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Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

lol no. You can't do it without many other people knowing about it, and reporting it. If it's legal, cool. If you just tried to spy on your ex-girlfriend, you're in big trouble.

Indeed. I know a SSgt who tried to use a collection platform to catch his wife cheating on him. He was sadly successful in doing so, and is now busy turning big rocks into little rocks (or whatever they do) in the brig.
 
Wrong. Your representatives gave permission on your behalf, which is their job - to make decisions on your behalf. :) Vote wisely.

We're free people in this country still, no? Just because a lawmaker signed off on something doesn't equate out to permission for three hundred million Americans.
 
We're free people in this country still, no? Just because a lawmaker signed off on something doesn't equate out to permission for three hundred million Americans.

It does when the majority votes for it and it becomes law- that's how a representative democracy works..
 
We're free people in this country still, no? Just because a lawmaker signed off on something doesn't equate out to permission for three hundred million Americans.
No, a lone lawmaker cannot validate or halt these practices, just as a lone and self promoting employee cannot undermine legislatively approved and judicially upheld practices with any authority.
 
It does when the majority votes for it and it becomes law- that's how a representative democracy works..

Well, at least you can admit that lawmakers have made it "lawful" to spy on American citizens. What's funny is some of their faux outrages when there are revelations when they're the ones getting cash put in their coffers by the IC. And you're here, among your particular allies, condoning the whole cluster****.
 
We're free people in this country still, no? Just because a lawmaker signed off on something doesn't equate out to permission for three hundred million Americans.

Um. Yes. It does. That's what we call "representative government" (est. 1789). We don't always like what our representatives do, but they are our representatives still.
 
Um. Yes. It does. That's what we call "representative government" (est. 1789). We don't always like what our representatives do, but they are our representatives still.

Who are they representing though? Actual Americans, or… ? That's the basis of my argument. Representatives are supposed to present their district's desires and legislate in that direction, right? So where are all of these Americans that want to be spied on by their government? I don't want to be spied on by my government. Do you?
 
Who are they representing though?

Their constituents.

Actual Americans, or… ? That's the basis of my argument.

A question-mark is the basis of your argument?

hm.... I can do this to.

What species are they really, though? Normal homo sapiens as they pretend, or......?


clearly, Members of Congress are Aliens.

Representatives are supposed to present their district's desires and legislate in that direction, right? So where are all of these Americans that want to be spied on by their government? I don't want to be spied on by my government. Do you?

Your argument seems to be less with this particular program than our system of government. We are a representative republic; we elect people to go forth and make decisions for us, as our legal representatives. We give them, if you will, near full powers of attorney. My personal relationship with government oversight is... different from typical, perhaps. The government logs my activity on a daily basis because I work for it.
 
If I were reliant on a specific agency for my security, then I would demand that they all be high level workers.
 
Wrong. Your representatives gave permission on your behalf, which is their job - to make decisions on your behalf. :) Vote wisely.

Vote wisely! What a joke! :lamo
 
Vote wisely! What a joke! :lamo

Yes, especially considering what this discussion is about.

both the Democrats and Republicans, aside from a few outliers, support the domestic spying program.

Perhaps the Greens and Libertarians do not....but they don't tend to hold Federal Office.
 
Yes, especially considering what this discussion is about.

both the Democrats and Republicans, aside from a few outliers, support the domestic spying program.

Perhaps the Greens and Libertarians do not....but they don't tend to hold Federal Office.

You guys keep calling it a domestic program- how ignorant and narcissistic - everyone keeps assuming THEY are the target. Really?!?? The NSA guards this info better than Ft Knox.
 
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You guys keep calling it a domestic program- how ignorant and narcissistic - everyone keeps assuming THEY are the target. Really?!??

It's not narcissism, because I'm not an American citizen.

(To America's credit...Canadians simply don't know the extent of Canadian domestic spying).

But yes, your spy program is partially about keeping tabs on American citizens. Do you suppose it's a coincidental residue of Fighting Worldwide Evil?
 
It's not narcissism, because I'm not an American citizen.

(To America's credit...Canadians simply don't know the extent of Canadian domestic spying).

But yes, your spy program is partially about keeping tabs on American citizens. Do you suppose it's a coincidental residue of Fighting Worldwide Evil?

You know very little about US intel apparatus; get a clue first, then you can post something intelligent.
 
You know very little about US intel apparatus; get a clue first, then you can post something intelligent.


I appreciate your sincere and generous attempt to help me improve myself. You're a nice person.
 
Yes, especially considering what this discussion is about.

both the Democrats and Republicans, aside from a few outliers, support the domestic spying program.

Perhaps the Greens and Libertarians do not....but they don't tend to hold Federal Office.

That is correct. Representatives from the broadest possible political swathe of the electorate have all signed off on this program, as have all three branches of government. You wanted checks, balances, separation of powers? It's all there. Feel free to try to figure out a system that would do better.
 
That is correct. Representatives from the broadest possible political swathe of the electorate have all signed off on this program, as have all three branches of government. You wanted checks, balances, separation of powers? It's all there. Feel free to try to figure out a system that would do better.

I think the system is very good. I think the historical record will bear this out.

But part of the system's very excellence depends on people complaining and debating about it...and trying to hold the representatives to account. Periodic voting is only part of it.

It's a crucial component of the democratic principle.

So ok, that's just what I'm doing, and what you're doing too, in responding.

Except that my remarks don't have an implied "stop complaining" remonstrance underlying them...a short step up from "love it or leave it!" :)
 
I think the system is very good. I think the historical record will bear this out.

But part of the system's very excellence depends on people complaining and debating about it...and trying to hold the representatives to account. Periodic voting is only part of it.

It's a crucial component of the democratic principle.

So ok, that's just what I'm doing, and what you're doing too, in responding.

Except that my remarks don't have an implied "stop complaining" remonstrance underlying them...a short step up from "love it or leave it!" :)

I think we are talking past each other just a tic - I am referring explicitly to the system that produced this program, not the U.S. as a whole. You aren't going to get much better for a covert program than to require explicit Congressional authorization to be exercised with Executive Oversight subject to Judicial Review in such a situation wherein the major leaders of both national parties have to be party to the decision.
 
Their constituents.

So you're saying Americans want to be spied on?

And you didn't answer one of my questions: Do you want our government spying on you?
 
So you're saying Americans want to be spied on?

And you didn't answer one of my questions: Do you want our government spying on you?

Americans want security and thru their government have voted for it; all these programs, whether YOU like them or not, are legal.

And who said they're spying on you? Is it really that hard to absorb that these are foreign targeted programs? The military has a lot of guns, that doesn't mean they're pointing them at YOU...

Your fear is of abuse and no doubt they could occur but this is why there are oversight programs and protocol.

Nothing is 100% proof; intel collection is messy but no doubt within the context of a dangerous world needed. We don't live in an ideological neighborhood where everyone respects each other, rather we live in a nasty dangerous world- wake up!
 
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So U.S. citizens want to be spied on by their government?

The people they voted into office did. That's the way this system of governance works. If you don't like this system, you can try to change it or move.
 
I think we are talking past each other just a tic - I am referring explicitly to the system that produced this program, not the U.S. as a whole. You aren't going to get much better for a covert program than to require explicit Congressional authorization to be exercised with Executive Oversight subject to Judicial Review in such a situation wherein the major leaders of both national parties have to be party to the decision.

Well, when it comes to secrets and power, I believe the two parties (and, to a little lesser degree, the different branches) are essentially "two buttocks on the same fat gentleman," to slightly mangle the metaphor.

Heck, for 25 years, both parties, as well as multiple parties in several other nations, up to and including Ambassadors and various government and military officials, tried very hard (and with some limited success) to keep secret the full extent of material, intentional Western support for mass murder in East Timor by their pseudo-fascist ally, Indonesia's Suharto.

So sometimes the "representatives" are precisely on the same page, in unjustifiable behaviors that would make most of their constituents go pale.
 
So U.S. citizens want to be spied on by their government?

What's funny (sad) is that the answer is yes, for a portion of the sample group U.S. citizens.

Some folks prefer the regimented life and like to be told what to do. I wonder if it is a conscious decision? The herd mentality at its strongest.
 
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