antiquated are just that notions. My families and others methods of raising children have been time honored and tested and with very minor tweaking, work and well at producing self sufficient thinking individuals that can improvise, overcome and adapt to most situations. Not to mention, have a bit of financial success. Knowing how to swim with "sharks" is an essential skill.
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You try being called Messiah. Honored and tested or just antiquated and outdated? I am not so sure that bullying and things like that build character. You can build character by not allowing bullying, healthy competition and positive re-enforcement of acceptable behavior. You are free to believe what you want and I will do the same. I just think that more modern education methods do not need bullying, shark swimming and things like that.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

Hicup said:
That's all true, but when parents can't agree, the court is their only option outside of mediation. My experience is that mediation is for parents that mostly agree on how to raise their children, and is pretty much useless for parents bent on winning despite the best interests of their children. In that case, the court is the ultimate decider of children's fates, and like it or not, that is the way it is. This is why if you go into court, you'd better have the more compelling argument, and if you're the Dad, you better be rock solid not only philosophically, but legally precedent.


Tim-
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All true. Cant disagree with much. Maybe a quibble here or there. Meh.
 
Re: Tennessee Judge orders baby's name be changed from 'Messiah'

Peter King said:
You try being called Messiah. Honored and tested or just antiquated and outdated? I am not so sure that bullying and things like that build character. You can build character by not allowing bullying, healthy competition and positive re-enforcement of acceptable behavior. You are free to believe what you want and I will do the same. I just think that more modern education methods do not need bullying, shark swimming and things like that.
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I have been called much worse and I have been bullied. That's how I learned to stand up for myself. I have had more ass kicking's then I care to count. Now that I think about, I don't think I EVER prevailed in a fight as just survived. But not but ONE bully came back for seconds, and none came back for thirds. I don't think we will agree. I guess some of us "mericans" are just backwards.
 
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