• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

haymarket said:
I was referring to posters on this topic taking the position that bondholders and banks should come before pensioners.

that is NOT a red herring. It is reality.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately for your point of view, that may be what happens. Municipal bonds are federally governed securities (Miami just had an SEC action filed against them) and bankruptcy is also a Federal action controlled by the Bankruptcy courts so perhaps the supremacy clause could be used to trump the provision of the Michigan Constitution. Stranger things have happened. Ironically it was many who advocated that the automakers go through normal bankruptcy proceedings rather than the federal government actions.
 
AliHajiSheik said:
Unfortunately for your point of view, that may be what happens. Municipal bonds are federally governed securities (Miami just had an SEC action filed against them) and bankruptcy is also a Federal action controlled by the Bankruptcy courts so perhaps the supremacy clause could be used to trump the provision of the Michigan Constitution. Stranger things have happened. Ironically it was many who advocated that the automakers go through normal bankruptcy proceedings rather than the federal government actions.
Click to expand...

Would you favor the federal courts using that provision to trump the State Constitution?
 
Hicup said:
Wow, I thought 'ok well maybe I can expect a few typos and someone is just trying to make more than what it is', BUT, reading those emails from him is just astoundingly scary!


Tim-
Click to expand...


They read like they were written by a spambot, don't they? :lol:
 
jmotivator said:
They read like they were written by a spambot, don't they? :lol:
Click to expand...

I don't care if the guy is a "good guy" or "dedicated" in his role at the school board, he should be able to read and write if he wants to head the "school board", PERIOD!

Tim-
 
haymarket said:
If libertarians and right wingers take positions to screw the average worker - that is on them - not me. I just let the chips fall as they may.
Click to expand...
1. that's not the average worker, it's the average public/unionized worker. Which are typically way above the average private worker in pay. Ouch! That's on you, not me. 2. Tying their job/benefits to your political party through law is indeed on you, and ensures you buy a significant portion of those votes because who in their right mind would vote for someone that wanted to reduce their work quality of life or pay? You create the conflict of interest for political and monetary gain, it's most Certainly not the fault of your opponents....
 
Hicup said:
I don't care if the guy is a "good guy" or
"dedicated" in his role at the school board, he should be able to read and write if he wants to head the "school board", PERIOD!

Tim-
Click to expand...

We need to listen to him, " he got a 3.0"...
 
I know this thread is long and others may have done this already, but let me offer a BIG congratulations to the left in this country for the economic destruction of Detroit. Complete political domination of a city. A shining example of utopia, according to the left. Just make note, folks, this is what the left is aiming to do to the rest of the country. Now we have a solid example of how the left's policies will work (or not).

Oh, and the scary thing is, they could see this coming and absolutely refused to do anything about it. And nice job to the voters, you can't claim you were fooled by these people right up to the end.
 
Anthony60 said:
I know this thread is long and others


may have done this already, but let me offer a BIG congratulations to the left in this country for the economic destruction of Detroit. Complete political domination of a city. A shining example of utopia, according to the left. Just make note, folks, this is what the left is aiming to do to the rest of the country. Now we have a solid example of how the left's policies will work (or not).

Oh, and the scary thing is, they could see this coming and absolutely refused to do anything about it. And nice job to the voters, you can't claim you were fooled by these people right up to the end.
Click to expand...

What truly made Detroits issues come to a head was ironically the election of Barrack Obama.

He's extended a recession out another 5 going on 8 years and any City in trouble in 2008 really has no hope now of climbing out.

Delicious irony and Detroits just the First big City, it wont be the last.
 
Mach said:
1. that's not the average worker, it's the average public/unionized worker. Which are typically way above the average private worker in pay. .
Click to expand...

By all means - do present your data on Detroit workers being "way above the average private worker" for the same work and with the same qualifications and I will gladly examine it.
 
Fenton said:
Delicious irony and Detroits just the First big City, it wont be the last.
Click to expand...
So Detroit's problems make you happy? It sure would be nice for partisanship to be replaced with concern for the common good.
 
fmw said:
What matters is how he manages, not how
he composes emails. Hiring is a difficult and risky business. People who hire have a tendency to hire based on what someone has done rather than what someone can do. The latter is difficult to determine so the former gets substituted.
Click to expand...

Oh thats TOTAL BS. Such is the problem with this Country that so many are willing to justify down failure.

There are people actually graduating High School who are totally iliterate.

There is no excuse for it, zero.
 
fmw said:
So Detroit's problems make you happy? It sure would be nice for partisanship to be replaced with concern for the common good.
Click to expand...

Those with some economic sense have seen this coming for years and its difficult not to say "I told you so!" The same thing is happening in Washington where incompetents are elected only because of their party affiliations. In a few years you'll hear the same 'I told you so's' so you should prepare yourself for them now.
 
I justified nothing. I just refused to accept that his inability to communicate coherently should be the only reason to not hire him.
 
fmw said:
What matters is how he manages, not how he composes emails. Hiring is a difficult and risky business. People who hire have a tendency to hire based on what someone has done rather than what someone can do. The latter is difficult to determine so the former gets substituted.
Click to expand...


I think it was a pretty good indicator of how he would lead. That is to say: extremely poorly.
 
Grant said:
Those with some economic sense have seen this coming for years and its difficult not to say "I told you so!" The same thing is happening in Washington where incompetents are elected only because of their party affiliations. In a few years you'll hear the same 'I told you so's' so you should prepare yourself for them now.
Click to expand...

I don't think it is the people in the federal government that are the problem. They are unable to be effective because of partisanship and corruption. It doesns't matter who you put in office. It will be the same until the system is fixed, proper incentives put in place and partisanship brought under control.
 
jmotivator said:
I think it was a pretty good indicator of how he would lead. That is to say: extremely poorly.
Click to expand...

Why do you think that? What does communication style have to do with leadership ability? I don't know the man or anything about him other than what I read here. What I read here isn't a valid reason for anything.
 
fmw said:
So Detroit's problems make you happy? It sure would be nice for partisanship to be
replaced with concern for the common good.
Click to expand...

Oh for F*** sake man. If those people had any concern for the common good they wouldn't have elected incompetent Liberals to run and steal from their City.

They wouldn't have elected a Presisent who had ZERO qualifications and a radical past.

Liberalism doesn't need to be tweaked or manipulated it needs to be CRUSHED, done away with so spare me your false concern over the Common good.

They are victims of a desperately corrupt ideology sitting in a disintegrating City with their hands out and yes, every time I see Democrats fail it brings a smile to my face.

Those people pushed aside the "common good" years ago so they could focus on their greed and now they're paying for it.
 
fmw said:
I justified nothing. I just refused to accept that his inability to communicate
coherently should be the only reason to not hire him.
Click to expand...

Your'e justifying the lowering of the general standards of education and failing to realize it's a huge part of Detroits problem.

Your'e justifying a man who heads up the Detroit School System who is practically functionally illiterate.

It's surreal. One indicator after another was ignored for years as that City slid down into bankruptcy and we STILL have people in denial.
 
fmw said:
Why do you think that? What does communication style have to do with leadership ability? I don't know the man or anything about him other than what I read here. What I read here isn't a valid reason for anything.
Click to expand...


I sea wat yor said. Hes ableness to word shoonent meen are openyan is lowed.
 
justabubba said:
here is a hint
obviously you need it
this means that within the bankruptcy, the pensioners cannot be compelled to take a financial haircut
not true of other creditors
Click to expand...

So if it's Unconstitutional to cut pensions because the Michigan Consitution prohibits it, why is it ok to default on Bonds, when the Michigan Constitution prohibits it?

"Rights and obligations to remain unimpaired.
All rights acquired under Sections 27 and 28 of Article X of the Constitution of 1908, by
holders of bonds heretofore issued, and all obligations assumed by the state or any school
district under these sections, shall remain unimpaired."

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/constitution.pdf
 
fmw said:
I don't think it is the people in the federal government that are the problem. They are unable to be effective because of partisanship and corruption. It doesns't matter who you put in office. It will be the same until the system is fixed, proper incentives put in place and partisanship brought under control.
Click to expand...

There must have been many who wanted to get rid of the corruption but were powerless. Most just left instead.

An honest media may have helped but they seem to have become part of the problem.
 
haymarket said:
Perhaps the judge read the Michigan Constitution?

STATE CONSTITUTION (EXCERPT) CONSTITUTION OF MICHIGAN OF 1963
§ 24 Public pension plans and retirement systems, obligation.
Sec. 24. The accrued financial benefits of each pension plan and retirement system of the state and its political subdivisions shall be a contractual obligation thereof which shall not be diminished or impaired thereby.
Click to expand...

Which still doesn't change the reality that THERE IS NO MONEY!

When are you going to get that through your head?
 
haymarket said:
The pensions would be backed by the State of Michigan. And they are NOT in danger of bankruptcy.
Click to expand...

The State of Michigan isn't obligated to pay for the debts of Detroit, any more than they are obligated to pay for the mortgages of the people of Michigan. They didn't sign the contracts, they are not financially responsible. Try again.
 
haymarket said:
Would you favor the federal courts using that provision to trump the State Constitution?
Click to expand...

I don't know. Bankruptcy courts typically have a lot of latitude in their rulings. My concern is that I don't know the alternatives being proposed by those who filed to block the bankruptcy. It would seem to me that if the city can't pay and the item in the state constitution says that public pensioners must be kept whole, then they would want to have the state pay up. How would that go over in the rest of Michigan?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom