• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

Arbo said:
Life is a risk. You risk when you put money in a private fund, you risk when you trust a government to follow through with a promise. They lose, so freaking what. That's what they get for electing idiots over and over. Deal with it, just like the private sector does.
Click to expand...

The government does protect people in private pension plans, it's called PBGC. That does not apply to public pensions.
 
Woodman909 said:
this is what happens when the takers outnumber the givers... democratic Detroit ran out of pockets to pick to fund their municipal trough and the unions appear to have dug their own graves.
Click to expand...

No, that is what happens when you depress wages. They are doing that with current people who get a job in the auto industry in Detroit. You will grow a whole generation that use to be middle class into the poor working class.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
No, that is what happens when you depress wages. They are doing that with current people who get a job in the auto industry in Detroit. You will grow a whole generation that use to be middle class into the poor working class.
Click to expand...

Depress wages? Can we at least get a consistent story? We go from Unions were great as they brought up wages, to depressed wages.
 
tech30528 said:
Let the unions cover the pensions.

BTW, you remember Enron? My parents lost about 1/3 of their retirement funds. The teacher's union got bailed out over that by the federal government. My parents did not. It's time for the government to stop picking the winners and losers.
Click to expand...

I see no proof of this at all. Proof please.
 
Arbo said:
Depress wages? Can we at least get a consistent story? We go from Unions were great as they brought up wages, to depressed wages.
Click to expand...

Yes, at one time people who worked in the auto industry in Detroit made a middle income living. New hires no longer will get that option. They are being hired at half the price as the older workers which depresses wages in the area.
 
haymarket said:
As per the news yesterday, a judge in Lansing views that much differently.

It never ceases to amaze me how libertarians - when they have the choice - will almost always opt for the common man being screwed and then find a rationalization for it.

And then you wonder why you cannot even get 1% of the vote for President of the USA. :doh Its really not hard to figure out. :roll:
Click to expand...

yup, the Obama honoring judge found it unconstitutional.... as expected.

so when i specifically say i don't want these retirees to feel any pain, you take away that i'm in favor of screwing the common man.... mmmk... that makes perfect sense.




it's true, the LP is way behind hte Democratic party on hte scoreboard.

y'all have lots of presidential wins... we got none.
y'all have lots of elected office wins at every level of government.. we have very little in comparison.

and of course, y'all have utterly ruined a major US city... we haven't.

congratulations on your accomplishments!
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
and what about the people whose pensions are at risk? do we have to give them nothing?
Click to expand...

Ask the clownish politicians that ran Detroit in the ground.

Looks like government has to be run like a business afterall.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
Yes, at one time people who worked in the auto industry in Detroit made a middle income living. New hires no longer will get that option. They are being hired at half the price as the older workers which depresses wages in the area.
Click to expand...

maybe city officials should have .. oh, i dunno.. found a way to attract and keep those businesses and the residents?....providing a hostile business environment wasn't a very good plan,as we all can see.
 
Thrilla said:
maybe city officials should have .. oh, i dunno.. found a way to attract and keep those businesses and the residents?....providing a hostile business environment wasn't a very good plan,as we all can see.
Click to expand...

I think they did by lowering wages. That really is the point. Of course, the consequence of that is growing a whole new work force of people working for a living on the brink of poverty. You won't be growing a middle class.
 
="http://www.usatoday.com/story/new...lected-to-oversee-detroit-bankruptcy/2570417/

This is who will (should) decide if the bankruptcy filing is going to proceed. If he decides it cannot, the city can appeal.

I worked in a legal department as a Bankruptcy Specialist for 11 years. Though I was not a lawyer, I did serve to represent various creditors interests after Bankruptcy plans were approved and proceeding through restructure/trustee payments. I thought I would share a bit of Chapter 9 Bankruptcy law regarding union employees and pensioners:

The city is not required to rejecting collective bargaining agreements in section 1113 of the Bankruptcy Code, (collective bargaining with the union) it is not applicable in Chapter 9. The city only needs to prove that the collective bargaining agreement burdens the estate, after scrutiny the equities balance in favor of contract rejection, and that reasonable efforts to negotiate a voluntary modification have been made and are not likely to produce a timely and satisfactory solution.

On pensions: Some in the legal profession consider pensions as secured, but the majority view is that pensions and general obligation bonds fall under the definition of general unsecured claims in a Chapter 9 bankruptcy. So this is up in the air.

As far as unions go... no comment.
 
Last edited:
rabbitcaebannog said:
Yes, at one time people who worked in the auto industry in Detroit made a middle income living. New hires no longer will get that option. They are being hired at half the price as the older workers which depresses wages in the area.
Click to expand...

But, I thought the savior Obama fixed all that auto stuff.
 
funny thing is that the reason the judge ruled the bankruptcy filing unconstitutional was because it violated a provision of the michigan state constitution. anyone know what the judge based its ruling on.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
funny thing is that the reason the judge ruled the bankruptcy filing unconstitutional was because it violated a provision of the michigan state constitution. anyone know what the judge based its ruling on.
Click to expand...

from the USA today article

Aquilina said the Michigan Constitution prohibits actions that will lessen the pension benefits of public employees, including those in the city of Detroit. Snyder and Orr violated the constitution by going ahead with the bankruptcy filing, because they know reductions in those benefits will result, Aquilina said.
Click to expand...
 
Thrilla said:
yup, the Obama honoring judge found it unconstitutional.... as expected.

so when i specifically say i don't want these retirees to feel any pain, you take away that i'm in favor of screwing the common man.... mmmk... that makes perfect sense.




it's true, the LP is way behind hte Democratic party on hte scoreboard.

y'all have lots of presidential wins... we got none.
y'all have lots of elected office wins at every level of government.. we have very little in comparison.

and of course, y'all have utterly ruined a major US city... we haven't.

congratulations on your accomplishments!
Click to expand...

Ruined a city? What nonsense.

Why do you continue to beat the stupid political drum of blaming the Democratic Party when the real factors of Detroit's decline have nothing to do with who was the mayor and what his party was? btw - not to blow your mind with reality or anything - but the elections for mayor of Detroit are NON PARTISAN.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
I think they did by lowering wages. That really is the point. Of course, the consequence of that is growing a whole new work force of people working for a living on the brink of poverty. You won't be growing a middle class.
Click to expand...

whatever steps, if any, were taken to attract and keep new business ventures were an abysmal failure.

there will be no middle class growth until the business environment improves.... it's simply a horrible business environment to operate in, and it's getting worse, day by day.
why pay exorbitant tax rates on income, property, and inventory when you can choose from a long list of other places that don't have these?

unfortunately, business now also has to deal with a deeply flawed talent pool ... the good talent moved away long ago

it's a mess...it's gonna take a lot of creativity, and a lot of hard work and sacrifice to bring that city back.... the Detroit of the 40's is dead, folks need to understand that and work in the NOW.. stuff that was good in the 40's was good in the 40's, but today, it's dead.... for better or worse, it's a entirely different world, 1940's rules don't apply.
 
haymarket said:
Ruined a city? What nonsense.

Why do you continue to beat the stupid political drum of blaming the Democratic Party when the real factors of Detroit's decline have nothing to do with who was the mayor and what his party was? btw - not to blow your mind with reality or anything - but the elections for mayor of Detroit are NON PARTISAN.
Click to expand...

yes, ruined a city..

you can try to pretend Detroit is anything but a Democratic stronghold and has been for decades....that's fine

the fact remains, the Detroit city government has been SOLID blue since the mid-60's.... y'all own it... and y'all broke it.... and y'all have been found to be wholly incapable of fixing it.
 
Those here of a rabid partisan nature who keep wanting to scream ITS THE DAMN DEMOCRATS may want a dose of reality. From 1950 to 1961, Detroit had two mayors - Cobo and Mariani. Both were members of the Republican Party. During that same period, Detroit saw the beginning of its decline and lost a full 10% of its population.

So much for the partisan blame game.

Albert Cobo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Thrilla said:
yes, ruined a city..

you can try to pretend Detroit is anything but a Democratic stronghold and has been for decades....that's fine

the fact remains, the Detroit city government has been SOLID blue since the mid-60's.... y'all own it... and y'all broke it.... and y'all have been found to be wholly incapable of fixing it.
Click to expand...

See the above post and see the facts. Sorry to rain on your parade but Cobo and Mariani were both republicans. And Detroit lost nearly 200,000 people during their reign. And that trend established under their rule did not abate once the slide down the hill was started.

I know its a real bitch when facts bite you in the ass like that. :roll::doh

And of course, the loss of tax base, the loss of manufacturing, the loss of jobs, racial polarization.... had nothing to do with it as it was all politics. :dohHow completely absurd. :shock:

But the far right likes to hate both Detroit and Democrats so its a no brain twofer for them. Emphasis on no brain. :roll:
 
Last edited:
Thrilla said:
whatever steps, if any, were taken to attract and keep new business ventures were an abysmal failure.

there will be no middle class growth until the business environment improves.... it's simply a horrible business environment to operate in, and it's getting worse, day by day.
why pay exorbitant tax rates on income, property, and inventory when you can choose from a long list of other places that don't have these?

unfortunately, business now also has to deal with a deeply flawed talent pool ... the good talent moved away long ago

it's a mess...it's gonna take a lot of creativity, and a lot of hard work and sacrifice to bring that city back.... the Detroit of the 40's is dead, folks need to understand that and work in the NOW.. stuff that was good in the 40's was good in the 40's, but today, it's dead.... for better or worse, it's a entirely different world, 1940's rules don't apply.
Click to expand...

Hey, I'll agree with you that Michigan's tax system needs a overhaul. It is one of the most regressive tax systems in the US. But, the ironic thing is business is starting to build there and more people are becoming employed but at low wages.

Nearly a third of its workforce earn low wages.

"Of the seven occupations that employ the greatest number of workers in Michigan, five have a median wage that will not bring a family of four out of poverty, according to the MLHS.
These occupations are: retail salespeople, cashiers, food preparation and service workers, waiters and waitresses and janitors and cleaners." 27% of Michigan workers in low-wage jobs | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

Many of these jobs did earn the median income in this country at one time. With the demise of unions, don't expect working conditions for many people who work in these fields to improve or for a strong middle class to grow. We are just growing more poverty.
 
haymarket said:
Those here of a rabid partisan nature who keep wanting to scream ITS THE DAMN DEMOCRATS may want a dose of reality. From 1950 to 1961, Detroit had two mayors - Cobo and Mariani. Both were members of the Republican Party. During that same period, Detroit saw the beginning of its decline and lost a full 10% of its population.

So much for the partisan blame game.

Albert Cobo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

yes, there were republicans in the 60's... job well done in proving what I had already said.
 
Thrilla said:
yes, there were republicans in the 60's... job well done in proving what I had already said.
Click to expand...

What you said made no sense in the first place nor did you offer any verifiable evidence for what you said.

Again I have provided you with verifiable evidence that the great slide downwards of Detroit began under two Republican mayors. So if you want to blame a party - begin there.

I also have stated that it is outright ridiculous to affix the blame on a party since the real factors of Detroits decline have little to do with partisan politics.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom