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Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions[W:240]

Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

And so we should let this kid grow more and more into a human being so that the mother can kill it all because she's poor? Are these super poor women magically going to find the money at week 21?

Well and economic hardship could well happen after the baby is born.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

A federal court has already rules against the restriction that only hospital-allowed doctors may do abortions. The language also could prevent clinics from preventing MAPs to women, including rape victims - thus only leaving the alternative of abortion later - thus a law that potentially increases the number of abortions.

Politicians, however, will waste any amount of money to gain favor with their primary voter base, which for Republicans is the religious rightwing.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

I would seriously advise studying the art of debate.
I'm well aware of the art of debate and I'm also aware that denying an argument because you don't like it is not a valid tactic.
Everything you're posting is foolish nonsense that doesn't correlate in any logical way to the abortion debate.
Of course it does.
Your analogy fails because the logic is asinine.
The logic is deliberately similar to the logic of the pro-life crowd. If you think it's asinine, then we can agree on that.
You cannot argue against an opinion until you first learn to understand and respect the basis for that opinion.
It's not your opinion, but rather the logic in defending this Texas law that I'm challenging. I completely understand the position of pro-life, but the logic supporting this bill is, as you aptly described, asinine.
Your posts clearly show a lack of understanding.
This is what they call irony.

How about no abortion for any reason until you're 18, no elective abortion until you're 21, and if you want to tell people about your abortion then you have to get a permit just like for carrying a gun, which means FBI fingerprints, background check, a 16 hour class, everything, just to carry an opinion about abortion.

And you can't open-carry that opinion in TX even with a permit, such as a political t-shirt. Your opinion has to be concealed at all times and you must inform a cop that you have an opinion on abortion.

Business owners can post a no-choice sign on their front door and if you then enter their business with an opinion on abortion, or of you've ever had an abortion, than you can be arrested for criminal trespassing, even if you a permit to have an opinion on abortion, are carrying your opinion concealed, and are in all other ways obeying the law and conducting yourself peacefully.
I'm cannot begin to tell you how amusing I find your post here. You're arguing against gun control...I'm arguing against abortion. You're creating an example to counter the tongue-in-cheek position I created as an example.

Just to be clear, I am not advocating the position on gun control I took. Rather I was using similar reasoning as the pro-life people in this thread were and applied it to a different situation.
Well then lets try to "equate" a specific constituional right to keep and bear arms to a specific constitutional right to access abortion freely for the first trimester, a limitted abortion right for the second trimester and virtually no abortion right thereafter. To buy a handgun in Texas is easy (unless you had a DWI or some other criminal infraction) and so is getting an abortion within the first 12 weeks, to carry that handgun requires taking a class, passing a test and paying a large fee but to get an abortion after that 12th week through the 20th week is still just as easy. Only very limitted places may sell guns/ammo commercially, they must meet very strict conditions and keep exacting records - so must commercial abortion facilities under the new law. You see, "reasonable restrictions" are all still in the hands of the majority - despite any constituional implications to the contrary.
I'm not trying to compare guns and abortion. I'm simply using the logic to put forth a law I'm guessing you and many other pro-lifers would disagree with.

As I said before...When you understand why you have trouble with the reasoning behind the position, perhaps you'll gain some insight into the problems pro-choice has with the logic of pro-life in this thread.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

Which justifies why a lot of women aren't able to afford them in the 20th weeks allotted.

Really? So everyone who claims that the vast majority of abortions occur well before 20 weeks is wrong?
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

A federal court has already rules against the restriction that only hospital-allowed doctors may do abortions. The language also could prevent clinics from preventing MAPs to women, including rape victims - thus only leaving the alternative of abortion later - thus a law that potentially increases the number of abortions.

Obviously that's not true otherwise you'd support the bill.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

Really? So everyone who claims that the vast majority of abortions occur well before 20 weeks is wrong?

No, you're purposely acting as obtuse as possible to pretend you don't get my point.

I'm saying that women who get abortions near the 20th week usually do so because of economic hardship.
I'm not saying that most women don't have abortions before the 20th week.

The statement that women who have abortions near the 20th week do so out of economic hardship is not contradicting to the statement that most women have abortions before the 20th week.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

I'm well aware of the art of debate and I'm also aware that denying an argument because you don't like it is not a valid tactic.
Of course it does.
The logic is deliberately similar to the logic of the pro-life crowd. If you think it's asinine, then we can agree on that.
It's not your opinion, but rather the logic in defending this Texas law that I'm challenging. I completely understand the position of pro-life, but the logic supporting this bill is, as you aptly described, asinine.
This is what they call irony.


I'm cannot begin to tell you how amusing I find your post here. You're arguing against gun control...I'm arguing against abortion. You're creating an example to counter the tongue-in-cheek position I created as an example.

Just to be clear, I am not advocating the position on gun control I took. Rather I was using similar reasoning as the pro-life people in this thread were and applied it to a different situation.
I'm not trying to compare guns and abortion. I'm simply using the logic to put forth a law I'm guessing you and many other pro-lifers would disagree with.

As I said before...When you understand why you have trouble with the reasoning behind the position, perhaps you'll gain some insight into the problems pro-choice has with the logic of pro-life in this thread.

A non-sensical and completely false comparison tells us more about some pro-choice logic. To try to do what you're doing you have to compare things that are actually comparable. If I said I should be allowed to dump toxic waste directly into drinking water based on my freedom of choice, would you think I made some great point or would point out that it's the actual facts and details that make a difference.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

No, you're purposely acting as obtuse as possible to pretend you don't get my point.

I'm saying that women who get abortions near the 20th week usually do so because of economic hardship.
I'm not saying that most women don't have abortions before the 20th week.

The statement that women who have abortions near the 20th week do so out of economic hardship is not contradicting to the statement that most women have abortions before the 20th week.

Ok, what I'm truly having trouble with is the logic of waiting until something is more expensive before you do it as a way to lesson economic hardship.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

Isn't Texas just Great. Good job to our Legislators and our Govenor.

Its a step in the Right direction for the rights of the unborn.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

Texas once more leapfrogs Florida as the state with the looniest laws and the most reactionary politicians. Come on, Florida! There's still time to regain the lead!

In what other state would they confiscate tampons from women in the gallery and yet allow guns to be carried? Hilarious!

http://gawker.com/no-tampons-and-pads-allowed-in-the-texas-senate-vagina-758492109
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

Ok, what I'm truly having trouble with is the logic of waiting until something is more expensive before you do it as a way to lesson economic hardship.

They're not waiting until it's more expensive. It becomes more expensive as they wait. However, it doesn't become so expensive that it's unreachable. For example: Imagine you want to buy X on week Z. However, the longer you wait, the more X goes up in value. Only the rising of this value is not so high that you don't catch up to it by week Y.

So using numbers: Say that before week 4 an abortion costs 400. A woman is not able to afford an abortion within the first 4 weeks because she can only put away 50$ a week. By week 8, the abortion cost goes up to 450. The woman by week 8 is still not able to afford it. However, by week 9, she's gathered enough money to afford it.

4weeks x 50 = $200 : Abortion cost 400. - She can't afford it.
8weeks x 50 = $400 : Abortion cost 450 - She can't afford it.

9th week: Woman has gotten 450 dollars - she can afford it however at a higher price than if she had gotten it in week 4.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

A non-sensical and completely false comparison tells us more about some pro-choice logic. To try to do what you're doing you have to compare things that are actually comparable. If I said I should be allowed to dump toxic waste directly into drinking water based on my freedom of choice, would you think I made some great point or would point out that it's the actual facts and details that make a difference.
You're confusing rationale with position. I'm using the same rationale given to support this law in an example to support another (fictional) law. If you think the logic is irrational, I would agree with you. But you seem to be okay with the logic when it supports something you want while not being okay with it when it supports something else.

I think they call that hypocrisy.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

I've kept largely silent on this issue ...

Glad you spoke up! :) What an enlightening post. I am a strong supporter of abortion rights. I am thankful to have read your experience.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

My gosh it went through! Any other states to follow suite?
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

If what I've read is true, Texas simply joins 13 other states who have similar 20 week limits on access to abortion, although in a couple of those states, their courts have stopped implementation while the constitutionality of the laws are adjudicated.

I don't know the medical details related to viability and when it becomes possible to determine if a fetus is developing normally and healthily, etc. but I have to agree with others here who have indicated that 20 weeks should be sufficient time for a woman to make a choice about whether she wants a child or not. Surely, it doesn't take more than 20 weeks to make such a choice.

Can anyone who opposes this change in the law indicate what medically happens between 20 weeks and the former 24 weeks that makes a woman who wants a child to suddenly decide not to want the child?

Actually the 20 week abortion limit was struck down in 9 western states this May as too restrictive.
The 20 week limit had already been struck in Idaho.

One of the main reasons it was struck down is because these states did NOT allow for EXCEPTIONS in the cases of fetal or gentic deformaties.

Tests cannot be performed until 18 to 20 weeks gestation and the 20 week cutoff would not allow woman to have abortions in those very sad cases. even if the fetus had NO chance of surviving after birth.
Published: May 21, 2013

A federal appellate panel struck down Arizona’s abortion law on Tuesday, saying it was unconstitutional “under a long line of invariant Supreme Court precedents” that guarantee a woman’s right to end a pregnancy any time before a fetus is deemed viable outside her womb — generally at 24 weeks.

The law, enacted in April 2012 despite vociferous protest by women’s and civil rights groups, made abortions illegal if performed 20 weeks after a woman’s last menstrual period, or roughly 18 weeks after fertilization, even if the woman learned that the fetus had no chance of surviving after birth. At 18 weeks, many fetal abnormalities can be detected through sonograms.

<SNIP>

Arizona is one of 10 states to pass an abortion ban at 20 weeks, based on theory, rejected by many medical groups, that a fetus feels pain then. Many of those bans have not yet been challenged; Dan Pochoda, legal director of Arizona’s chapter of the A.C.L.U., called the ruling “the strongest and most definitive” so far on recent laws placing restrictive limits on abortions.
The decision applies to Arizona and the eight other Western states under the Ninth Circuit’s jurisdiction, including Idaho, where similar legislation had already been deemed unconstitutional.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/22/u...tions-struck-down-in-federal-court.html?_r=1&
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

The rights of people to control their bodies takes a step back.

No, the right to own someone else's body and kill them at will got narrowly limited; but that's progress and I'll certainly take it.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

There were abortions before it was legal and there will still be no matter what laws are passed. If you think abortion is an ugly issue now, you need to look into how it used to be.

:doh

That argument is.... fail. The fact that people break the law is not an argument against laws, any more than the fact that people commit rape means that we should legalize rape in order to reduce the violence associated with it.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

Unfortunately limiting the number of clinics to 4 will have a disasterous effect on abortions in Texas putting back room abortions all over the state.

What I just said to Mal.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

Realistically. The bill created with a 20 week limit was a smoke screen. It was for the very reason you stated.

Texas legislators, in order to avoid confrontations from federal courts, so as to not battle provisions related to the "viability decision" in Roe v. Wade. They took the coward's way to construct the bill. The legislators imposed such stringent restrictions on medical providers and facilities, which would be very difficult to meet such standards that most all facilities will no longer be able to operate.

Texas legislators are chicken****s and moral fascists. They are balless control freaks who aren't just after reducing women's rights over their reproductive roles, but to also significantly degrade their rights to self-determination. They believe women should be subservient to men.

Feel free to leave at any time.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

More like we slid back into the awful past.

Treating human beings like owned property to be killed on their master's whim is sliding into the awful past; laws like this help progress us beyond that archaic nonsense.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

Feel free to leave at any time.

Well, PG...as a native Texan, I have no intention of leaving, if for no other reason to annoy the hell out of the moral fascists in Texas.
 
Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

My one question for the law would be if it includes something like Virginia tried and Wisconsin has, that has the government mandating medical procedures be performed prior to an abortion (ie the transvaginal ultrasound)?
 
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