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U.S. taps half-billion German phone, internet links in month:

From CNN:

Europe furious, 'shocked' by report of U.S. spying - CNN.com

Best quote about this comes, from all places, RUSSIA:




He is a political refugee and handing him over is morally unacceptable

Bravo...

Because Russia wouldn't want a former member of the CIA who also worked with the NSA for any reason other than granting him the same political freedoms they deny their own people. The Russians don't even have the freedom of speech for ****s sake.
 
That wouldn't fix it.

The new guys just be corrupted by the REST of the government.

I'm being a bit cynical here, aren't I....

You have to try. Allowing it to continue with a blind eye is not a solution to anything.
 
Anyone surprised by this is, frankly, naive.

This has only been going on for 5,000 years.

But if this came out in 2005, it would have been a media circle-jerk. Today, it's a blurb after the entertainment news.
 
I'm not sure that many in the American public fully understand the gravity of the possible activities directed at leading strategic allies. The relationship is one that has been forged over time from a combination of shared interests and an accumulation of mutual trust. Without sufficient trust, collaboration can wither except to the point where critical interests require it. Such a diminished relationship would not be anything close to that which currently prevails. Gone would be the warmth and sense of community that have greatly benefited countries and peoples on both sides of the Atlantic. In its place, would be a colder businesslike relationship based on interests, alone.

Secretary of State Kerry understands the risks. Not surprisingly, he has tried to downplay the activities as being within the norms of what is customary. In addition, resorting to a timeless diplomatic device for buying time, he has stated that he is not familiar with the details of the first Der Spiegel report of the issue, even as that report has been out for more than 24 hours.

Nevertheless, events continue to unfold. The EU will now be sweeping its "premises" and computer systems. Germany has summoned the U.S. Ambassador. Some European legislators want to suspend discussions aimed at reaching a major trans-Atlantic trade accord.

If the Der Spiegel reports are accurate, the activities would be anything but customary. Their scope could well be unprecedented. At a minimum, those activities would extend far beyond the realm of counterterrorism on which the NSA program was authorized. Those activities would also suggest that the U.S. government has evolved across two Administrations--one Republican and one Democratic--into a worldview of distrust from which even leading strategic allies are not spared (excepting four 2nd-level NSA partners: UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand).

That would be an unhealthy outcome, as it would have fundamental implications for bilateral and international cooperation, not just from key allies, but also prospective partners. The losses from reduced cooperation would very likely outweigh any of the perceived benefits of the activities described by Der Spiegel.

Hopefully, the Der Spiegel articles (as more are being published) are not accurate. If they are, it is very troubling. Those activities would have potential profound implications that could, at least temporarily, dent U.S. strategic relationships and undermine possibilities for cooperation with many other countries.
 
I don't know why anyone would find this to be particularly surprising. Espionage, even among allies, is hardly anything new.

It's simply how the game is played. The only difference this time is that we happen to have gotten caught.

I think they're having problems with just how 'espionage' is practiced.

Understanding that there are spooks and counterspooks, why is it suddenly necessary and proper to take data from all German citizens? Do friends really 'bug' friends?
 
Building on the point of the gravity of the matter, Reuters is now carrying the following banner: Breaking News: U.S. will provide all information that European allies want regarding spying allegations: Obama

Given the profound implications, I am not surprised that the White House would take such a sweeping posture. The value of the strategic relationships involved is vastly greater than any of the possible benefits derived from the alleged activities. Doing anything less risked undermining critical U.S. interests. This is a welcome development.
 
I think they're having problems with just how 'espionage' is practiced.

Understanding that there are spooks and counterspooks, why is it suddenly necessary and proper to take data from all German citizens? Do friends really 'bug' friends?

So you're saying there should be a "proper" way to spy?

The multicultural failings of Europe make this necessary. That experiment has blown up in their face badly.
 
Anyone surprised by this is, frankly, naive.

This has only been going on for 5,000 years.

But if this came out in 2005, it would have been a media circle-jerk. Today, it's a blurb after the entertainment news.

NSA warrantless surveillance (2001

CNN.com - Bush*says he signed NSA wiretap order - Dec 17, 2005

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Conservative Persecution Complex affects 1 of every 4 Americans. If you or your family members feel CPC, please contact a doctor so that they may prescribe a Reality Pill. If you are pregnant or suffering of schizophrenia, you should not take a Reality Pill. A Reality Pill may work for you if you are a partisan hack with CPC. A Reality Pill may affect your sensory organs by giving you a reality check. If you have any concerns about CPC or the Reality Pill, please contact your doctor immediately.
 
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NSA warrantless surveillance (2001

CNN.com - Bush*says he signed NSA wiretap order - Dec 17, 2005

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Conservative Persecution Complex affects 1 of every 4 Americans. If you or your family members feel CPC, please contact a doctor so that they may prescribe a Reality Pill. If you are pregnant or suffering of schizophrenia, you should not take a Reality Pill. A Reality Pill may work for you if you are a partisan hack with CPC. A Reality Pill may affect your sensory organs by giving you a reality check. If you have any concerns about CPC or the Reality Pill, please contact your doctor immediately.

This from the guy who thinks Benghazi was just a frat party fight.
 
This from the guy who thinks Benghazi was just a frat party fight.

When youve got nothing to come back with, make up ****. Classic Erod. I wont expect you to back that nonsensical statement up with anything of substance - please, please do. Some of my comments on the matter refering to it as a frat party fight? Or are you going to tuck tail and run in classic fashion? I just showed you that this IN FACT has been going on since 2005 AT LEAST, and there was no Conservative uproar then. So why now?
 
When youve got nothing to come back with, make up ****. Classic Erod. I wont expect you to back that nonsensical statement up with anything of substance - please, please do. Some of my comments on the matter refering to it as a frat party fight? Or are you going to tuck tail and run in classic fashion? I just showed you that this IN FACT has been going on since 2005 AT LEAST, and there was no Conservative uproar then. So why now?

I don't argue with tools. You're a lost cause that I don't care to engage. Ignore me, and I'll do the same your way.
 
I think they're having problems with just how 'espionage' is practiced.

Understanding that there are spooks and counterspooks, why is it suddenly necessary and proper to take data from all German citizens?

Why is it necessary for the Russians to still have sleeper agents living on foreign soil?

Simply put, they do it because they can, and because someone else is probably already doing something similar to them.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were far more frightening programs than the NSA data taping which has just been revealed taking place all over the world even as we speak.

Do friends really 'bug' friends?

They've been known to do far worse, as a matter of fact.

USS Liberty Incident

International affairs is a scary business, when you get to the bottom of things.
 
So you're saying there should be a "proper" way to spy?

The multicultural failings of Europe make this necessary. That experiment has blown up in their face badly.

I would say there is certainly an "improper" way to spy, and the US has recently demonstrated that method.

Yes, that implies that there would be a proper way.
 
Why is it necessary for the Russians to still have sleeper agents living on foreign soil?

Simply put, they do it because they can, and because someone else is probably already doing something similar to them.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were far more frightening programs than the NSA data taping which has just been revealed taking place all over the world even as we speak.



They've been known to do far worse, as a matter of fact.

USS Liberty Incident

International affairs is a scary business, when you get to the bottom of things.

I agree with everything you've said so far, but you have not demonstrated that gathering all communications from everybody everywhere has a valid purpose or a legal foundation.
 
I would say there is certainly an "improper" way to spy, and the US has recently demonstrated that method.

Yes, that implies that there would be a proper way.

So where's this published "Rules for Spying". LOL
 
I would say there is certainly an "improper" way to spy, and the US has recently demonstrated that method.

Yes, that implies that there would be a proper way.
There is no proper way to spy.

But no improper way either, really.
 
So where's this published "Rules for Spying". LOL

We both agree there are none, I assume.

The point is that our "allies", the "coalition of the willing" and all that pap, are justifiably angry over our disingenuous and juvenile invasion of their space. It's rather like parents who tell their children they trust them, and then proceed to conduct secret searches of their places and effects.

They see what a 2 faced hypocrite this government is, and they're not happy about it.
 
We both agree there are none, I assume.

The point is that our "allies", the "coalition of the willing" and all that pap, are justifiably angry over our disingenuous and juvenile invasion of their space. It's rather like parents who tell their children they trust them, and then proceed to conduct secret searches of their places and effects.

They see what a 2 faced hypocrite this government is, and they're not happy about it.

They're doing every bit the same thing we are. This is a bunch of posturing for public sentiment, and nothing more. Everybody spies on everybody, and this time, we're the ones with our hand in the cookie jar because of Benedict Snowden.

Not saying I agree. Just saying this is what EVERY country of means does.
 
They're doing every bit the same thing we are. This is a bunch of posturing for public sentiment, and nothing more. Everybody spies on everybody, and this time, we're the ones with our hand in the cookie jar because of Benedict Snowden.

Not saying I agree. Just saying this is what EVERY country of means does.

I suspect that is true, but I have no way of knowing.

I do not object to spying, and even if I did it would not make any difference, but it seems to me that the European indignation is well founded.

Maybe they do, but I doubt very much they are gathering such megadata on the entire world as we are. Maybe they are, but I doubt it. They don't have enough land left to build the huge warehouses for the computers. ;) That's a joke.

Certainly in time of war spying is necessary. The War On Terror is fraudulent from start to finish, so I do not accept that as a legitimate reason to justify such spying as is being done.

Benedict Snowden? How about Colbert's AT&Treason? How about Gunslinger George Obama?

Snowden is no traitor, he is a conscientious citizen who objects to the criminal actions of his government.
 
We both agree there are none, I assume.

The point is that our "allies", the "coalition of the willing" and all that pap, are justifiably angry over our disingenuous and juvenile invasion of their space. It's rather like parents who tell their children they trust them, and then proceed to conduct secret searches of their places and effects.

They see what a 2 faced hypocrite this government is, and they're not happy about it.
It's all BS designed for public consumption though - I'd bet they've been spying on us too.
 
I suspect that is true, but I have no way of knowing.

I do not object to spying, and even if I did it would not make any difference, but it seems to me that the European indignation is well founded.

Maybe they do, but I doubt very much they are gathering such megadata on the entire world as we are. Maybe they are, but I doubt it. They don't have enough land left to build the huge warehouses for the computers. ;) That's a joke.

Certainly in time of war spying is necessary. The War On Terror is fraudulent from start to finish, so I do not accept that as a legitimate reason to justify such spying as is being done.

Benedict Snowden? How about Colbert's AT&Treason? How about Gunslinger George Obama?

Snowden is no traitor, he is a conscientious citizen who objects to the criminal actions of his government.

So the rest of the NSA is made up entirely of criminals? He's the only "conscientious citizen" among them?

No, this is an attention whore not happy where his life was headed. There were far better ways to do this, and he chose the instant celebrity route.
 
I agree with everything you've said so far, but you have not demonstrated that gathering all communications from everybody everywhere has a valid purpose or a legal foundation.

I couldn't even begin to speculate as to the "valid purpose" behind such a program without first knowing its intent. The NSA might've wanted some specific bit of information which the Germans weren't going to give up otherwise, or they might've simply been performing general surveillance on the off chance that something of value might eventually pop up.

It's impossible to say for sure without knowing the NSA's mindset.

Furthermore, while I'm sure the program was wildly illegal, it should be noted that espionage is pretty much always illegal. This has never stopped anyone from performing intelligence gathering operations on foreign soil in the past, and it certainly won't prevent them from doing so in the future.

"Cloak and dagger" is hardly a line of work where most people worrying about "playing by the rules" in the first place.
 
If I had known that you were going to read my post to another poster, I would not have been as subtle and playful as I was ... but you defending BHO on what? Normally you're accusing him of one thing or another ...

BHO is on the right side of the NSA-Snowden kerfluffle. My hypocrisy meter was in the red zone all day hearing the Euros' comments.:cool:
 
Building on the point of the gravity of the matter, Reuters is now carrying the following banner: Breaking News: U.S. will provide all information that European allies want regarding spying allegations: Obama

Given the profound implications, I am not surprised that the White House would take such a sweeping posture. The value of the strategic relationships involved is vastly greater than any of the possible benefits derived from the alleged activities. Doing anything less risked undermining critical U.S. interests. This is a welcome development.

Of course they'll get a watered down report on the activities probably data on 30% of the most innocent kinds of stuff.
 
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