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Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:44]

Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

Texmex said:
Gun owners are taught to identify the target before firing. Shouldn't this requirement be carried over to abortion?
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No Sir, they are not taught that. They are not taught anything prior to purchase. No law requires them to attend any class, no law requires them to pay for that non-existent class.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

Texmex said:
I don't agree. God decides what murder is, not some court.
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dunno about that, the Bible has several references on God approved abortions. I have read where the Bible says laying man laying with man is bad, but none where ending a pregnancy is a sin. If he can be so specific on gay sex, why not abortion, known and practiced for centuries before the coming of Christ.

Just to be clear, who speaks for God in these matters?
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

Zyphlin said:
Sounding like a true anti-2nd amendment crusader there, prattling on about the "possible elimination of life" as an excuse for curtailing private citizens freedoms in the name of big government.

Find a way to make abortion illegal or to, at least, deem the fetus a citizen or legal person and thus creating legitimate legal grey area to push such things. Until such times, all you're doing is banging the drums for big government, increased fed power, and the expansion of the state. Congrats
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I'm actually staunchly pro-second. I also support legal abortion. That abortion might be regulated to some extent does fly in the face of those who support recreational sex with no consequences. This has nothing to do with "my vagina" or any of that horse crap whining. That a woman should recognize exactly what she is about to do does not seem unreasonable. One would think that such agencies as those who provide abortion services would require such things on their own - without the need for government to step in at all. They certainly would if they were concerned about the overall health of the women involved.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

Texmex said:
I don't agree. God decides what murder is, not some court.
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That's fine that you believe that, but that is not how our country is run.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

humbolt said:
I'm actually staunchly pro-second. I also support legal abortion. That abortion might be regulated to some extent does fly in the face of those who support recreational sex with no consequences. T
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Hahahah it's rare that they flat-out admit that this is about punishing women for having sex.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

Deuce said:
Mental gymnastics
View attachment 67150187



The government does not perceive abortion as taking a life.
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Greetings, Deuce. :2wave:

How convenient for those contemplating abortion! Perhaps in the early stages of a pregnancy, when it's just a cluster of cells, that perception might be correct, but what do they call it when it's a late term abortion, and ultrasound shows that it looks like a human being, or even an abortion that produces a baby that is born live? :unsure13:

BTW, I have no argument with those that favor abortion--that is their decision to make for whatever reasons they may have. And this topic has been argued for years. It's just not a road I would want to take, based on any government decision. That should be between a woman and her doctor! :peace:
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

Deuce said:
Hahahah it's rare that they flat-out admit that this is about punishing women for having sex.
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Reading challenged? Where did I say anything about punishment? Why, nowhere. There are ample reasons for a woman to seek an abortion that do not involve anything you think you maintain. That it is even suggested that a surgical procedure be performed with admitting rights to a hospital does give those who support unregulated abortion heartburn - and it is the crowd that cries about the lack of free birth control and a host of other social "rights" that also decries the failure of marriage, child care, and a host of other self-described social ills that are self-serving by their very nature. What a coincidence. You sound like one of 'em.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

humbolt said:
Reading challenged? Where did I say anything about punishment? Why, nowhere. There are ample reasons for a woman to seek an abortion that do not involve anything you think you maintain. That it is even suggested that a surgical procedure be performed with admitting rights to a hospital does give those who support unregulated abortion heartburn - and it is the crowd that cries about the lack of free birth control and a host of other social "rights" that also decries the failure of marriage, child care, and a host of other self-described social ills that are self-serving by their very nature. What a coincidence. You sound like one of 'em.
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Why should I accept your medical assessment of abortion procedures over actual doctors? Because I've yet to see a single medical professional say this a medically necessary change to the procedure.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

polgara said:
Greetings, Deuce. :2wave:

How convenient for those contemplating abortion! Perhaps in the early stages of a pregnancy, when it's just a cluster of cells, that perception might be correct, but what do they call it when it's a late term abortion, and ultrasound shows that it looks like a human being, or even an abortion that produces a baby that is born live? :unsure13:

BTW, I have no argument with those that favor abortion--that is their decision to make for whatever reasons they may have. And this topic has been argued for years. It's just not a road I would want to take, based on any government decision. That should be between a woman and her doctor! :peace:
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Pol, would you have a surgical procedure at a clinic performed by a doctor who lacked admitting privileges at any hospital? I wouldn't.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

polgara said:
Greetings, Deuce. :2wave:

How convenient for those contemplating abortion! Perhaps in the early stages of a pregnancy, when it's just a cluster of cells, that perception might be correct, but what do they call it when it's a late term abortion, and ultrasound shows that it looks like a human being, or even an abortion that produces a baby that is born live? :unsure13:
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The late term abortion issue is a dead horse- name the states that allow late term abortions, how many late term abortions are done? 20 weeks is the recognized cut-off for legal abortions.

Viability is a tough call, many premies born 'naturally' have poorly developed organs and a short life filled with intense medical problems. At 19 weeks the fetus is 8" long, and at 23 weeks the air sacs are starting in the lungs, the fetus is just under a foot long. Brain development is still ongoing- difficult to say the fetus is viable.

What something looks like isn't a very good indicator of what it actually is. An under 20 week old fetus may look human but it isn't capable of living as one until later.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

polgara said:
Greetings, Deuce. :2wave:

How convenient for those contemplating abortion! Perhaps in the early stages of a pregnancy, when it's just a cluster of cells, that perception might be correct, but what do they call it when it's a late term abortion, and ultrasound shows that it looks like a human being, or even an abortion that produces a baby that is born live? :unsure13:

BTW, I have no argument with those that favor abortion--that is their decision to make for whatever reasons they may have. And this topic has been argued for years. It's just not a road I would want to take, based on any government decision. That should be between a woman and her doctor! :peace:
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Hi Polgara :2wave:

I'm right with you.

My son, who is an EMT, sent me a text message last Saturday from his rig. He stated he was transporting a newborn baby to another facility, along with a medical team. The baby was in a portable NiCU device. Natal Intensive Care Unit. He said the baby was reported to be 23 weeks old, and 1.5 pounds. He had never seen such a small baby before.

Makes one think, doesn't it?
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

Deuce said:
Hahahah it's rare that they flat-out admit that this is about punishing women for having sex.
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What debate forum are you on? Comments like "Next time maybe she'll know to close her legs." are ubiquitous.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

Zyphlin said:
The admitting privledges issue seems a lot like the anti-2nd amendment individuals attempts to regulate clip size or ammunition. Attempting an end around by not removing the primary issue at hand, but rather creating significant hampering of directly related issues that cause a defacto removal or severe reduction in terms of the primary issue.
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After thinking on this some i'd say it isn't like regulating magazine size or ammo.

It would be as if the feds decided you can buy any sort of weapon you want, full auto made after 1986 included- BUT due to budget cut-backs and lack of ATF inspectors the feds will only permit two dealers per state. Their paperwork and firearms will be highly monitored- any dispute will cause the license to be suspended pending the outcome of the rather drawn out hearing system.

More like that sort of end-run.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

humbolt said:
Pol, would you have a surgical procedure at a clinic performed by a doctor who lacked admitting privileges at any hospital? I wouldn't.
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Good morning, humbolt. :2wave:

Fortunately, I haven't yet had to face making that decision, but my first instinct would be NO. I'm not certain what criteria is used to determine who is eligible for admitting procedures, though. Do all hospitals use the same standards?

Did Gosnell have privileges at any hospital?

The horror story on Yahoo yesterday about the woman who awoke from a coma to find that hospital doctors were about to begin harvesting her vital organs does point out some deficiencies in the system, though! :eek: A book I read titled "Dead Doctors Don't Lie" sure scared me enough to question the credentials of any health care professional I might choose! :twocents:
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

Zyphlin said:
Giving greater power to the government over the private market, specifically the medical market, and over what measures individuals must be governmentally mandated to undertake to partake in private services.
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I highly doubt the statist and big government critics are afraid of that. They just don't want women to have to REALLY face the consequences of their actions.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

ocean515 said:
Hi Polgara :2wave:

I'm right with you.

My son, who is an EMT, sent me a text message last Saturday from his rig. He stated he was transporting a newborn baby to another facility, along with a medical team. The baby was in a portable NiCU device. Natal Intensive Care Unit. He said the baby was reported to be 23 weeks old, and 1.5 pounds. He had never seen such a small baby before.

Makes one think, doesn't it?
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Good morning, ocean515. :2wave:

It sure does! :thumbs: If possible, could you keep us updated on how that baby is doing? I don't know what the survival odds are for a healthy 6-month fetus, but stranger things have happened that are treated as modern-day miracles, if all goes well. :peace:
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

notquiteright said:
The late term abortion issue is a dead horse- name the states that allow late term abortions, how many late term abortions are done? 20 weeks is the recognized cut-off for legal abortions.

Viability is a tough call, many premies born 'naturally' have poorly developed organs and a short life filled with intense medical problems. At 19 weeks the fetus is 8" long, and at 23 weeks the air sacs are starting in the lungs, the fetus is just under a foot long. Brain development is still ongoing- difficult to say the fetus is viable.

What something looks like isn't a very good indicator of what it actually is. An under 20 week old fetus may look human but it isn't capable of living as one until later.
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Good afternoon, notquiteright. :2wave:

:thanks: for a thoughtful and informative response. :thumbs: That's one reason I like this site...I learn something new and interesting every day!
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

polgara said:
Good morning, ocean515. :2wave:

It sure does! :thumbs: If possible, could you keep us updated on how that baby is doing? I don't know what the survival odds are for a healthy 6-month fetus, but stranger things have happened that are treated as modern-day miracles, if all goes well. :peace:
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I'll try. I saw my son last night and I asked about it. He didn't know. He tranports patients all over Southern California, so I don't know how often he goes to the same facilities.

He shares the same sentiments on the issue of abortion as you and I do. I could tell he was pretty blown away by how small the baby was, but more importantly, by how, I don't know how to put it, how "complete" it was. It was just really tiny. He did say the NiCU was doing the breathing for it.

I'll let you know if he learns anything.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

polgara said:
Good morning, humbolt. :2wave:

Fortunately, I haven't yet had to face making that decision, but my first instinct would be NO. I'm not certain what criteria is used to determine who is eligible for admitting procedures, though. Do all hospitals use the same standards?

Did Gosnell have privileges at any hospital?

The horror story on Yahoo yesterday about the woman who awoke from a coma to find that hospital doctors were about to begin harvesting her vital organs does point out some deficiencies in the system, though! :eek: A book I read titled "Dead Doctors Don't Lie" sure scared me enough to question the credentials of any health care professional I might choose! :twocents:
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It is a wise precaution. I think that Planned Parenthood certainly should make such facilities available. I don't like that the state is involved, but I have to say it's a reasonable requirement. If my child was at such a clinic, I would certainly want that eventuality addressed. The rate of complication is not significantly high, but it's 100% if it happens to you.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

ocean515 said:
I'll try. I saw my son last night and I asked about it. He didn't know. He tranports patients all over Southern California, so I don't know how often he goes to the same facilities.

He shares the same sentiments on the issue of abortion as you and I do. I could tell he was pretty blown away by how small the baby was, but more importantly, by how, I don't know how to put it, how "complete" it was. It was just really tiny. He did say the NiCU was doing the breathing for it.

I'll let you know if he learns anything.
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:thanks:

:thumbs:
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

Deuce said:
Why should I accept your medical assessment of abortion procedures over actual doctors? Because I've yet to see a single medical professional say this a medically necessary change to the procedure.
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I didn't make a medical assessment, and you certainly don't have to accept anything I say. I'm not talking about the procedure itself to start with, but I am talking about medical recourse for a patient within a reasonably accessible area. Statistically speaking, I'd say you have a point, except that we're talking about women's health here, and not statistics. A 6% complication rate isn't statistically significant unless you happen to be in that 6%. I would think that an outfit such as Planned Parenthood, who specifically provides services for women's health, would take such interest in providing a relatively simple service in keeping with their stated goals and representations.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

humbolt said:
I didn't make a medical assessment, and you certainly don't have to accept anything I say. I'm not talking about the procedure itself to start with, but I am talking about medical recourse for a patient within a reasonably accessible area. Statistically speaking, I'd say you have a point, except that we're talking about women's health here, and not statistics. A 6% complication rate isn't statistically significant unless you happen to be in that 6%. I would think that an outfit such as Planned Parenthood, who specifically provides services for women's health, would take such interest in providing a relatively simple service in keeping with their stated goals and representations.
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The fact that complications exist doesn't mean that the hospital admitting privileges are medically necessary. The nature and severity of the complications, and how much of that information needs to be briefed in detail to the hospital, are what really determines whether this is necessary. To take the extreme example, why not require all abortions to be performed at a hospital with an ER? There could be complications! Hey, there could be complications during an eye exam, so let's do the same with every eye exam... unnecessary, right?

I've never heard a doctor express that they believe this is a useful precaution. And let's face it, safety of the woman is not the reason Wisconsin Republicans are pushing this bill.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

davidtaylorjr said:
How in the world is requiring an ultrasound making it nearly impossible to get an abortion? Spin alert!
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From the article:

U.S. District Judge William Conley granted the order following a hearing in a lawsuit filed Friday by Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin and Affiliated Medical Services. It alleged the requirement would unconstitutionally restrict the availability of abortions in the state, violates the U.S. Constitution’s due process guarantee and unconstitutionally treats doctors who perform abortions differently from those who perform other procedures.

The restraining order will remain in place pending a fuller hearing July 17. In his ruling, Conley said “there is a troubling lack of justification for the hospital admitting privileges requirement.” He said the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that states must prove that restrictions on abortion rights must be reasonably aimed at preserving the mother’s health.
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The justification for the ruling has nothing to do with ultrasounds and everything to do with the "admitting privilege" requirement does not seem to meet a compelling government need. In other words the rule is arbitrary and the government IS NOT allowed to make arbitrary rules.
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

humbolt said:
I'm actually staunchly pro-second.
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And yet you parrot the same type of mentality and arguments as the anti-second amendment crowd. How wonderfully hypocritical. So you just support Big Government, intrusion upon individuals rights, and the expansion of the state when it suits your personal emotional feelings. Great to know.

One would think that such agencies as those who provide abortion services would require such things on their own - without the need for government to step in at all. They certainly would if they were concerned about the overall health of the women involved.
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All well and good, and I'd have zero issue if a place decided to CHOOSE to make this their own practice when dealing with abortions.

But unlike you, I'm not going to empower the government to get further involved into the exchange of PRIVATE services and further into the decision making process of medical procedures all in the name of what "feels good".
 
Re: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law..................[W:4

Drake McHugh said:
I highly doubt the statist and big government critics are afraid of that.
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I don't really care what the "statist" or "big government" critics are afraid of, I listed what I would be afraid of in terms of something like this. And, more importantly...the mere fact that "statist" or "big government" people may agree with the RESULTS, even if they disagree on the reason those results should be met, is not a reason to abandon principles unless ones principles isn't based upon a particular ideology but rather based on the notion of being "against" whatever another side is "for" with no deeper thought in it than that.
 
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