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After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

That's a pretty common misconception:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/16/b...location-studies-say.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

ataxingmatter: Right-Wing Mythology 101: the myth of the rich fleeing taxes

Tax Flight Is a Myth — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

Exploding the Texas Myth of Prosperity

But that's neither here nor there, and I'd rather not derail the thread with irrelevant nonsense.

The more likely reason that polling data has shifted leftwards is that we're no longer being inundated with misinformation from social conservative organizations. As it turns out, when people are presented with facts about gay marriage (rather than fearmongering bull****) they tend to support it.

Ok, well opinion pieces aside, what facts about gay marriage sway opinion one way or the other?

Tim-
 
As opposed to the funding on the other side of the equation? I'm not sure I understand your point? Why does funding matter in your opinion and specifically how is one's funding different that the other's?

Tim-

You would have to read the other posts. Funding doesn't matter...but he was asking what the Mormons had to do with Prop 8.
 
Get between a progressive and his agenda and he'll make you out to be a hater. They get this from their overly permissive mommies because when they were little spoiled brats, they used to throw tantrums in the grocery store because mommy didn't give them a candy bar. Mommy gave in and that was that. Spoiled brat tantrum has been their go-to tactic every time when they don't get their way.




Kind of like the far right evangelicals on ssm, eh?
 
Serious. If you are going to try to debate prop 8 you need to bring yourself up to speed. The pro-prop H8 campagin was based on a number of lies and other propoganda, mainly claiming that churches would be forced to marry gay people and school children would be required to attend gay weddings. Propoganda has proved to be effective, but nevertheless....it is always based on lies. Lying in the name of God is still lying...agree?

So you're suggesting your kind here in California are easily swayed by propoganda?

Now that is one of the few things I've seen written from you that smacks as being rational and true.
 
So you're suggesting your kind here in California are easily swayed by propoganda?

Now that is one of the few things I've seen written from you that smacks as being rational and true.

Its not just California. Propoganda has been proven to be effective throughout the course of history. Why do you think aht propoganda is used so much during times of war?
 
You would have to read the other posts. Funding doesn't matter...but he was asking what the Mormons had to do with Prop 8.

I did read it the whole thread, and I understand perfectly what transpired in the context of this point. You were the first to bring up the Mormons were behind it as if to tacitly imply that religious fanatics were involved and lied about their position on the matter, and that apparently people are unable themselves to form their own opinion due to the undue influence of the church. Your entire point was meant as a pejorative however cleverly designed. Now that you've admitted that funding really doesn't matter, can we now move on from your thinly veiled attacks on the religious convictions of the people?


Tim-
 
Ok, well opinion pieces aside, what facts about gay marriage sway opinion one way or the other?

Right. Opinion pieces and academic studies aside...

I just posted a link about this, but broadly speaking the two biggest lies that informed the prop 8 debate were that homosexuality would be taught to grade school kids and that churches would have to perform gay weddings or lose their tax exempt status if they didn't. There were ads taken out by conservative organizations perpetuating those lies, and yes, they had a significant impact on how people voted.
 
Its not just California. Propoganda has been proven to be effective throughout the course of history. Why do you think aht propoganda is used so much during times of war?

But of course. The Progressive Machine is most certainly the current master.

What's interesting is that the spending by those against Prop 8 was far more than the spending by those in support of Prop 8. This fact gets lost in the the propoganda you're continuing to spread.

Of couse, at this point the issue is moot. As it should be.
 
Right. Opinion pieces and academic studies aside...

I just posted a link about this, but broadly speaking the two biggest lies that informed the prop 8 debate were that homosexuality would be taught to grade school kids and that churches would have to perform gay weddings or lose their tax exempt status if they didn't. There were ads taken out by conservative organizations perpetuating those lies, and yes, they had a significant impact on how people voted.

Homosexual normalcy IS being taught to grade school kids, and we can decide for ourselves whether that is a big deal or not, secondly, it is fully rational to extend to future consequences a time where freedom of religion will still be constitutional, BUT, in order to have exempt status, YOU (as in the church) will need to follow the law of the state via discrimination. It's an end around the constitution for organizations that oppose SSM, BUT still not completely out of the realm of possibility.


Tim-
 
I did read it the whole thread, and I understand perfectly what transpired in the context of this point. You were the first to bring up the Mormons were behind it as if to tacitly imply that religious fanatics were involved and lied about their position on the matter, and that apparently people are unable themselves to form their own opinion due to the undue influence of the church. Your entire point was meant as a pejorative however cleverly designed. Now that you've admitted that funding really doesn't matter, can we now move on from your thinly veiled attacks on the religious convictions of the people?


Tim-

Wrong. I have no issue with funding. What I have an issue with is complete and utter lies and deceit. The Mormon church should be ashamed of lies and fraud that they perpetrated during this campaign. Sorry...thats just the plain and simple fact.
 
That was pretty weak actually. What did the people vote on? Are you saying they were too stupid to read the ballot and understand it? They knew what they were voting on.

I'm pointing out the obvious fact that some people (notably undecideds) are swayed by fearmongering and lies.
 
The post to which I was responding was not looking for my opinion, so that's a pretty weird thing to bring up.



Then you're not reading very closely. In any case, here's a more detailed overview:

2: The Yes on 8 Ads That Worked - The Prop 8 Report

Bro, again, you're citing opinion or interpretations of events, NOT facts. You've posted three linked sources for your position and all three are from rabid pro homosexual sites. I mean I could do the same thing I suppose but I'm sure that a few of you would cry foul at my conservative sources so I say to myself why bother? Why not just state your position, argue the merits of it and then agree to disagree?

Tim-
 
Homosexual normalcy IS being taught to grade school kids, and we can decide for ourselves whether that is a big deal or not, secondly, it is fully rational to extend to future consequences a time where freedom of religion will still be constitutional, BUT, in order to have exempt status, YOU (as in the church) will need to follow the law of the state via discrimination. It's an end around the constitution for organizations that oppose SSM, BUT still not completely out of the realm of possibility.

1) Nobody is taught sex ed in grade schools. Sex ed is, and always has been required to be age appropriate. Prop 8 had and has literally nothing to do with that. Thanks for being living proof that people believe the lies you denied existed.

2) The failure of prop 8 has not changed anything with respect to churches' rights to marry whomever they please. Again, thanks for demonstrating that you've bought into the bull**** that you deny exists.
 
Wrong. I have no issue with funding. What I have an issue with is complete and utter lies and deceit. The Mormon church should be ashamed of lies and fraud that they perpetrated during this campaign. Sorry...thats just the plain and simple fact.

And as I am having this conversation with the other poster, why not point out the lies the proponents of Prop 8 spewed? Please be specific.

Tim-
 
And as I am having this conversation with the other poster, why not point out the lies the proponents of Prop 8 spewed? Please be specific.

Tim-

I already have.

They made false claims that churches would be forced to marry gays
They made false claims that school children would be forced to attend gay weddings
They made false claims that churches would lose their tax exempt status
They made false claims that prop 8 would require DCFS to place children in gay homes (The reality was that gay couples were already able to adopt...but they saw the need to perpetrate a fraud in any event).

There are more...but you should be able to recognize the pattern.
 
Bro, again, you're citing opinion or interpretations of events, NOT facts. You've posted three linked sources for your position and all three are from rabid pro homosexual sites. I mean I could do the same thing I suppose but I'm sure that a few of you would cry foul at my conservative sources so I say to myself why bother? Why not just state your position, argue the merits of it and then agree to disagree?

I have stated my position. Do you not understand that you've been responding to a series of posts asking for sources? Perhaps you should read for context before commenting on an ongoing thread. Incidentally, you're obviously not reading my sources very closely, because they discuss exactly what I'm claiming they do:

The fact that proponents of prop 8 produced lots of ads that flat out lied about what prop 8 did. Do you deny either that such ads existed, or that they were factually inaccurate? If not, whether or not they're "rabidly pro homosexual" (as moronic as that designation is) is irrelevant.
 
After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits - First Read

this is why the fall of DOMA will aid in getting equal rights nationalized.
All its going to take now is some court cases here and there to pave the way.

SO many scenarios can now push the issues and shine light on the fact this is inequality.

The process will now be faster and soon all states will have to end their discrimination.

State courts do not have jurisdiction over federal benefits and the SCOTUS has already allowed states that have them to keep their bans thereby boxing out the federal courts :2wave:

Like I said the day the decisions came down, really more of a Pyrrhic victory for the left.
 
1) Nobody is taught sex ed in grade schools. Sex ed is, and always has been required to be age appropriate. Prop 8 had and has literally nothing to do with that. Thanks for being living proof that people believe the lies you denied existed.

You're moving the goal posts now. No one said grade school kids were being shown how to fist another boy, BUT, they are being taught homosexual normalcy WHICH is a matter of opinion with no shred of scientific fact. Now, I'm sure you'll say that peer reviewed studies from this psychological associate vs. that psychological association are facts, but can we at least agree that many people do NOT assign the same level of scientific discipline to the social sciences, as they do to the more commonly accepted hard sciences that rely on repeatable and unequivocal data?

2) The failure of prop 8 has not changed anything with respect to churches' rights to marry whomever they please. Again, thanks for demonstrating that you've bought into the bull**** that you deny exists.

It hasn't yet, but it is completely rational to expect it to happen. All it takes is one legal challenge, and precedent supports government requiring certain thresholds to continue tax exemption status. Currently the climate, even in California, does not and probably wouldn't support taking away churches right to marry whomever they choose, and whether that should be a requirement to receive tax exemption, but it damn well could easily go the other way, and YOU should know it.


Tim-
 
I already have.

They made false claims that churches would be forced to marry gays
They made false claims that school children would be forced to attend gay weddings
They made false claims that churches would lose their tax exempt status
They made false claims that prop 8 would require DCFS to place children in gay homes (The reality was that gay couples were already able to adopt...but they saw the need to perpetrate a fraud in any event).

There are more...but you should be able to recognize the pattern.

All of those things except tax exemption HAVE already happened in states that allow SSM. I know of a few examples just in MA alone. Do some research, try googling the "little black book", and teacher takes kids to gay wedding.. You'll see that your websites claiming they are lies are actually lying to you both. :)


Tim-
 
Kind of like the far right evangelicals on ssm, eh?

Not at all. Kind of like the pinko left on SSM. Anyone that doesn't agree with their agenda is a bigot and they go all spoiled brat on you, stomping their feet and waving their fists as they stick out their lower lip on their tear stained face and shriek "you're just a mean hater!". It's comical to witness this from what are supposed to be adults.
 
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