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Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

OldWorldOrder said:
That has nothing to do with SIGINT. SIGINT is signals intelligence gathering. We were discussing how it's different from information technology, that multitudes of companies have sections dedicated to. They're two very different things. Now you're talking about legality or something like SIGINT is particular to the US or something like that. We're not. You're discussing something else.

lol, thank you for that very black and white interpretation. I appreciate that.
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I am very familiar with signals intelligence.
Using networks is just one more means for gathering raw data.
 
Misterveritis said:
I am very familiar with signals intelligence.
Using networks is just one more means for gathering raw data.
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That's great, and still has nothing to do with what you initially quoted.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Then you'd know SIGINT doesn't even have 'tradecraft'. Jesus ****, man, if there's one person you can't bull****, it's me.
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Do you prefer tactics, techniques and procedures?

35G. 20 years. Retired Army officer.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
That's great, and still has nothing to do with what you initially quoted.
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You mean you and Verax having your little fit over the differences between information technology and signals intelligence?

You told him that he doesn't understand sigint. I said I do. The context of this discussion remains the allegations that the US is spying on all Americans.
 
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greyhat said:
LOL- you obviously have an ax to grind with Uncle Sam and no amount of logic will fix how you see the world. No one is spying on you- Facebook knows more about you than the NSA LOL
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What the hell are you even talking about? Your response has nothing to do with anything I've said.

Nobody is spying on me? If you had even the foggiest clue what this is all about, you'd understand they're spying on everyone. No they are not specifically targeting me, but they are passively collecting information on what I do, aka spying. Now I'm not necessarily worried right now that this information will be used against me in some awful way considering I'm not a terrorist. However it does leave the door wide open for abuse in the future. Being that most of what they do is done in secret, how would we hold them accountable? Who is going to stop them from abusing this information?

When the taser was first introduced to police officers it was intended to only be used in place of lethal force. Rather than having to kill somebody who is posing a danger they could taze them instead. Look at what it is used for now. If you do not comply with their verbal commands bzzzzt they taze your ass to the ground with a second notice. It could be over something so minor as arguing with a cop over a traffic ticket.

Who is to say this isn't the first step towards using this information for other purposes than just national security? Who is to say they're not already abusing it?
 
Misterveritis said:
Do you prefer tactics, techniques and procedures?

35G. 20 years. Retired Army officer.
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That's not SIGINT, and that's not an officer MOS.


Misterveritis said:
You mean you and Veraz having your little fit over the differences between information technology and signals intelligence?
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There's no fit. He thinks it's the same as far as access goes. It's not.

You told him that he doesn't understand sigint. I said I do. The context of this discussion remains the allegations that the US is spying on all Americans.
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So what do you have to say about having the physical ability to query raw SIGINT databases but not the legal authority? Do you think anything about it? Cause imagery isn't the same, and I've never met an NGA guy that had access to those databases. Maybe you did, as a "35G officer". What was your MOS when you entered anyway, because 20 years ago there was no 35 series. Nah, nevermind, I'm sure you're legit. >.>

What do you have to add about IT being different from SIGINT? Tell us.

Misterveritis said:
But you are making the case that tyranny is fine with you as long as enough people agree.
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No, I'm not. You're making the case, though, that if you don't like something and think it's illegal, it is illegal and there's no argument otherwise. It's silly.
 
greyhat said:
Quite the contrary. You remind me of religious zealots who can only interpret information in a manner that suits their point of view. Sad.
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Do you understand why the 4th amendment was added to the bill of rights? How does one interpret the requirement of probable cause/judicial approval to prevent unreasonable searches and seizures to mean it is okay to spy on American citizens?

I suppose I do remind you of a religious zealot. You remind me of one who sees the Constitution as a hindrance.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
I know you don't understand what SIGINT is, though.
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Information technology is a broad term that covers SIGINT. Signals are intercepted and recorded to a database that is then accessed later by NSA agents. What is your point?
 
OldWorldOrder said:
That's not SIGINT, and that's not an officer MOS.
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35G is not an officer MOS? If you must know I was also a 35D (so 35DG) and carried a 7Y designator. I was also a defense intelligence agency school trained intelligence collection manager. I served as a corps level collection manager. You are blowing it...
 
Verax said:
Information technology is a broad term that covers SIGINT.
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No, it doesn't.

Signals are intercepted and recorded to a database that is then accessed later by NSA agents. What is your point?
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'NSA agents'? The odd use of terms would leave me to believe you don't get this: certain people get access to 'raw SIGINT'. Not many, but they're not particularly high-ranking or anything. It's people doing a certain job. They can query a database and there's a lot of options. But they only have the legal power to go after certain targets. It has nothing to do with IT access. Zero. If they query something they shouldn't, it pops up and they're ****ed. Well, actually everything they query comes up, but you know what I mean.
 
greyhat said:
Thats the problem: You assume you're being spied on. You fail to realize that the huge amounts of information that are collected and need to be analyzed wouldn't allow for someone to just sit around and spy on all 310 million Americans.
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I recently did a search on Google for a particular type of product and now I see adverts for that type of product popping up on various websites that are not related to that product or connected to Google directly. Now thousands of people may know about my interest in that product. Many of those people probably also know about my interest in other types of products and other interests as revealed by my history of Google searches, the YouTube videos I watched, my Facebook activity, and at least some of the other websites I visit. Someone with access to just my Google database can know more about me than my brother knows.

The government can access that same info and combine it with my telephone and utilitiy records, e-mail history, property records, criminal record, driver's license and vehicle registration info, public school records, social security and tax records. Much of that information is accessible by anyone. (as seen by the targeted junk mail you get) Anyone with access to all that info can know more about me than my spouse.

With nearly everyone in the system there is so much data that there is a very slight possibility that any one individual is going to be selected for deeper investigation. The technology required to make sense and practical use of all that raw date is still relatively primitive compared to its potential. That is why the supporters of a surveillance state reassure us that we are not likely to be targetted. However, all that information compiled on nearly everyone in the USA in a sophisticated database can find connections between people and organizations and detect all sorts of trends and tendencies.

Read the news stories on how the Chinese government is using information on citizen's internet use. I don't think it is at all farfetched to say that our government has the ability to disrupt political movements such as Occupy or the Tea Party before they even get started. They can potentially use their massive information database in conjunction with old fashioned investigative work, political dirty tricks, Cointel type tactics and advertisng/marketing techniques to acheive virtually any type of political, social or marketing goal. If they can't do it right now, they will be able to do it in the near future.

With that much power in the hands of government, democracy becomes a farce. Perhaps it is not being abused yet. But all it will take is one person with a high level of access and a malicious or misguided agenda for many lives to be ruined. Mistakes will be made. Technology and privileges will be abused. Power and money will corrupt government officals. Bad, mentally ill or misguided people will be in positions of power.

You don't have to believe that there is any kind of evil plan or bad people in power at this time to conclude that this is too much power for any small group of people to have. It is akin to nuclear weapons. We are fortunate that, thanks to a lot of security and prevention effort, there have not been any nuclear wars or terrorist use of nuclear weapons yet. But the level of risk is proportional to the number of weapons that exist, no matter how hard we try to keep things under control.
 
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OldWorldOrder said:
Then you'd know SIGINT doesn't even have 'tradecraft'. Jesus ****, man, if there's one person you can't bull****, it's me.
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I never assume that someone spouting off is competent. Words and phrases get used slightly out of place. I try to answer the question I think is being asked.

Now that I know you are a "sharpshooter" I will avoid you.
 
Misterveritis said:
35G is not an officer MOS? If you must know I was also a 35D (so 35DG) and carried a 7Y designator. I was also a defense intelligence agency school trained intelligence collection manager. I served as a corps level collection manager. You are blowing it...
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And yet you still think IT and SIGINT are the same? How odd.
 
Misterveritis said:
I never assume that someone spouting off is competent. Words and phrases get used slightly out of place. I try to answer the question I think is being asked.

Now that I know you are a "sharpshooter" I will avoid you.
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Yeah, avoid the **** out of me, I'm not the one you want. You'll actually have to back up your bull****.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
What did you tell your Congressman when you voted for him?
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It was actually before I voted for him. And I repeat it often. Bring this country back to a constitutional form of government.

I will remind him again in the Town Hall meeting he will no doubt have. I will also ask him to explain why he did not vote to cut off funding for this NSA program.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Yeah, avoid the **** out of me, I'm not the one you want. You'll actually have to back up your bull****.
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In addition to everything else you are just one unhappy person. I will avoid you because you are unpleasant in addition to being a sharpshooter. From my perspective you are a waste of time. You already know everything, are unteachable and you think you are cute. Others see you differently.
 
Misterveritis said:
It was actually before I voted for him. And I repeat it often. Bring this country back to a constitutional form of government.
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So you didn't talk to him about everything he votes upon?

I will remind him again in the Town Hall meeting he will no doubt have. I will also ask him to explain why he did not vote to cut off funding for this NSA program.
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And he'll tell you something very diplomatic that will boil down to: "you don't understand this program, you don't understand national security, and you don't understand that just because you think something is unconstitutional doesn't make it unconstitutional."

And you're going to have deal with it. Drink water, drive on.
 
Misterveritis said:
In addition to everything else you are just one unhappy person. I will avoid you because you are unpleasant in addition to being a sharpshooter. From my perspective you are a waste of time. You already know everything, are unteachable and you think you are cute. Others see you differently.
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Nah, I'm happy. Keep avoiding.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
And yet you still think IT and SIGINT are the same? How odd.
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I do not recall ever making that claim. I dealt mostly with signals, imagery and humint. We were just beginning measurements and signatures when I left the collection management job to become an intelligence officer on an airborne command post.
Pulling data off a network is not much different than pulling it off an underwater cable. It really wasn't sigint either, was it?

What is a signal anyway? Does it really matter what medium the information flows in? If I take a signal off a wire is that any different than if I take out of the air?
 
OldWorldOrder said:
So you didn't talk to him about everything he votes upon?

And he'll tell you something very diplomatic that will boil down to: "you don't understand this program, you don't understand national security, and you don't understand that just because you think something is unconstitutional doesn't make it unconstitutional."

And you're going to have deal with it. Drink water, drive on.
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If I don't think he is paying attention I will support his opponent. One very important reason why democracies fail is that we stop sending men and women with integrity to occupy those temporary offices.
 
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