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Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

No, it doesn't.
Oh please you're just splitting hairs trying to prove your "prowess".

'NSA agents'? The odd use of terms would leave me to believe you don't get this: certain people get access to 'raw SIGINT'. Not many, but they're not particularly high-ranking or anything. It's people doing a certain job. They can query a database and there's a lot of options. But they only have the legal power to go after certain targets. It has nothing to do with IT access. Zero. If they query something they shouldn't, it pops up and they're ****ed. Well, actually everything they query comes up, but you know what I mean.

Again you're trying to prove yourself. You talk about authorization in an inconsistent manner. You say some need it to access raw SIGINT data to do their job, fine, that's business as usual. Then you say "people", anyone? can query a database but if they query the wrong thing they get flagged after the fact? That's kind of strange, why would they do that? Does the system routinely audit itself and filter keywords that are association outliers and then redact prior authorization and file a report? Why wouldn't it filter before and deny access? What are the key business rules that dictate the data access and auditing?
 
If I don't think he is paying attention I will support his opponent. One very important reason why democracies fail is that we stop sending men and women with integrity to occupy those temporary offices.

His opponent will probably feel the same way. Sorry?
 
Oh please you're just splitting hairs trying to prove your "prowess".

No, I'm not.

Again you're trying to prove yourself.

I don't need to prove myself.

You talk about authorization in an inconsistent manner. You say some need it to access raw SIGINT data to do their job, fine, that's business as usual. Then you say "people", anyone? can query a database but if they query the wrong thing they get flagged after the fact? That's kind of strange, why would they do that?

Why wouldn't it?

Does the system routinely audit itself and filter keywords that are association outliers and then redact prior authorization and file a report? Why wouldn't it filter before and deny access? What are the key business rules that dictate the data access and auditing?

No. There's an oversight manager for everyone.

This isn't IT. It's not close to the same thing.
 
Right. Which begs the question of why you responded to me when I told verax that IT wasn't SIGINT.
What I recall is a "snot-nosed" statement along the lines of "I don't think you know what sigint is."

I was responding to your "superior" attitude. Usually bullies are small, insecure people.
 
As with nuclear weapons, Pandora's box has been opened. What can we do about it? We can change laws, defund programs, and demand more transparency and oversight. For any of these efforts to be worthwhile, we need to restrict commercial information gathering as well as governmental activity. These political and legal changes are worth doing and might help, but I doubt these privacy protection efforts will be enforceable and effective over the long term.

There are two other strategies to consider:

1. Stop using technology that enables information gathering. The downside is losing all the convenience, efficiency and entertainment that these devices offer.

2. Sabotage the systems.

I'm not advocating anything illegal, violent or destructive, but there are several legal ways surveillance-state opponents could disrupt information gathering by jamming the system with inaccurate and excessive information.

Tactics might include:

  • They can act suspicious. What if every surveillance opponent in the world made a point of doing searches and visiting websites that are likely to trigger government suspicion? If everyone does it, then there is no useful information to be obtained by monitoring such activity.
  • Whenever practical and legal, they can put inaccurate information in their internet forms. For example, while it is still legal, you can give Facebook inaccurate data. In my opinion, it is foolish to give accurate information to any website unless you have a reason to do so.
  • They can also create new meanings or uses for words that are likely to trigger government suspicion. If everyone decide to use the word "Al Qeda" to mean "thank you" in their e-mail, cell phone and online messages, it would make that trigger useless.
  • They can send messages that appear to be encrypted, but aren't, or encrypt banal or bogus messages. Make them waste time trying to decode them.
  • When they go out in public, they can wear a disguise. They can all start wearing veils and masks, point laser pointers at video cameras, stage bogus suspicious activities, and publicize the location and type of surveillance systems.

The possibilities are endless.

The downside of this tactic is that it will allow terrorists and criminals to slip through these "protections" also. It is a choice to accept risk of attacks and crime in return for our human rights. What is more important: safety or freedom?
 
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What I recall is a "snot-nosed" statement along the lines of "I don't think you know what sigint is."

I was responding to your "superior" attitude. Usually bullies are small, insecure people.

lol?

This was the exchange:

I don't think you understand what IT is.

I know you don't understand what SIGINT is, though.

So why did you feel the need to respond to my attitude but not his? Is he small and insecure, too? lol Nice try, buddy. He attempted to tell me that SIGINT was part of IT. It's not even close. Even you should know that. Now why did only one person's attitude pique your interest? Hmmmm.
 
If that is the case then the system is broken and needs to be swept away.

You don't get to spy on me just because you can and you want to.

Ah. Of course. If you disagree with something, that means it's broken. Perfect logic. I thought you weren't going to deal with me?
 
Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records | Fox News

So how do you feel about this? Do you think that this dragnet that ensnares us all is necessary and just? How about Constitutional? Does it make you feel safer? What is the natural progression from here?

It really does not matter at all to me.

First of all, the amount of information that exists to be tapped into is so great, no one computer could possibly contain it.

Second of all, even if there existed a computer that could contain all information for all internet users, it would be virtually impossible to process it into any kind of meaningful data to do anything with it. In essence, if you are concerned with your privacy you may even WANT this type of program to exist because it would be so ineffective that the amount of information gathered would cover any useful or personal information that would be gathered on any one individual. Now, what could be concerning is the targeted use of this technology, and not the blanket use of it. There does need to be a process in which those who use this technology must provide a lawful reason to do so. Saying this, I think we can conclude that the majority of us would never be effected by the use of this technology. Why would anyone use this technology against someone when the information gathered is of no use at all. Which is the category the vast majority of us are in. I am not sure where much of this fear comes from, where someone may use this technology to find out that your cheating on your wife or husband. Or that maybe you watch beastiality porn on the internet. Or that you were secretly rooting for the Steelers while all your friends were Ravens fans. For the most part, the vast majority of us live a life that is really not interesting enough for anyone to care to spy on us. No one really cares about the conversation you had with your mother-in-law over the phone about family matters. No one really cares about your fetish for S&M and all those S&M websites you visit. No one really cares about your religious trips to starbucks to start out the day before work. On the whole, 99.999999% of the information that could be gathered by a system that tracks every internet users use online, or phone conversations, or by your out and about errands are useless. Saying that, I really don't understand why people are being so alarmist about such a thing.
 
The people they voted into office did. That's the way this system of governance works. If you don't like this system, you can try to change it or move.

You didn't answer the question: So U.S. citizens want to be spied on by their government?

I don't care, in this exact instance, what the representatives want but instead, normal every day Americans. Do they want their government spying on them?
 
No, I'm not.



I don't need to prove myself.



Why wouldn't it?



No. There's an oversight manager for everyone.

This isn't IT. It's not close to the same thing.

So anyone with access can run around and do anything. Then an "oversight manager" will take a look at what they've been doing and decide if any of it is inappropriate? Really? This can't... really... be. how they do it? That is crazy sloppy and prone for recklessness. Why on earth would they not code rules...?? Come on you have to be making this up.

Anyone such as Snowden has the whole spying system at their fingertips and only after the fact does anyone notice what happened? That's retarded.

I call bull sh1t.
 
It really does not matter at all to me.

First of all, the amount of information that exists to be tapped into is so great, no one computer could possibly contain it.

Second of all, even if there existed a computer that could contain all information for all internet users, it would be virtually impossible to process it into any kind of meaningful data to do anything with it. In essence, if you are concerned with your privacy you may even WANT this type of program to exist because it would be so ineffective that the amount of information gathered would cover any useful or personal information that would be gathered on any one individual. Now, what could be concerning is the targeted use of this technology, and not the blanket use of it. There does need to be a process in which those who use this technology must provide a lawful reason to do so. Saying this, I think we can conclude that the majority of us would never be effected by the use of this technology. Why would anyone use this technology against someone when the information gathered is of no use at all. Which is the category the vast majority of us are in. I am not sure where much of this fear comes from, where someone may use this technology to find out that your cheating on your wife or husband. Or that maybe you watch beastiality porn on the internet. Or that you were secretly rooting for the Steelers while all your friends were Ravens fans. For the most part, the vast majority of us live a life that is really not interesting enough for anyone to care to spy on us. No one really cares about the conversation you had with your mother-in-law over the phone about family matters. No one really cares about your fetish for S&M and all those S&M websites you visit. No one really cares about your religious trips to starbucks to start out the day before work. On the whole, 99.999999% of the information that could be gathered by a system that tracks every internet users use online, or phone conversations, or by your out and about errands are useless. Saying that, I really don't understand why people are being so alarmist about such a thing.

(Sorry folks, this is a repeat post, but apparently Capster 78 did not read it since it addresses most of his questions and assertions)

I recently did a search on Google for a particular type of product and now I see adverts for that type of product popping up on various websites that are not related to that product or connected to Google directly. Now thousands of people may know about my interest in that product. Many of those people probably also know about my interest in other types of products and other interests as revealed by my history of Google searches, the YouTube videos I watched, my Facebook activity, and at least some of the other websites I visit. Someone with access to just my Google database can know more about me than my brother knows.

The government can access that same info and combine it with my telephone and utilitiy records, e-mail history, property records, criminal record, driver's license and vehicle registration info, public school records, social security and tax records. Much of that information is accessible by anyone. (as seen by the targeted junk mail you get) Anyone with access to all that info can know more about me than my spouse.

With nearly everyone in the system there is so much data that there is a very slight possibility that any one individual is going to be selected for deeper investigation. The technology required to make sense and practical use of all that raw date is still relatively primitive compared to its potential. That is why the supporters of a surveillance state reassure us that we are not likely to be targeted. However, all that information compiled on nearly everyone in the USA in a sophisticated database enables authorities to target individuals, find connections between people and organizations and detect all sorts of trends and behavior patterns.

Read the news stories on how the Chinese government is using information on citizen's internet use. I don't think it is at all farfetched to say that our government has the ability to disrupt political movements such as Occupy or the Tea Party before they even get started. They can potentially use their massive information database in conjunction with old fashioned investigative work, political dirty tricks, COINTELPRO type tactics and advertisng/marketing techniques to achieve virtually any type of political, social or marketing goal. If they can't do it right now, they will be able to do it in the near future.

With that much power in the hands of government, democracy becomes a farce. Perhaps it is not being abused yet. But all it will take is one person with a high level of access and a malicious or misguided agenda for many lives to be ruined. Mistakes will be made. Technology and privileges will be abused. Power and money will corrupt government officals. Bad, mentally ill or misguided people will be in positions of power.

You don't have to believe that there is any kind of evil plan or bad people in power at this time to conclude that this is too much power for any small group of people to have. It is akin to nuclear weapons. We are fortunate that, thanks to a lot of security and prevention effort, there have not been any nuclear wars or terrorist use of nuclear weapons yet. But the level of risk is proportional to the number of weapons that exist, no matter how hard we try to keep things under control.
 
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I don't care, in this exact instance, what the representatives want but instead, normal every day Americans. ?

You may want to brush up on your Government 101...the index should have something on representative democracy..just a clue to start you off.
 
You may want to brush up on your Government 101...the index should have something on representative democracy..just a clue to start you off.

Again, if it is representative democracy, then who exactly are the representatives representing? What percentage of their actual constituents want this dragnet surveillance that envelopes their phone and Internet communications? I mean, since we're the ones paying for this ****, and most are now more clearly worried about privacy instead of terrorism, it shows that our reps aren't doing their job.
 
You didn't answer the question: So U.S. citizens want to be spied on by their government?

I don't know. Do you?

I don't care, in this exact instance, what the representatives want but instead, normal every day Americans. Do they want their government spying on them?

I don't know. Do you?
 
So anyone with access can run around and do anything. Then an "oversight manager" will take a look at what they've been doing and decide if any of it is inappropriate? Really? This can't... really... be. how they do it? That is crazy sloppy and prone for recklessness. Why on earth would they not code rules...?? Come on you have to be making this up.

Nope. They do it so people can access what they need to access. If it's wrong, they'll pay for it later.

Anyone such as Snowden has the whole spying system at their fingertips and only after the fact does anyone notice what happened? That's retarded.

lol Snowden didn't have access. Again: this isn't IT.

I call bull sh1t.

Call whatever you want.
 
Nope. They do it so people can access what they need to access. If it's wrong, they'll pay for it later.



lol Snowden didn't have access. Again: this isn't IT.



Call whatever you want.

The article says Snowden and other "low-level" employees have complete access. That's what the whole thread is about? Wtf planet are you on?

So you're saying the article is bs? Which is fine, which is what I'm asking...
 
Again, if it is representative democracy, then who exactly are the representatives representing? What percentage of their actual constituents want this dragnet surveillance that envelopes their phone and Internet communications? I mean, since we're the ones paying for this ****, and most are now more clearly worried about privacy instead of terrorism, it shows that our reps aren't doing their job.

Call your congressmen and find out.
 
The article says Snowden and other "low-level" employees have complete access. That's what the whole thread is about? Wtf planet are you on?

lol, they don't.

So you're saying the article is bs? Which is fine, which is what I'm asking...

Sure. IT guys don't have access to raw SIGINT.
 
recently did a search on Google for a particular type of product and now I see adverts for that type of product popping up on various websites that are not related to that product or connected to Google directly. Now thousands of people may know about my interest in that product. Many of those people probably also know about my interest in other types of products and other interests as revealed by my history of Google searches, the YouTube videos I watched, my Facebook activity, and at least some of the other websites I visit. Someone with access to just my Google database can know more about me than my brother knows.

So what? What damage does this do to you? You are going to have to eventually accept that in a society where social technology is become more and more advanced and more a part of our society, this is going to become a reality. The only solution to this is to rid us of the internet and social networking on the internet. And I think you will be hard pressed to do this. We have already bought into it and I don't think there is any going back now that it is such a fundamental part of our society. I think the only solution to someone like you is to completely disconnect, buy a cabin in the woods and hunt for your own food. While this may be appealing to you, please don't think that the rest of us want to live the same way you do. I actually like that businesses are interested in what I am looking for as a consumer. It will only further improve products and services provided not just in whole, but on an individual level as well. Who does not like individually tailored service? Is this not why most of us save up tons of money to go on vacation where the people we pay are paid to tailor their services to our needs?

The government can access that same info and combine it with my telephone and utilitiy records, e-mail history, property records, criminal record, driver's license and vehicle registration info, public school records, social security and tax records. Much of that information is accessible by anyone. (as seen by the targeted junk mail you get) Anyone with access to all that info can know more about me than my spouse.

Again, why would your information be useful at all? You are probably not that interesting of an individual to begin with just as I. Do you think the government really cares, and if you do, why? I think many who have this fear may actually have some type of mental illness. Some may call it schizophrenia. There really is no argument that can be made to convince me that information about an every day person would be useful at all. Only people who believe they are either more important than they really are, or people who have a illogical fear of oversight, which many schizophrenics do, could believe their personal information is of any value.

With nearly everyone in the system there is so much data that there is a very slight possibility that any one individual is going to be selected for deeper investigation. The technology required to make sense and practical use of all that raw date is still relatively primitive compared to its potential. That is why the supporters of a surveillance state reassure us that we are not likely to be targetted. However, all that information compiled on nearly everyone in the USA in a sophisticated database can find connections between people and organizations and detect all sorts of trends and tendencies.

What use would this information be other than to track and detain criminals? And if it were being used in that way, I think it would be transparent enough to all of us via the media that we would act. I would be against the use of such technology in the way you mention above, but as of yet, there has been no evidence it has been used in that way on the scale people fear it will be. I don't know anyone who would not be against the use of this technology in anything other than tracking criminal activity. The very technology that would monitor us is also the technology that would expose it use as such. The same advances that would allow governments to track individuals also allows individuals to expose governments acting irresponsibly. So in the end it all washes.

Read the news stories on how the Chinese government is using information on citizen's internet use. I don't think it is at all farfetched to say that our government has the ability to disrupt political movements such as Occupy or the Tea Party before they even get started. They can potentially use their massive information database in conjunction with old fashioned investigative work, political dirty tricks, Cointel type tactics and advertisng/marketing techniques to acheive virtually any type of political, social or marketing goal. If they can't do it right now, they will be able to do it in the near future.

And as you rightly point out, it was reported thru the news. If the U.S. was a country like china where they censor the media and control information about itself, it would of course be troublesome. But in the U.S. that type of activity is quickly exposed because of the very technology that would allow anyone to know specifics about you.

With that much power in the hands of government, democracy becomes a farce. Perhaps it is not being abused yet. But all it will take is one person with a high level of access and a malicious or misguided agenda for many lives to be ruined. Mistakes will be made. Technology and privileges will be abused. Power and money will corrupt government officals. Bad, mentally ill or misguided people will be in positions of power.

This technology will be available either way. There is no way you are going to escape it. By condemning it outright, you will only drive it underground where we will ever know about it. I think the correct approach is to understand this new reality and embrace it in a way that forces it to become transparent.
 
So what? What damage does this do to you?

No direct damage is done, I was pointing out the power of this technology.

You are going to have to eventually accept that in a society where social technology is become more and more advanced and more a part of our society, this is going to become a reality. The only solution to this is to rid us of the internet and social networking on the internet. And I think you will be hard pressed to do this.

I willingly trade off convenience and entertainment for some privacy, but I have limits on the amount and type of information I am willing to provide.

I think the only solution to someone like you is to completely disconnect, buy a cabin in the woods and hunt for your own food.

See my post #157 for a discussion on some alternatives.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...phone-internet-records-16.html#post1062145056

Again, why would your information be useful at all? ......I think many who have this fear may actually have some type of mental illness. ....Only people who believe they are either more important than they really are, or people who have a illogical fear of oversight, which many schizophrenics do, could believe their personal information is of any value......What use would this information be other than to track and detain criminals?

Anyone with a bit of money and/or power is of potential interest to others. People may want to influence you, destroy you, use your credit card, blackmail you and empty your bank account. I am not saying the government wants to do that, but some individuals do, and a few could get jobs with access to this data.

And if it were being used in that way, I think it would be transparent enough to all of us via the media that we would act.

It usually takes years of hard work to expose governmental abuses such as COINTELPRO. The new technology makes it far easier for elements in the government to misuse its information resources and easier to hide it.

I would be against the use of such technology in the way you mention above, but as of yet, there has been no evidence it has been used in that way on the scale people fear it will be.

Using this technology to locate and execute U.S.A. citizens without a bothering with a trial and conviction is a pretty big abuse in my opinion.

I don't know anyone who would not be against the use of this technology in anything other than tracking criminal activity.

There is a lot temptation for the people who can access this information technology to use it for financial or political gain, career advantages or revenge.

The very technology that would monitor us is also the technology that would expose it use as such. The same advances that would allow governments to track individuals also allows individuals to expose governments acting irresponsibly. So in the end it all washes.

If the U.S. was a country like china where they censor the media and control information about itself, it would of course be troublesome. But in the U.S. that type of activity is quickly exposed because of the very technology that would allow anyone to know specifics about you.

Perhaps, but those who own or control this technology can always take it away or change it when they need to.

This technology will be available either way. There is no way you are going to escape it. By condemning it outright, you will only drive it underground where we will ever know about it. I think the correct approach is to understand this new reality and embrace it in a way that forces it to become transparent.

See my post #157 for a discussion on some alternatives.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...phone-internet-records-16.html#post1062145056
 
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Call your congressmen and find out.

And find out what? That they aren't representing their constituents properly? I already know that, so why call?
 
And find out what? That they aren't representing their constituents properly? I already know that, so why call?

Well if you're not happy with them, vote for the other guy. Although you may find that they won't be too different in practice; that's because it's all ideologically great until your face with the reality of the world.
 
Using this technology to locate and execute U.S.A. citizens without a bothering with a trial and conviction is a pretty big abuse in my opinion.

That's some conspiracy theory you got there..
 
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