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Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

calamity said:
Problem is wingnuts are so far gone they think anyone believing that global warming is real and that terrorists plots to destroy America are not is considered a bleeding heart liberal. And, if you think that people should have access to affordable healthcare and a right to collectively bargain, you're downright a Commie. So, of course a Centrist appears to them to be on the Far Left.
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So then ... just to level-set ... from your list ... we have ...

  1. GW
  2. Islamofacism seeking to destroy the West
  3. Obamacare
  4. Unions

Where do you stand on those?
 
Mycroft said:
Oh, liberals like calamity (he's a liberal...even if he does call himself a centrist) ...
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You're not kidding.
Easy to spot but I'm still uncertain whether they all know it themselves.
But I'm thinking ... yeah, they really know it but they think calling themselves "Centrist" gives them some kind of broodingly pensive cachet.
 
jonny5 said:
2. single payer healthcare is socialist because it operates on a system where the rich pay more for the same service (and then dont use it because they pay for better private care anyway), so its wealth redistribution. and since the govt heavily regulates healthcare under this system (and owns most of the hospitals), its effectively govt control of production
3. ACA is a step towards single payer - duh
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Single payer doesn't necessitate that government owns the hospitals, employes the doctors and makes the drugs. Fundamentally, single payer is merely a payment conduit. Furthermore, if your sole real measure of socialism is regulation, then banks are Socialist as they're heavily regulated. Insurance as well. Frankly anything that's "heavily" (whatever that means) is therefore Socialist. Furthermore, single payer can incorporate private insurance within it and any extras are supplemental, thus suggesting that the rich won't do what you claim.

People need to stop defining words as they please and start using the words as they actually mean.
 
jonny5 said:
Which is why I dont support majority rule. Or even 60% majorities. Significant changes should have nearly unanimous support, not just one party support.
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California shows this doesn't work. Super majorities can be disrupted by a relative few people. Your idea only works if everyone is rational and everyone doesn't have ulterior motives that cause them to prioritize their own beneficial gains over the objective evidence. Thus, your idea is essentially as effective as Communism.
 
bubbabgone said:
You're not kidding.
Easy to spot but I'm still uncertain whether they all know it themselves.
But I'm thinking ... yeah, they really know it but they think calling themselves "Centrist" gives them some kind of broodingly pensive cachet.
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I really like "broodlingly pensive cachet". I just figured they hate everybody equally, including themselves. I'm learning.
 
Deuce said:
Speaking of low information voters, you sure have bought the right-wing fearmongering regarding how single-payer works!
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Ok, so how do the incentives in single payer work? You can start by explaining exactly how doctors, when paid by the government, will still work hard and long to keep their patients healthy.

Can you show us examples of how that works?
 
Redress said:
:prof Attacking what you say is not a personal attack...
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I am truly sorry that you feel it necessary to continue to take this line. Not once in this thread have you even approached addressing anything I have posted, yet your truly bitchy approach to me and others is not without notice. Just save yourself the energy in posting to me anymore, for I will not answer unless you have something to actually debate, and in a civil way....Have a nice day.
 
bubbabgone said:
So then ... just to level-set ... from your list ... we have ...

  1. GW
  2. Islamofacism seeking to destroy the West
  3. Obamacare
  4. Unions

Where do you stand on those?
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1. GW obviously is real and happening at a rapid pace
2. Islamofascism is about as much of a threat to the West as gout. It's an annoyance. Period.
3. I prefer Single Payer, universal healthcare.
4. Depends. Some aspects of unions are good; others not so much.
 
LowDown said:
How would government involvement in the water supply of small towns have changed the fact that they had water shortages during a drought? Where does government get the water? The moon?
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I believe the water was all extracted to feed the oil industry. Drought made the situation worse.
 
calamity said:
1. GW obviously is real and happening at a rapid pace
2. Islamofascism is about as much of a threat to the West as gout. It's an annoyance. Period.
3. I prefer Single Payer, universal healthcare.
4. Depends. Some aspects of unions are good; others not so much.
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So how do you see those as "Centrist" ideals?
 
j-mac said:
So how do you see those as "Centrist" ideals?
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1 & 2 are simply common sense facts.
3 is subject to debate, but it works well in Western Europe, Japan and Taiwan---none of which are exactly socialist states.
4. is also factual, and a rather neutral position.
 
calamity said:
1 & 2 are simply common sense facts.
3 is subject to debate, but it works well in Western Europe, Japan and Taiwan---none of which are exactly socialist states.
4. is also factual, and a rather neutral position.
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I disagree, well, with 1&2 anyway....
 
LowDown said:
Ok, so how do the incentives in single payer work? You can start by explaining exactly how doctors, when paid by the government, will still work hard and long to keep their patients healthy.

Can you show us examples of how that works?
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This is how it doesn't work. And nobody got fired for it, either. Even after four years, it still outrages me that this could happen to any child in this country.
 
joG said:
I find it very hard to judge Obamacare's implications. It is just too much legal verbiage and I have not seen any economic modelling.

I have looked at different systems and must say, that the USA has been paying rather a lot per head with not really terrific results on averages. I compared Germany as the archetype social system at one point with the US as the other end of the spectrum. I was surprised by some of the results.
The US spends almost double, what Germany does per head of the population, when you add public and private spending together. When you consider the number of insured the US social system spends much more per head on the poor and aged than Germany.
The German system also has lower quality (so say a number of well placed doctors in Germany like a friend, who runs a very large university hospital complex and another, who runs the pediatric hospital at another university) medical treatment in most areas. If you want top treatment go to Switzerland or the US. So they tell me.
Another problem, I am told, is with MRSA. It is worse than in the States and in fact with 30.000 deaths a year is so bad, that you cannot easily transfer patients from a German public hospital to a Dutch one, because Holland does not want the risk that entails.
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I know Germany. Germany's healthcare system sucks.

I've posted an article here from Der Spiegel a couple times where the MD talks openly about the need to ration. The system is broke, like typical socialist schemes.

A friend of mine left Germany because he didn't make money. He was barely managing. He went to Switzerland, and has a booming practice.

One question. What has government ever done that is complex and efficient?
 
j-mac said:
I disagree, well, with 1&2 anyway....
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1. Can easily be seen by looking at the retreating ice packs and glaciers.
2. The Islamists have nothing. Beyond the occasional nuisance bombing, they can't touch us, other then invoke in us fear with which we then destroy ourselves. Already they are winning that game.
 
calamity said:
1. Can easily be seen by looking at the retreating ice packs and glaciers.
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Here's the thread for that discussion:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...may-play-significant-role-global-w-478-a.html

2. The Islamists have nothing. Beyond the occasional nuisance bombing, they can't touch us, other then invoke in us fear with which we then destroy ourselves. Already they are winning that game.
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So you don't care if American's get killed eh...Nice of you to decide for others like that.
 
j-mac said:
Here's the thread for that discussion:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...may-play-significant-role-global-w-478-a.html
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I didn't say why the globe was warming, I said I can easily see that is is warming. The why is up for debate.


So you don't care if American's get killed eh...Nice of you to decide for others like that.
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Ah jeez. People get killed everyday--30,000 of them on the highways each year. Don't be a ninny. The numbers killed by terrorists over the past 15 years wouldn't even fill a highschool gym.
 
humbolt said:
I really like "broodlingly pensive cachet". I just figured they hate everybody equally, including themselves. I'm learning.
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... ya know ... it could be that simple.
 
calamity said:
I didn't say why the globe was warming, I said I can easily see that is is warming. The why is up for debate.
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Doesn't matter, I gave you the thread.

Ah jeez. People get killed everyday--30,000 of them on the highways each year. Don't be a ninny. The numbers killed by terrorists wouldn't even fill a highschool gym.
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What? What's the matter with you?! *shakes head*
 
obvious Child said:
End care is not the same thing. TRICARE includes a healthcare option where you go to a government hospital, see a government doctor, and get government own drugs. The means of production of healthcare is government owned. MEDICARE doesn't have this.

If people were actually afraid of Socialized Healthcare, they'd be first calling to turn TRICARE entirely private. You don't see this. Because they're hypocrites. Or stupid. Or ignorant.
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My parents had TRICARE. They never went to a government hospital or saw a government doctor, as they had prior to TRICARE. Their expenses were all covered by Medicare as primary, TRICARE as secondary.
 
calamity said:
1. GW obviously is real and happening at a rapid pace
2. Islamofascism is about as much of a threat to the West as gout. It's an annoyance. Period.
3. I prefer Single Payer, universal healthcare.
4. Depends. Some aspects of unions are good; others not so much.
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And those are Centrist positions?
 
bubbabgone said:
Not new news.
Everyone remember?
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Thanks for the reminder. But really now... how often did the press run with this? If you google it you get what... 5 hits?

It was obvious this was a stepping stone, but it's nice to hear Libs fess up. Too bad they can't do things openly and honestly and let the people decide. OH! But they did. MA sent Scott Brown to town in none other than Dead Kennedy's seat to stop ObamaKare. What happened? Dirty tricks. They shoved ObamaKare... a monstrosity, a total mess down the throats of the country, and against the will of the people.

"Have to pass the bill to know what's in it"? How nice. They think they're Santa Claus and we're children.
 
wbcoleman said:
My parents had TRICARE. They never went to a government hospital or saw a government doctor, as they had prior to TRICARE. Their expenses were all covered by Medicare as primary, TRICARE as secondary.
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So? I never said TRICARE as a whole as Socialized. I said part of TRICARE was. You have an option to use totally socialized medicine under TRICARE and people do. My Uncle gets all his healthcare that way. Goes down to the military base, goes to a military hospital, sees a military doctor, so on and so forth.
 
calamity said:
I believe the water was all extracted to feed the oil industry. Drought made the situation worse.
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I see, so the government should have destroyed the oil economy of the region to save the water supply. No doubt there'd be no one there to use the water in that case.
 
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