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19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

But it does happen.

These men, in this situation, followed protocol to the letter. They took no more risks than what was expected of them when they took the job. Fires are unpredictable and this one was no different. They knew that, but went out to do their job, which is what they trained to do. Many had families and people to go home to. The implication of grand-standing is disgusting.
 
I know, I was just making a point.

There are many who believe that fires in Arizona are started intentionally in order to distract authorities while illegal immigrants are crossing borders and making their way through the state.

Link please.
 
Some of them died in their tents. Some did not. It was a firestorm (no not the movie with Howie Long) but basically conflagration. They are trained not to run as you can't outrun a firestorm/conflagration. It's dig hole to give you some air between you and your tent and pray.

At the time they were clearing an exit.

From Fox News:

"One of the last fail-safe methods that a firefighter can do under those conditions is literally to dig as much as they can down and cover themselves with a protective -- kinda looks like a foil type -- fire-resistant material -- with the desire, the hope at least, is that the fire will burn over the top of them and they can survive it," Fraijo said Sunday.

"Under certain conditions there's usually only sometimes a 50 percent chance that they survive," he said. "It's an extreme measure that's taken under the absolute worst conditions." Out-of-control Arizona wildfire kills 19 firefighters, including nearly all of elite Hotshot crew | Fox News
 
How can people argue over threads like these? Everyone should be united in their grief, with little else needing to be said on the matter at this early stage.

Paul
 
I know, I was just making a point.

There are many who believe that fires in Arizona are started intentionally in order to distract authorities while illegal immigrants are crossing borders and making their way through the state.

this is mainly an issue/topic around the border with Mexico. You should research more before making broad statements. This also is not the time to be discussing illegal immigration.

The Yarnell Hill fire was reported as lightning caused.
 
Link please.

While arson is always suspected, we've had 100+ weather for the last few weeks with no rain at all. It does not take much for a fire to get started. Aside from arson, there is always the risk of stupidity at play as well. People who toss cigaret butts out of their pickups should be shot with their own sidearm.
 
I find this insinuating comment insulting to the courage of these brave young men, who put themselves between YOUR homes and property and the danger of a horrible blaze. Shame on you!

It's not an insult whatsoever, just a comment and one that should be explored. That many getting trapped is not a normal event in any sense. Clearly, someone made a bad decision and in that more towards success than safety. The question is "why?"

An analogy would be "The Crocodile Hunter" who appears to have come to believe he is just too tough to die. MOST people with a stingray spike in his chest would not do the he-man thing and just rip it out to show he's tough. Another example is someone gets some degree in martial arts and then decides he's tough - leading to some street fighter beating the crap of him. I saw that happen many times. Publicly declaring someone to be great can lead to taking greater risks than otherwise would.

Fame of being skilled and tough becoming part of a person's self perception can be dangerous. The publicity may have lead someone in the decision process to error towards getting the job done, rather than safety. Clearly that error was made. The question is "why?"

There is nothing insulting in such a comment. What would seem insulting it is gratuitously lament their deaths and then everything just goes on without anyone bothering to ask how the hell did this happen? Who screwed up and why?" Psychology may play a part in that.
 
Let me start of by saying my wife's cousin worked for the Prescott Fire Department and was a Hot Shot with the department until last year and since moved on to better things. So it's big deal to my wife and her family as they knew most of them. I barely remember meeting them at barbecues. So I am not being rude, insensitive or anything like that with what I am about to say.

Okay.. two issues.. 1) They were close to best of the best but Smokejumpers are the best of the best when it comes to wildfires. But no big deal it can be confusing.

2) Weren't you one of those I was arguing with about knowledge and how it shouldn't be free (my position) because training and certification is very important? You said having an AST cert didn't mean you were a good mechanic or something to that effect? These guys were highly trained (years of it) and despite their training they couldn't survive. Yet if these guys (and gals) didn't exist and didn't have exclusive training you'd have hundreds of deaths a year from the average joe learning on the fly.
It was likely me, as I don't believe certification for MOST jobs should be required. You either know the stuff, or you don't. Where or how I came across the know how is irrelevant. Does it matter if a fire fighter had some form of formal training at an accredited school for such, or the son of a fire fighter learned everything from his dad? What matters is what the person knows, and accreditation is absolutely no measure of this. If you want to pursue this discussion, make a new thread.
 
It's not an insult whatsoever, just a comment and one that should be explored. That many getting trapped is not a normal event in any sense. Clearly, someone made a bad decision and in that more towards success than safety. The question is "why?"

An analogy would be "The Crocodile Hunter" who appears to have come to believe he is just too tough to die. MOST people with a stingray spike in his chest would not do the he-man thing and just rip it out to show he's tough. Another example is someone gets some degree in martial arts and then decides he's tough - leading to some street fighter beating the crap of him. I saw that happen many times. Publicly declaring someone to be great can lead to taking greater risks than otherwise would.

Fame of being skilled and tough becoming part of a person's self perception can be dangerous. The publicity may have lead someone in the decision process to error towards getting the job done, rather than safety. Clearly that error was made. The question is "why?"

There is nothing insulting in such a comment. What would seem insulting it is gratuitously lament their deaths and then everything just goes on without anyone bothering to ask how the hell did this happen? Who screwed up and why?" Psychology may play a part in that.

You obviously know little about what can happen in a brush/forest fire in the desert. How did it happen? You can get 50+MHP wind gusts and changes in wind direction in a matter of seconds. The desert is hot and dry and just ready to burst at any time. This is what can happen and they knew it but they went to do their job. You want to blame someone??? Would you like to implement laws against high winds in the desert? Because that is how stupid you sound. They didn't screw up. Would very much like to see anyone who would even suggest they were grand-standing because of the coverage they were getting, or that someone is to blame for this tragedy go out and do what they do for 5 mins, and see if you would still sing the same absolutely idiotic tune as what you are singing here.
 
would you care to argue that the number of fires is higher then normal?

Would you care to argue that the temperature in the last few weeks has been higher than average? Speculation is a sign of a lack of facts.
 
It was likely me, as I don't believe certification for MOST jobs should be required. You either know the stuff, or you don't. Where or how I came across the know how is irrelevant. Does it matter if a fire fighter had some form of formal training at an accredited school for such, or the son of a fire fighter learned everything from his dad? What matters is what the person knows, and accreditation is absolutely no measure of this. If you want to pursue this discussion, make a new thread.

Nah, I need to debate this again, just found it funny.
 
So an extra degree, and things just spontaneously combust?

You do know that an "extra degree" added to the global average can be quite catastrophic. No?
 
This was a horrific tragedy and a horrific way for those brave firefighters to die. I was sick to my stomach when I heard what had happened, and how many had been lost. My deepest sympathies to their friends, families and the citizens of Arizona on this terrible, terrible loss. :(
 
It's not an insult whatsoever, just a comment and one that should be explored. That many getting trapped is not a normal event in any sense. Clearly, someone made a bad decision and in that more towards success than safety. The question is "why?"

An analogy would be "The Crocodile Hunter" who appears to have come to believe he is just too tough to die. MOST people with a stingray spike in his chest would not do the he-man thing and just rip it out to show he's tough. Another example is someone gets some degree in martial arts and then decides he's tough - leading to some street fighter beating the crap of him. I saw that happen many times. Publicly declaring someone to be great can lead to taking greater risks than otherwise would.

Fame of being skilled and tough becoming part of a person's self perception can be dangerous. The publicity may have lead someone in the decision process to error towards getting the job done, rather than safety. Clearly that error was made. The question is "why?"

There is nothing insulting in such a comment. What would seem insulting it is gratuitously lament their deaths and then everything just goes on without anyone bothering to ask how the hell did this happen? Who screwed up and why?" Psychology may play a part in that.

I spent 30+ years in wildland fire. Spent some years on a hotshot crew when I first started. I can tell you that in extreme fire conditions, an unexpected shift of high winds can cause the fire to blow up at a rate most cannot comprehend. I also have been involved in fire entrapment and fatality investigations.

There is an ongoing investigation on what happened. If you would do any research you would know that such tragic events are investigated, reports, books, etc are written to try and learn at teach what happened. Search South Canyon, Mann Gulch, etc.
Investigation look at everything from command and control, weather. Firefighters take their jobs seriously.

So please if you want to continue with this line of thought do some self education first.
 
It's obviously much more likely than illegals being behind a lightning-strike fire. :roll:

oh... so lighting strikes in the AZ desert are a new thing? geez I really don't believe this...!!! next thing we'll hear from the flat earthers....
 
oh... so lighting strikes in the AZ desert are a new thing? geez I really don't believe this...!!! next thing we'll hear from the flat earthers....
Huh? i said no such thing. My original comment was simply a retort to the argument that illegals set it as a distraction.
 
Huh? i said no such thing. My original comment was simply a retort to the argument that illegals set it as a distraction.

Please accept my apology. I am very upset with some of the things said in this thread, as this tragedy has hit close to home. I shall be vigilant and read more closely, rather than shoot from the hip. Again, my apologies.
 
Please accept my apology. I am very upset with some of the things said in this thread, as this tragedy has hit close to home. I shall be vigilant and read more closely, rather than shoot from the hip. Again, my apologies.

No worries. And, my condolences regarding any personal loss you may have experienced.
 
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