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Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

no.the MI constitution does not say any of that. read the damn provision. it's been posted earlier in this thread

what that constitutional language says is that the pensions cannot be diminished while adhering to the state's constitution
that's what it says

now how to do that
don't diminish the pension benefits

which means just that. there are funds to be applied to outstanding debts. apply them here. then take the rest and pay the indebtedness that remains, pennies on the dollar to secured creditors. unsecured creditors ... sorry about that

What funds?
 
no.the MI constitution does not say any of that. read the damn provision. it's been posted earlier in this thread

what that constitutional language says is that the pensions cannot be diminished while adhering to the state's constitution
that's what it says

now how to do that
don't diminish the pension benefits

which means just that. there are funds to be applied to outstanding debts. apply them here. then take the rest and pay the indebtedness that remains, pennies on the dollar to secured creditors. unsecured creditors ... sorry about that

What funds?
 
Sure, you can frame things any way you want to. Just don't be surprised when I don't participate.

YOu confuse me with somebody who cares about the opinion of somebody on the far right fringe of extremism.
 
YOu confuse me with somebody who cares about the opinion of somebody on the far right fringe of extremism.
I would be fascinated to see what you can produce that would give ANYONE the idea that I am a far right extremist.
 
I would be fascinated to see what you can produce that would give ANYONE the idea that I am a far right extremist.
You probably believe that governments should be restrained in their actions and activities by written Constitutions. For some here that is pretty extreme.
 
Detroit was destroyed by liberalism. People left because they could. They voted against the taxes and regulations with their feet.

You have identified the symptoms. What is the root cause of this disaster? I believe it was government actions, public sector unions and regulations including federal regulations. Detroit was just the most spectacular failure. Expect to see more.

The US is in a worse situation. It is hard to leave. It iis hard to succeed under the growing heavy hand of government.

We saw the Soviet Union fail, almost overnight. Near the end it will go very quickly. How much longer do we have? I suppose that depends on what we do and who does it. I will continue to fight, of course, but I do not believe it will be a positive outcome.

I'm not suggesting that policy didn't play a role, but suboptimal policy amplified the impact of growing structural headwinds. Such headwinds included the relative decline of U.S. manufacturing, the rise of an increasingly knowledge-based economy, etc. Advances that facilitated global trade, capital flows, information flows, and transporation of goods eroded the competitive advantages that were once leveraged by Detroit. At the same time chronic underinvestment in education coupled with a migration of Detroit's educated populace created a dramatic educational attainment gap. That gap has left Detroit with an abnormally large labor pool that is insufficiently skilled for today's economy, meaning that Detroit suffers from a larger degree of structural unemployment. Even if taxes and regulations were eliminated, yes eliminated altogether, health service providers, software development/engineering firms, financial services providers, professional services firms (law, accounting, consulting, etc.), among others, would not suddenly start hiring Detroit's unemployed in large numbers. Those firms depend on highly-skilled workers.

If one is looking for some empirical research concerning structural factors that helped drive Detroit's decay, which ultimately led to its current fiscal crisis, one such paper can be found here:

http://www.nber.org/papers/w13710.pdf
 
When the Ponzi Scheme begins to collapse during a down economy, Katy!! Bar the door!!

John Kenneth Galbraith said:
"..At any given time there exists an inventory of undisclosed embezzlement.
This inventory - it should perhaps be called the bezzle - amounts at any moment to many millions of dollars.
In good times people are relaxed, trusting, and money is plentiful. ... Under these circumstances the rate of embezzlement grows, the rate of discovery falls off, and the bezzle increases rapidly.
In depression all this is reversed. ... Just as the (stock market boom) accelerated the rate of growth (of embezzlement), so the crash enormously advanced the rate of discovery.".."
Warren Buffet said:
"You only find out who is swimming naked when the tide goes out."

Both quotes here:
Jim Randel: Finding the Bezzle
 
It was absolutely scandalous. I read an article yesterday which outlined some of the bad investments made with those pension funds. Among them were investments in development projects within the city that are now defunct. Imagine the cronyism involved with that process! City councilman gives his contractor buddy a giant contract to build "something". Buddy gets paid, councilman gets reelected, the "something" that was built is now worthless, and the pension fund is now out a couple of million bucks. The people put in charge of managing these funds also used a bogus model to project their future value. They "assumed" an 8% annual gain and then used that figure to claim that funding rates were upwards of 80% when they were really about 40% or lower.

I do feel for the pensioners that are going to get shafted by this but you are absolutely right. People need to go to jail. What happened to Detroit is a crime.

That same sort of crony capitalism has been going on in Washington for several years but, like Detroit, the people continue to elect these corrupt sob's. So who is at fault? The crooks? Or is it those who buy into the ideology and elect them not because of their character but because of party affiliation? It is said that people get the government they deserve, and that appears to be true.

The problem seems to be that Americans are spending like they are rich, that it is still what it once was, that being a world leader is a natural birthright. But the money is no longer there. It is the brokest nation in the history of the world and with almost 50%of the people receiving money from the government there is no end in sight, except something similar to Detroit.

There should be sympathy for those Americans who worked hard and voted for politicians who might have done the right thing but the good will go down with the bad. And the most corrupt will still have their homes and penthouses in gated communities throughout the country, while those who voted for them will suffer the most.
 
YOu confuse me with somebody who cares about the opinion of somebody on the far right fringe of extremism.

This is the typical response of a committed Leftist. When reality interferes with their economic whimsies it is called "right wing" or, worse in their myopic eyes the ultimate insult, 'far right wing". That's as far as their imagination extends.
 
At the rate we are moving toward a mix of fascism and socialism how much longer do you think it will take? Tyranny is already here. And it grows every day.

new rule define socialism.jpg
 
What funds?

municipal tax revenues

or do you allow yourself to believe detroit collects no tax revenues
should you choose to look, the revenues are far greater than the amount needed to sustain the pension plans
leaving a remainderman to be used to pay other obligations

where did all the wingers get the inaccurate belief that bankrupt debtors have NO money
they usually have some
just not enough to cover their current debt
and the bankruptcy judge makes a determination how those assets will be applied to satisfy all creditors
and in this instance the pensioners are telling the court that their pensions are protected by the state constitution
 
This is the typical response of a committed Leftist. When reality interferes with their economic whimsies it is called "right wing" or, worse in their myopic eyes the ultimate insult, 'far right wing". That's as far as their imagination extends.

We have seen a great deal of right wing bluff and bluster on this issue. It right here in this forum for all to see. Identifying it is only proper.
 
Detroit was destroyed by liberalism. People left because they could. They voted against the taxes and regulations with their feet.

Earlier in this thread I provided a great amount of verifiable evidence showing that while the TAX RATE in Detroit is high the actual tax paid is rather low because the homes are valued at such low levels compared to the suburbs around it. Because of that reality, Detroiters who do move to the suburbs as you suggest - voting with their feet - are almost always voting themselves a TAX INCREASE in doing so. One can get a three bedroom home in Detroit for under $10,000.00. There are some available for as little as $2,500.00 and that is an intact home. Just cross the line into Dearborn or Southfield and you will expect to many many times that for the same size home. Because you are now paying five to ten times as much for the home, even if your tax rate is half of that in the city, you still end up paying a great deal more in taxes due to the home value differences.

You are right that people did vote with their feet by leaving Detroit. However, it had precious little to do with liberalism or taxation since they normally moved to Wayne County suburbs where the people in charge were also Democrats and the taxes ended up even more than they were paying.
 
You are right that people did vote with their feet by leaving Detroit. However, it had precious little to do with liberalism or taxation since they normally moved to Wayne County suburbs where the people in charge were also Democrats and the taxes ended up even more than they were paying.

There seems to be an implicit assumption behind the tax rates argument that municipalities are essentially commodities offering identical/nearly identical services, hence there's a high-responsiveness to tax rates. In reality, things are more complex. People had been leaving Detroit where tax rates are high/tax payments are low on account of depressed home values for areas in which they pay higher taxes. But for them, the higher taxes are well worth it, because they are getting far more marginal value in the form of better schools, better services, greater safety, more employment/career growth opportunities, among other things. They're willing to pay more in taxes to upgrade the quality of their life.

The hypothesis that tax rates doomed Detroit is essentially the same as an argument that when stores charge higher prices, shoppers will only go to the dollar stores or other deep discount stores. That doesn't happen, because high-end stores offer sufficient extra value (more features, more service, more generous warranties, often more durable products, greater convenience, a more pleasant shopping experience, etc.) that makes it worthwhile for shoppers who have the income/finances to pay more to go there. Differentiation does exist and consumers are willing to pay for it. The same dynamic exists with regard to municipalities. Hence, the seemingly irrational decision for people to willingly pay higher taxes is a wholly rational one once the added value from their relocation is considered.
 
There seems to be an implicit assumption behind the tax rates argument that municipalities are essentially commodities offering identical/nearly identical services, hence there's a high-responsiveness to tax rates. In reality, things are more complex. People had been leaving Detroit where tax rates are high/tax payments are low on account of depressed home values for areas in which they pay higher taxes. But for them, the higher taxes are well worth it, because they are getting far more marginal value in the form of better schools, better services, greater safety, more employment/career growth opportunities, among other things. They're willing to pay more in taxes to upgrade the quality of their life.

The hypothesis that tax rates doomed Detroit is essentially the same as an argument that when stores charge higher prices, shoppers will only go to the dollar stores or other deep discount stores. That doesn't happen, because high-end stores offer sufficient extra value (more features, more service, more generous warranties, often more durable products, greater convenience, a more pleasant shopping experience, etc.) that makes it worthwhile for shoppers who have the income/finances to pay more to go there. Differentiation does exist and consumers are willing to pay for it. The same dynamic exists with regard to municipalities. Hence, the seemingly irrational decision for people to willingly pay higher taxes is a wholly rational one once the added value from their relocation is considered.

Excellent points. You are correct - it is not about taxes be they high or low but what you get for them in return. People are indeed willing to pay higher taxes - in some cases triple or more compared to what they would pay for in Detroit - because it comes with better services and a better quality of life in the community.

And that has not a thing to do with the charge of the failure of liberalism.
 
Earlier in this thread I provided a great amount of verifiable evidence showing that while the TAX RATE in Detroit is high the actual tax paid is rather low because the homes are valued at such low levels compared to the suburbs around it. Because of that reality, Detroiters who do move to the suburbs as you suggest - voting with their feet - are almost always voting themselves a TAX INCREASE in doing so.

Do you realize how dishonest that is?
 
Feel free to elaborate and back that up.

Where to begin..

How about that for each dollar that the land is valued at Detroit is bringing in more than areas with lower taxation. Of course, you already knew this. You just think that pointing out that the land is of such low value is actually meaningful and can deflect from the high taxation. You are also aware that if the rate is lower they are NOT voting themselves a tax increase.
 
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Feel free to elaborate and back that up.

Not really commenting to this post, but grabbed it to say this: Real estate taxes do not necessarily go down when property values decrease, even dramatically. Here's a case in point: 2532 Longfellow St, Detroit, MI 48206 - Home For Sale and Real Estate Listing - realtor.com® -- A home currently for sale in Detroit for $38,000. Real estate taxes? $2,700.

In most jurisdictions, the tax rate is figured by dividing the budget by the aggregate total of real estate value.

Example #1: A $1 million budget and $5 million in property valuation = a tax rate of 20-cents per thousand of evaluation. A guy with a $100,000 house is going to pay $200.

Example #2: A $1 million budget and $2.5 million in property valuation = a tax rate of 40-cents per thousand of evaluation. A guy with a $50,000 house is going to pay $200.
 
Do you realize how dishonest that is?

what i do notice is that while you repeatedly point to perceived dishonesty, you are never able to actually describe it
it is but another fabricated post, offered only because it has become obvious that you are without anything substantial to otherwise offer
 
It seems that the only thing that hasn't happened out of those 4 points is 60% of people moving out of the US. Most of our major business manufacture their products overseas (which also reduces our tax base) and we have a large amount of unemployed people.

Not really hitting the same numbers, but we have been on our way.

You also need to make 90% of your voter base liberal and a huge portion of the workforce unionized and then have them each vote themselves unsustainable benefits for a few decades. Then when the money runs out, claim that THE MONEY IS NOT ALLOWED TO RUN OUT!
 
Where to begin..

How about that for each dollar that the land is valued at Detroit is bringing in more than areas with lower taxation. Of course, you already knew this. You just think that pointing out that the land is of such low value is actually meaningful and can deflect from the high taxation. You are also aware that if the rate is lower they are NOT voting themselves a tax increase.

You are playing with words to ignore the reality here that is beyond dispute: a person who owns a home in Detroit of the same size and age of one in the suburbs may indeed pay a higher rate on the property BUT the person in the suburbs pays more actual dollars even with a lower tax rate because the home is worth many times more.

We are talking about actually out of pocket dollars and not some nonsense about dollar value of property.

Because of that hard cold reality, people are actually increasing their out of pocket tax expense when they move to the suburbs of Detroit.

So the idea that it was HIGH TAXES which caused them to flee Detroit is ridiculous as they pay even more tax to live in the suburbs.
 
We have seen a great deal of right wing bluff and bluster on this issue. It right here in this forum for all to see. Identifying it is only proper.

I suppose, in your world, it is preferred to actual debate.
 
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