• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

But the US catastrophe that must come will be the result of government moving beyond the Constitution.

It's extremely unlikely that the U.S. will abandon its constitution anytime during the foreseeable future, especially as the amending process allows for flexibility. There is no serious movement to supplant the constitution with any alternative. By serious movement, I mean one that enjoys a significant share of the population and has or is gaining significant influence. Fringe elements do not constitute a serious movement in that direction.

Socialism must eventually cause ruin.

The U.S. is currently a mixed economy. It is not, at least in the strict definition of the term, a socialist economy.

Detroit lets us stare our fate in the face.

Detroit offers some lessons related to the depletion of human capital (population decline + departure of highly educated persons + failure of schools to regenerate human capital) in which the environment became inhospitable to economic activity, that decline in economic activity fueled significant socioeconomic problems, public finances deteriorated to the point where basic services were no longer provided effectively, all of which further compounded Detroit's problems.

The U.S. as a whole does not face such a dire problem anytime soon. It does risk a continued erosion of its competitiveness on account of the stagnation of its educational attainment and emergent gap with OECD countries. Some of this gap is already being reflected in early indications that the rate of U.S. innovation is slowing, which means diminished long-run growth potential. The U.S. still has broad flexibility to address its major problems, as well as the capacity to make necessary investments. Hence, a decline is not inevitable. There is an alternative path. However, a continuation of political dysfunction will plant the U.S. on a less than optimal path, as the changing world requires more than the status quo (the default policy from political dysfunction).
 
We could turn Detroit into an oasis of growth in less than a year. Have Congress pass a law that says Those in Detroit will pay only one-half of whatever tax rates are published for all of us. No regulatory agency regulations shall be binding. They will be advisory only. This shall be true for the next 75 years.

This is not a tax or regulatory problem. Its high crime, lack of basic services, enormous educational attainment gap that has created a largely uncompetitive labor pool, and other socioeconomic problems make it highly unattractive. Companies will not hire workers who cannot perform even if they paid no taxes, because they need to provide value in a competitive marketplace. Companies won't operate where their employees and assets are endangered on account of a lack of basic services e.g., effective law enforcement.
 

I am not certain what that was - but it certainly is not any expert providing verifiable evidence about the real causes of this problem.

But if you feel I am wrong, by all means present your points using actual words and analysis instead of relying on some cheap you tube video made for a far right wing outlet to speak for you.

Your video begins to lie just one minute in

IT ALL STARTED WITH MAYOR JEROME CAVANAUGH ELECTED IN 1961......

False. As has already been well documented - the slide began in 1951 and during the following decade Detroit lost 10% of its 1.8 million population. And the people who were mayor were not LEFTISTS or LIBERALS or SOCIALISTS as the liar behind this smear piece alleges the blame for Detroit lies with- they were.......... drum roll please ---- REPUBLICANS. Yes, the slide started under Republicans in 1951.

So your film is based on a FALSE PREMISE and can be flushed right out of the gate.
 
Last edited:
False. As has already been well documented - the slide began in 1951 and during the following decade Detroit lost 10% of its 1.8 million population. And the people who were mayor were not LEFTISTS or LIBERALS or SOCIALISTS as the liar behind this smear piece alleges the blame for Detroit lies with- they were.......... drum roll please ---- REPUBLICANS. Yes, the slide started under Republicans in 1951.

So your film is based on a FALSE PREMISE and can be flushed right out of the gate.

If you want to look at this from the partisan hack angle, lets try it from the opposite sideline and see what it looks like...


"After 10 years under Republican leadership Detroit finds itself with a 10% population loss and signs that the auto industry may not be viable over the long term. Beginning in January of 1962 a bold new Democratic leadership takes the helm and vows to right the ship and lead Detroit back to prosperity!

50 years later, under the guidance of strong Democratic leadership Detroit finds itself...<drum roll>... in ruins. Over half of the population now gone, vast stretches of real estate in decay, and the city coffers now dry, Detroit officially throws in the towel and files bankruptcy."



I dunno, haymarket. You may not want to go down this road. Going "hack" has a way of coming back around to bite you in the ass. That's free advice.:mrgreen:
 
If you want to look at this from the partisan hack angle, lets try it from the opposite sideline and see what it looks like...


"After 10 years under Republican leadership Detroit finds itself with a 10% population loss and signs that the auto industry may not be viable over the long term. Beginning in January of 1962 a bold new Democratic leadership takes the helm and vows to right the ship and lead Detroit back to prosperity!

50 years later, under the guidance of strong Democratic leadership Detroit finds itself...<drum roll>... in ruins. Over half of the population now gone, vast stretches of real estate in decay, and the city coffers now dry, Detroit officially throws in the towel and files bankruptcy."



I dunno, haymarket. You may not want to go down this road. Going "hack" has a way of coming back around to bite you in the ass. That's free advice.:mrgreen:

I believe Haymarket's point is that one cannot conclude that Detroit's fiscal catastrophe is solely or largely the result of a given political party's governance. He points out that some of the critical factors e.g., onset of population decline, spanned city administrations from both parties. None of this means that single party domination doesn't have some adverse impact in governance outcomes, as one often sees such outcomes in uncompetitive markets. But the structural factors that led to Detroit's decline and current fiscal catastrophe are largely beyond issues of governance. Ineffectual governance exacerbated them and accelerated the slide. It did not create those structural factors.

On a larger point to rebut the partisan hypothesis, one has witnessed underfunding of pensions in cities and states run by both parties. For example, Illinois faces enormous unfunded pension liabilities. Legal cases concerning underfunding were raised during the 1970s (Democratic governor) and 1990s (Republican governor).

http://cgfa.ilga.gov/upload/2008 january handbook of illinois pension case law.pdf

One can see the appeal for a partisan explanation (aside from posturing for political gain), as such an explanation would seem to offer a simple fix. Unfortunately, convenient as a "simple fix" might be, the problems are of a magnitude and complexity that precludes any simple solutions. Putting the city on a more financially stable path via bankruptcy is probably the easy part of the issue. Restoring an environment of growth, safety, and reduced incidence of socioeconomic problems is the more difficult challenge. Diagnosing the issue as one of partisanship only detracts from gaining the understanding necessary to chart a path of recovery for Detroit.
 
I believe Haymarket's point is that one cannot conclude that Detroit's fiscal catastrophe is solely or largely the result of a given political party's governance. He points out that some of the critical factors e.g., onset of population decline, spanned city administrations from both parties. None of this means that single party domination doesn't have some adverse impact in governance outcomes, as one often sees such outcomes in uncompetitive markets. But the structural factors that led to Detroit's decline and current fiscal catastrophe are largely beyond issues of governance. Ineffectual governance exacerbated them and accelerated the slide. It did not create those structural factors.

Make no mistake about it, Haymarket's point is to run interference. Any fool can clearly see that the actions taken by leadership over a half century ago have absolutely no bearing on the situation today and bringing it into the discussion serves no purpose other than to assign a portion of the blame to "the other side". While you and I know full well that the circumstances which led Detroit to the position it is in today go FAR beyond anything that can be attributed to ideology, Haymarket is simply unable to get passed it. He perceives, and rightly so, that "his team" is taking the brunt of the blame for this and he will inject anything, no matter how obscure and meaningless, to try to deflect as much of that perceived blame as he can.

His posts are nothing more than the defense mechanism of a true hack. That should be obvious to all by this point.
 
If you want to look at this from the partisan hack angle:

And that is just what you did with this stupid video filled with lies and distortions intended to appeal to the far right wing true believers who already think Detroit is an annex of hades and Satan has been the mayor forever. I watched a bit of it and had no trouble showing you the outright LIE that he led with.

You are using words like hack when that is the very evidence that you attempted to pass of on us - the epitome of right wing hackery.

Now if you are serious try to find some respected experts to support your points. So far, you have presented none.
 
And that is just what you did with this stupid video filled with lies and distortions intended to appeal to the far right wing true believers who already think Detroit is an annex of hades and Satan has been the mayor forever. I watched a bit of it and had no trouble showing you the outright LIE that he led with.

You are using words like hack when that is the very evidence that you attempted to pass of on us - the epitome of right wing hackery.

Now if you are serious try to find some respected experts to support your points. So far, you have presented none.

Umm.... I never posted a video. Are you mistaking me for someone else or are you lying... again?
 
Yesterday and also today, I made some references to Detroit's huge educational attainment gap, which has essentially left the city with a disproportionately uncompetitive labor pool. I also pointed out the strong indirect relationship between educational attainment and unemployment in the BLS's monthly employment situation reports. I've made the same point elsewhere.

I was informed that at least one conservative sees a similar picture. After searching for the piece, I found a blog entry by former Heritage Foundation President Edwin Feulner. In part, he wrote:

That city was once the picture of American industrial might. Henry Ford deployed the production line there and helped create the modern middle class. During World War II, more than a third of U.S. war material was manufactured in the city. During the postwar boom, cars made in Detroit embodied the American success story.

Now, the Motor City is collapsing in every conceivable way.

The unemployment rate is 18 percent, meaning almost 1 of every 5 people is out of work. A big reason is that the city's schools have failed. Just 7 percent of eighth-graders are proficient in reading. Only 12 percent of Detroit residents have college degrees. Yet Detroit teachers are the best-paid in the nation, the Mackinac Center for Public Policy says, when their pay is adjusted for purchasing power.


He goes on to cite some outcomes from statewide referenda that could, in his opinion, be helpful to Detroit.

Several points:

1. Feulner demonstrates that not every conservative embraces the narrative that Detroit's fiscal catastrophe is a consequence of partisan governance.

2. He shows a big picture understanding of the relationship between education-employment-outcomes (parenthetical note: his no longer serving as Heritage's President is a loss for the organization, both in terms of a loss of intellectual gravitas and ability to communicate coherent conservative viewpoints). This understanding almost certainly is shared beyond ideological lines and it is one area on which a coherent recovery framework would need to be developed if Detroit is to replenish its devastating loss of human capital so as to return to a growth trajectory (in terms of economic activity, socioeconomic indicators, etc.).

3. It would be interesting to learn more about teacher compensation in Detroit: Did the compensation reflect a risk premium of sorts to induce people to teach in Detroit's schools, were they the result of collective bargaining agreements that were increasingly disconnected from outcomes, were other factors involved?

4. The impact of the referenda outcomes he cites would depend on the factors that led to teacher compensation being what it is. If a risk premium is involved, the referenda outcomes would have little impact. If there were a fundamental disconnect between teacher compensation and outcomes at the school system level, it might offer some benefit (but empirical evidence related to reduced collective bargaining regarding salaries and also organizational outcomes is still very limited, so a large dose of caution is required).
 
since we have devolved the debate to the sharing of personal anecdotes, here is mine
in the tenth year of my retirement; while i do a lot of things, some of them to earn a supplemental income, nothing is required for me to receive my monthly check
defined retirement pension
at age 60, expect to draw it for many more years ... plus social security @age 65

so, if you work for a ****ty organization, your fear is rational
if not, then not

Guess it depends if you feel the Federal government is ****ty or not ;)

And it's not so much a fear as a purposeful skeptisism. My "organization" isn't tied to any product or good, it's contingent on people and politics. We've seen economies collapse, we've seen political pressure for all sorts of things, we see spirlaing up debt, we see questionable numbers regarding solvency. I think there's a fair chance my pension is there when I retire...I think there's at least a REASONABLE chance that it may not be as well, so I just don't bank on it.

That way, if I DO get it, then that just makes things a bit more comfortable.
 
I just watched a clip of Ed Shulz directly blaming Republicans for the fall of Detroit....calling it a "conservative
utopia"

it's probably the funniest, most non factual, idiotic argument i've seen yet on the subject.

hehe, he even blames the emergency manager for people leaving Detroit...seriously, he did.

even funnier, the ticker has all the little idiot twitter comments coming in from people who agree with him.

full retard mode.. activate!

Ed Schultz Identifies Detroit's Fatal Flaw City Became A 'Conservative Utopia' - YouTube

Ed Schiltz is about half a retard isn't he. Right up there with Lawrence ODonnell and the rest of the ilk at MSNBC.
 
Umm.... I never posted a video. Are you mistaking me for someone else or are you lying... again?

the video was from Grant. I thought you were supporting that video in your post 456 since you replied to my post directly about it and you changed the wording of sentences in the film to make it more acceptable.
 
I believe Haymarket's point is that one cannot conclude that Detroit's fiscal catastrophe is solely or largely the result of a given political party's governance. He points out that some of the critical factors e.g., onset of population decline, spanned city administrations from both parties. None of this means that single party domination doesn't have some adverse impact in governance outcomes, as one often sees such outcomes in uncompetitive markets. But the structural factors that led to Detroit's decline and current fiscal catastrophe are largely beyond issues of governance. Ineffectual governance exacerbated them and accelerated the slide. It did not create those structural factors.

On a larger point to rebut the partisan hypothesis, one has witnessed underfunding of pensions in cities and states run by both parties. For example, Illinois faces enormous unfunded pension liabilities. Legal cases concerning underfunding were raised during the 1970s (Democratic governor) and 1990s (Republican governor).

http://cgfa.ilga.gov/upload/2008 january handbook of illinois pension case law.pdf

One can see the appeal for a partisan explanation (aside from posturing for political gain), as such an explanation would seem to offer a simple fix. Unfortunately, convenient as a "simple fix" might be, the problems are of a magnitude and complexity that precludes any simple solutions. Putting the city on a more financially stable path via bankruptcy is probably the easy part of the issue. Restoring an environment of growth, safety, and reduced incidence of socioeconomic problems is the more difficult challenge. Diagnosing the issue as one of partisanship only detracts from gaining the understanding necessary to chart a path of recovery for Detroit.

I am glad to see that some people can both read and think. Yes, that is my point. Glad you got it and only wish that all here were open to seeing the obvious.
 
Make no mistake about it, Haymarket's point is to run interference.

It is interesting that others here saw my real point while others including yourself seemed blind to it in favor of harping the partisan line that Detroit has been ruled by Satan and is everything that is wrong with liberalism.

His posts are nothing more than the defense mechanism of a true hack. That should be obvious to all by this point.

Your view of hackery was NOT shared by Donsutherland1. So your quip about being obvious to all seems to be one huge fail. So one now has to wonder who the real hack is in this whole thing.
 
Yesterday and also today, I made some references to Detroit's huge educational attainment gap, which has essentially left the city with a disproportionately uncompetitive labor pool. I also pointed out the strong indirect relationship between educational attainment and unemployment in the BLS's monthly employment situation reports. I've made the same point elsewhere.

I enjoy your posts. They are well written and thought provoking.

You cited this in your post

A big reason is that the city's schools have failed. Just 7 percent of eighth-graders are proficient in reading. Only 12 percent of Detroit residents have college degrees. Yet Detroit teachers are the best-paid in the nation, the Mackinac Center for Public Policy says, when their pay is adjusted for purchasing power.

I have no idea where the Mackinaw center gets that figure as it is horribly wrong and I would bet a whole lot of money on it. I was part of the union bargaining team in DPS for several contracts. In the 890's and 90's and early 2,000's DPS was always in the bottom one third to one quarter of the tri county districts in SE Michigan. Since I retired some eight years ago, things have only gotten worse as I actually made more money in my final year than people at todays salary schedule due to three consecutive concession contracts.

Here is the latest schedule

http://www.nctq.org/docs/Detroit_Salary_Schedule_as_of_July_13,_2011.pdf

compare to this neighboring community district

http://wwcsd.net/assets/pdfs/transparency-report/WWCOAA-contract-final.pdf

or this neighboring community school district

http://www.gardencity.k12.ny.us/Use...e/2009-10webpostings/June 15, 2010 Agenda.pdf

or this district which abuts Detroit

http://www.dft681.org/documents/DFT_Tentative_Agreement_-_042611.pdf

The Mackinaw Center is a notorious right wing organ that is almost always pushing kool aid for extremism. This is just another example of their dishonesty.
 
Last edited:
So, according to your interpretation of the Michigan constitution, each resident (man, woman or child) of Michigan is now obligated to pony up about $900 to cover the shortfall of Detroit city workers' retirement benefits? When less than 30K people are able to "constitutionally" accrue over $9 billion in debt there just might be a problem with your state's oversight of Detroit's finances. You do realize that comes to an average of each Detroit city retiree being owed $3,000,000. How is that even possible? That is saying that each average Detroit city retiree will get more than $100,000/year for 30 years, assuming that the Detroit city retirement fund now contains nothing at all.

no.the MI constitution does not say any of that. read the damn provision. it's been posted earlier in this thread

what that constitutional language says is that the pensions cannot be diminished while adhering to the state's constitution
that's what it says

now how to do that
don't diminish the pension benefits

which means just that. there are funds to be applied to outstanding debts. apply them here. then take the rest and pay the indebtedness that remains, pennies on the dollar to secured creditors. unsecured creditors ... sorry about that
 
duh!
when a debtor is without the means to pay their just financial obligations, then bankruptcy provisions are established just for such a circumstance

here is a clue - one lost on many others, too - the chapter 9 bankruptcy rules are already established, for instances such as this

such need for a municipality to file for bankruptcy was anticipated

and in bankruptcy actions, there are different tiers of creditors. THAT is what this is about

and if the provisions of the STATE constitution stand up in a FEDERAL bankruptcy court, the pensioners owed their retirement income by the city of detroit will receive their payments in full

and if there is not enough money to pay every other creditor in full - as is expected - some (probably most) of them will have to settle for pennies on the dollar. unsecured creditors will probably not receive those pennies

now come back and make another stupid post that does not advance this debate an iota; it has now become an expected "feature"

Why would bankruptcy need be declared if, as you claim, there is LOTS of money? The fact is that there is not enough money to satisfy debts, making your LOTS of money claim highly foolish. In fact I have never heard of anyone ever claiming bankruptcy that there was still LOTS of money to go around. Now you are talking pennies on the dollar, despite LOTS of money. Democrats do appear to live in Bubbaworld.
 
Why would bankruptcy need be declared if, as you claim, there is LOTS of money? The fact is that there is not enough money to satisfy debts, making your LOTS of money claim highly foolish. In fact I have never heard of anyone ever claiming bankruptcy that there was still LOTS of money to go around. Now you are talking pennies on the dollar, despite LOTS of money. Democrats do appear to live in Bubbaworld.

Where are you reading that the poster said there was LOTS OF MONEY?
 
It is interesting that others here saw my real point while others including yourself seemed blind to it in favor of harping the partisan line that Detroit has been ruled by Satan and is everything that is wrong with liberalism.



Your view of hackery was NOT shared by Donsutherland1. So your quip about being obvious to all seems to be one huge fail. So one now has to wonder who the real hack is in this whole thing.
ONE person didn't immediately dismiss your post as hackery. ONE. This gives you credibility, how?

Even THIS post is a great example of how bad your tactics and style really are. In your own words... "while others including yourself seemed blind to it in favor of harping the partisan line that Detroit has been ruled by Satan and is everything that is wrong with liberalism." I never said this or anything like it but that doesn't stop you from repeating this same UNTRUE synopsis of my responses on this thread, does it. Save for the few posts of mine that pointed out how ridiculously partisan YOUR posts were becoming, I have pretty much stuck to facts with references to back them up. What you are attempting to do now is to assign to me the partisan hack position that you have taken. It is, of course, laughable and anyone reading along can easily spot this.

You can continue down this road if you like but you should know that I'm not going to let is slide. I will point it out and continue to expose your dishonesty each and every time you attempt it.
 
ONE person didn't immediately dismiss your post as hackery.

Besides yourself, who did dismiss it as hackery along with evidence to show it was wrong?

I will wait for the answer.

by the way - you should learn how to properly count. Several people here have been supportive of positions I have taken in this thread and the argument I have put forth.

What you are attempting to do now is to assign to me the partisan hack position that you have taken.

I have not attempting to do anything other than tell the truth using the facts. If you are not comfortable with the image you have created for yourself with you unfounded claims and allegations, perhaps you should first look at your own tactics?

I will point it out and continue to expose your dishonesty each and every time you attempt it.

Well you have not done it yet but I look forward to the attempt with tremendous anticipation. :2wave:
 
Last edited:
Besides yourself, who did dismiss it as hackery along with evidence to show it was wrong?

I will wait for the answer.



I have not attempting to do anything other than tell the truth using the facts. If you are not comfortable with the image you have created for yourself with you unfounded claims and allegations, perhaps you should first look at your own tactics?

I caught your post in it's entirety before you went back and deleted the part in bold. Just wanted to preserve it.
 
Where are you reading that the poster said there was LOTS OF MONEY?

Sure. Here it is.

there is LOTS of money
just not enough to pay all the debts
so bankruptcy is the way to determine who gets paid and who does not get paid in full
and according to the state's constitution, the pensioners will get paid in full
those not protected by constitutional provisions - not so much. they will get what ever is left to divide for themselves
 
Back
Top Bottom