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Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

So lets start out with first things first Maggie. The contention that unions got everything they wanted is clearly BS.

Agreed?

The contention that the city gave them everything they wanted so they could stay in office and win elections is also clearly BS.

Agreed?

I'll agree with both of those things in fact. Negotiating always demands that we ask for more than we expect.

In spirit? I agree with Woodman.
 
Perhaps YOU can enlighten us as to how Detroit is in the predicament it is in?

It has been well documented.

In the last half century Detroit has lost well more than half of its population. 1.8 million down to just a tad over 700,000. The population that remains tends to be much more lower income than the population was in 1950 - its high point of 1.8 million residents.

Detroit lost much of its tax base when not only these residents left but the businesses which employed hundreds of thousands of Detroit's left also.

The poor who remained absorbed a higher percentage of city revenues than the previous population had.

This is no secret.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/articl...9781/detroit-in-bankruptcy-how-did-it-happen#


WHY DID IT HAPPEN?

It took decades of decay to bring down the once-mighty industrial giant that put the world on wheels. The city grew to 1.8 million people in the 1950s, luring them with plentiful jobs that paid good wages to stamp out automobiles for sale across the globe. But like many American cities, Detroit's fall began late that decade as developers starting building suburbs. Then came the 1967 riots that accelerated the number of white residents who moved to the cities north of Eight Mile Road, considered the region's racial dividing line.

At the same time, auto companies began opening plants in other cities, and the rise of autos imported from Japan started to cut the size of the U.S. auto industry. Detroit's property values fell, tax revenue dropped, police couldn't control a growing murder rate and many middle-class blacks fled the city for safer suburbs with better schools. By 2009, the auto industry collapsed along with the economy as a whole, eventually pulling down the city with it. Government corruption under former Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick made things worse.

DID THE AUTO INDUSTRY'S FALL DRAG DOWN DETROIT?

It's a big factor. The city is littered with abandoned factories built in the postwar boom years, most of which have multiple stories. As the Japanese auto invasion began cutting into Detroit's sales, General Motors, Chrysler, Ford and hundreds of auto parts companies looked outside the city to build one-story plants that could handle modern assembly lines. With every downturn, more companies abandoned the city, leaving the hulking buildings to squatters. Detroit's tax base continued to erode. By the time the auto industry melted down in 2009, only a few factories from GM and Chrysler were left. GM is the only one with headquarters in Detroit, though it has huge research and testing centers with thousands of jobs outside the city.

btw - Crain's is a pro business rather conservative publication.

and more if you need it on the racial factors that contributed to the heavy population loss

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...068-11e2-bed3-b9b6fe264871_story.html?hpid=z1
 
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don't we owe the people who worked all their life, a pension? or do we give them a iou?

We? Neither you or I are citizens of Detroit nor their elected representatives.

So no, I don't owe the people the city of Detroit promised pensions to jack ****, and neither do you.

These ridiculous pension plans are part of why all these cities and states in the North are doing so poorly budget-wise, and something's gotta give.
 
It has been well documented.

In the last half century Detroit has lost well more than half of its population. 1.8 million down to just a tad over 700,000. The population that remains tends to be much more lower income than the population was in 1950 - its high point of 1.8 million residents.

Detroit lost much of its tax base when not only these residents left but the businesses which employed hundreds of thousands of Detroit's left also.

The poor who remained absorbed a higher percentage of city revenues than the previous population had.

This is no secret.

Detroit in bankruptcy: How did it happen? | Crain's Detroit Business




btw - Crain's is a pro business rather conservative publication.

and more if you need it

Detroit’s demise was decades in the making - The Washington Post

Hay- it is my understanding that Detroit is making somewhat of a comeback. Young people seem to want urban settings. Better for the environment, less commuting time, shops, theater etc.
 
It has been well documented.

In the last half century Detroit has lost well more than half of its population. 1.8 million down to just a tad over 700,000. The population that remains tends to be much more lower income than the population was in 1950 - its high point of 1.8 million residents.

Detroit lost much of its tax base when not only these residents left but the businesses which employed hundreds of thousands of Detroit's left also.

The poor who remained absorbed a higher percentage of city revenues than the previous population had.

This is no secret.

What you have said is certainly true. But that is not all there is to consider.

There is intense discussion that Detroit owes a large amount in pensions and other retirement benefits, hence contributing to their decision to declare bankruptcy. Why , during this exodus of people moving out of the city, did the city government take steps to reduce their liability for these expenses? Why did they not push back hard against the unions? Why did they spend $100 more than they took in? Can you honestly say the unions are not contributors to this terrible situation?
 
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I'll agree with both of those things in fact. Negotiating always demands that we ask for more than we expect.

In spirit? I agree with Woodman.

I will go with the facts Maggie and leave the spirits to after 8 PM.


even on a Saturday night. ;)
 
I will go with the facts Maggie and leave the spirits to after 8 PM.


even on a Saturday night. ;)

I think it is about 10PM in Hong Kong. Bottoms up!
 
The 18 billion takes in future pension payments that will occur monthly over many many many years. As such, it is NOT money owned right now.

yes, it's called a long term debt....

Detroit can barely manage their short term debt( $350 million dollar deficit)... and now we are see that it will be impossible for them to manage their long term debt... Paul wants paid, and Peter has no more money to rob

pensions and retiree healthcare is a large portion of the long term debt... about half, according to reports
taxpayers are now footing the bill for 3 governments worth of workers... while only 1 government worth of workers is actually working.
decades of utter incompetence ,mismanagement, and lack of vision brought this about.. your corrupt party brethren did this.

someone had better get their head out of their ass and figure how to reinvent the city... but one thing is for certain, the democratic party way of running Detroit has been an objective failure... they must change their ways, from top to bottom (fiscally speaking).. they must entertain the notion that fiscal sanity is paramount and their ideology should not get in the way of attracting new business and investment to the city.
they need an total administrative makeover.. a whole new mindset.

my pops was born in Detroit, and as a child I lived there ... I have a personal affinity for both the state and the city... it's actually painful to me to see utter incompetence and corrupt mismanagement ruin it...my head says somebody with integrity can set a better course.. a sustainable prosperous course.. but my gut wants to run around gathering up past and present Democratic party elected officials, grab them by the neck, show them the pain and misery their collective incompetence and corruption has wrought, and demand, with the threat of great bodily harm, they exhaust everything they have to fix it, ideology be damned.
 
But they won't shoot it and move on. So how does one resurrect a dying city?

Jack Kemp had a plan years ago..

he had a short term tax holiday plan( 3-5 years) crafted to attract business and commercial investment
conditional tax incentives ( such as a reduced capital gains tax for start ups, reduced income tax scheme for startups, etc, profitability tax breaks for those who reinvest in the business, property tax breaks for new business, etc)

it was ignored... tax increases and regulations that resulting in providing incentives for business to get the **** outta dodge won the day.
 
yes, it's called a long term debt.....

Which is not incurred in part for years and decades to come when the ability to pay those debts may be different than it is today.

So why include it in bankruptcy today?
 
Which is not incurred in part for years and decades to come when the ability to pay those debts may be different than it is today.

So why include it in bankruptcy today?
because they are unfunded liabilities..debts.. and we are talking about bankruptcy, where an entity seeks relief from creditors

pension funds are creditors, ergo, they will be included in any bankruptcy filings.
the promise to pay was made in perpetuity, thus, that amount is consider part of the total amount, regardless if it happens today or next week.
it sounds nice to promise money forever, but when the SHTF, you're still on the hook for all that money.
that kinda like saying to the place you got your auto loan that you are filing bankruptcy, but only on the amount that is owed this year..the rest of the debt, due in subsequent years, won't be touched.

i guess the city could try to get away with canceling those pensions and benefits for all those years to come and then only file on the current liabilities... that's certainly one way to reduce the debt total... but we both know that wouldn't pass state constitutional muster... it would be a ****storm of the highest order.


what the future may hold is not a valid reason for not filing bankruptcy when it is realized debts can't be repaid.
I mean, if i went broke today and filed bankruptcy, would it be smart to not include my largest debts on the premise that my fortune might change someday?

not listing debts,especially major debts, kinda defeats the purpose of bankruptcy....ya might as well tell the city to not file bankruptcy on the premise that maybe, hopefully, someday, they might be able to pay their debts.. just go ahead and go further into debt in hopes their fortune will change.
 
because they are unfunded liabilities..debts.. and we are talking about bankruptcy, where an entity seeks relief from creditors

pension funds are creditors, ergo, they will be included in any bankruptcy filings.

As per the news yesterday, a judge in Lansing views that much differently.

It never ceases to amaze me how libertarians - when they have the choice - will almost always opt for the common man being screwed and then find a rationalization for it.

And then you wonder why you cannot even get 1% of the vote for President of the USA. :doh Its really not hard to figure out. :roll:
 
Please provide verifiable evidence for this claim.

Wait, you are asking for someone else to give 'evidence'? Now that's a hoot.

Thank you for clearly indicating you are unable to substantiate your claim with any evidence.

Ah, and when faced with it, do the norm, and deny it. Some things never change.


Let Detroit and it's unions ROT. It is what they deserve.
 
Wait, you are asking for someone else to give 'evidence'? Now that's a hoot.

What are you ranting about? I have provided evidence for everything asked of me.

If you say otherwise, just present where I failed to do so. Either that or man up and retract your smart aleck comment.
 
There...is...no...money.

Democrats just don't get the concept.
They have their priorities in order.

“It’s cheating, sir, and it’s cheating good people who work,” the judge told assistant Attorney General Brian Devlin on Friday, adding that she will ensure that President Barack Obama gets a copy of her order. “It’s also not honoring the president, who took [Detroit’s auto companies] out of bankruptcy.”


Read more: Judge orders Detroit bankruptcy to be withdrawn, claims it's 'not honoring the president' | The Daily Caller
 
What are you ranting about? I have provided evidence for everything asked of me.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man, thanks for that belly laugh. Great stuff.
 
If your comparison is accurate , the following things would have to happen:

1- 60% of people will move out of the USA.
2- the main businesses in the USA would also have to move out
3- the majority of jobs in the USA would have to be lost
4- the tax base in the USA would have to decrease by 2/3 of what it is now

When those things happen, you will have a solid comparison.

It seems that the only thing that hasn't happened out of those 4 points is 60% of people moving out of the US. Most of our major business manufacture their products overseas (which also reduces our tax base) and we have a large amount of unemployed people.

Not really hitting the same numbers, but we have been on our way.
 
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man, thanks for that belly laugh. Great stuff.

Just like I said - you are woefully impotent to back up the allegations your mouth makes and your hands type.
 
It seems that the only thing that hasn't happened out of those 4 points is 60% of people moving out of the US. Most of our major business manufacture their products overseas (which also reduces our tax base) and we have a large amount of unemployed people.

Not really hitting the same numbers, but we have been on our way.

When it hits the level of Detroit, then the poster has a point. Until then, its over the top hyperbole bordering on the irrational.
 
Just like I said - you are woefully impotent to back up the allegations your mouth makes and your hands type.

Your history of not backing up what you say and being ignorant to factual material is all across the forums, from this topic to gun rights. Any who have paid attention know it. And you do too, no matter how much you try to spin and deny it.
 
The bankruptcy is a result of the Unions failing to negotiate a settlement regarding the pensions. The emergency manager attempted to negotiate with them in order to make sure they got "something" but union bosses stomped their feet, stuck fingers in their ears, and said no.

No, that is not what happened. Orr filed bankruptcy without negotiating.
 
Your history of not backing up what you say and being ignorant to factual material is all across the forums, from this topic to gun rights. Any who have paid attention know it. And you do too, no matter how much you try to spin and deny it.

But yet you are woefully impotent to actually provide a verifiable link or proof of even a single occurrence of the falsehood that you allege.

And that says it all.

But do prove me wrong. This time back up the checks you write but are unable to ever cash. Prove me wrong with evidence and chuck your empty self serving pontifications.
 
No, the bankruptcy is a result of major economic and social shifts occurring over a period of several decades.

And the economic meltdown that occurred brought a lot of cities to the brink because many never fully recovered.
 
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