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Supreme Court punts on affirmative action case

captainawesome said:
No it didn't.

All minority law students currently at the University if Houston are scholars and high achievers.

I assume UT is the same. If you know otherwise tell us who doesnt deserve to be there.
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What am I, Confucius? I'm not in the admissions department of any major university. What I do know is that AA has been used to apply force to certain situations, creating legitimacy to words like "diversity" and "quotas".

Otherwise, these whispers would not exist. Connecticut firefighters could take a test without it getting ripped up because 19 of the highest 20 scorers were white. Whites with better scores wouldn't get passed over for minorities in the guise of creating a "blended" campus.

Affirmative Action's intent was just. Its application was just awful.
 
captainawesome said:
So some marginal white didnt get in. White students who deserve to be there will be there.

I have never had a problem. Got into UH law and they have a diversity program.
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So whites "deserve" to be passed over for less qualified minorities? How long must this "desreved" punishment persist?
 
Deuce said:
Just saw an interesting speculation:

The votes to gut affirmative action are there, but the more senior judges didn't want to overturn it with an 8-court vote when one of the votes to keep affirmative action is recused, as that would undermine the apparent legitimacy of the decision.

Ginsburg's dissent, by the way, is awesome:


Abigail Fisher was not a well-chosen plaintiff. She had mediocre grades and SAT score, but no, it must be because she was white. :roll:
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You've side stepped the most important consideration of all, which is if she had applied with that SAT and those grades as a black or latino would she have gained admission? I'm guessing that she'd have been a shoe in. GPA = 3.59 and SAT = 1180 and she was "inadmissable regardless of race"? Bull****. People who believe that have got no right to talk about ostriches with their heads in the sand.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
So whites "deserve" to be passed over for less qualified minorities? How long must this "desreved" punishment persist?
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You assume a white was crossed over. I wasn't and don't know any that were. The minority students I know seem to be high achievers.

There are still more whites in UH law than all other races. I bet UT is still mostly white too.
 
Summerwind said:
When I was a child I thought like you. Then I went to Texas A&M and learned how wrong I was and how socially and deeply and institutionally off-balance the real world is. In 1977 the only black students at A&M were jocks or soldiers (had been or were to be). All other black students connected to the A&M school went to a place called Prairieview, iirc, which was nothing really more than a glorified high school. There were however plenty of blacks working the low-end jobs at the mess hall and bldg maintenance, ie janitors.
Additionally I happened into a job doing social work in deep East Texas, from College Station to the coast. What I saw really ripped me a new perspective on this subject. Never again did I feel as though we had even come close to recovering from Jim Crow and all that it burdens those of non-white color in the Texas....
Facing and dealing with reality is so much more ...real, than on-line opining from ivory towers.
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The Black Awareness Committee at A&M was created in 1970: Building Leaders, Living Traditions: The Memorial Student Center at Texas A ... - Amy L. Bacon - Google Books

In 1976 Fred McClure became the first African-American student body president:

In Fulfillment of a Dream - African-Americans at Texas A&M University
 
LowDown said:
You've side stepped the most important consideration of all, which is if she had applied with that SAT and those grades as a black or latino would she have gained admission? I'm guessing that she'd have been a shoe in. GPA = 3.59 and SAT = 1180 and she was "inadmissable regardless of race"? Bull****. People who believe that have got no right to talk about ostriches with their heads in the sand.
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Yep. That's the whole point of AA: If statistics A-Z make two people indistinguishable, lets look at the color of their skin to break the tie.
 
captainawesome said:
You assume a white was crossed over. I wasn't and don't know any that were. The minority students I know seem to be high achievers.

There are still more whites in UH law than all other races. I bet UT is still mostly white too.
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So your defense of that is to state that there are more whites in UH law? When there are less whites in all of America than other races, you can make a legitimate argument. Otherwise - nope.

Scores are scores. Actually, I think that admissions boards shouldn't include face-to-face interviews with potential applicants, as it may unduly sway the pendulum.
 
LowDown said:
You've side stepped the most important consideration of all, which is if she had applied with that SAT and those grades as a black or latino would she have gained admission? I'm guessing that she'd have been a shoe in. GPA = 3.59 and SAT = 1180 and she was "inadmissable regardless of race"? Bull****. People who believe that have got no right to talk about ostriches with their heads in the sand.
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She would not have gotten in if she was black either. There were better students turned away from UH law of all races.
 
Gipper said:
So your defense of that is to state that there are more whites in UH law? When there are less whites in all of America than other races, you can make a legitimate argument. Otherwise - nope.

Scores are scores. Actually, I think that admissions boards shouldn't include face-to-face interviews with potential applicants, as it may unduly sway the pendulum.
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Most students at UH law are white.

Of course face to face should be required. Jobs require interviews why shouldnt competitive schools?
 
WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court drew new limits on colleges' use of affirmative action Monday, saying that although racial preferences remain constitutional, they are permissible only if schools can first show that there are "no workable race-neutral alternatives." The court's 7-1 decision, written by Justice Anthony Kennedy, suggests that public schools can use affirmative action only as a last resort for creating a diverse student body, and raises the prospect that colleges will face a tougher burden of justifying them in the future. But the justices stopped short of issuing a broader decision either fully cementing or eliminating schools' ability to take account of an applicant's race. Instead, Kennedy wrote that public universities could adopt affirmative action plans only if they can demonstrate that there is "no workable race-neutral alternatives would produce the benefits of educational diversity."

Court calls for tougher scrutiny of affirmative action
 
captainawesome said:
Most students at UH law are white.
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Most Americans are white.

Of course face to face should be required. Jobs require interviews why shouldnt competitive schools?
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Many jobs shouldn't require face-to-face interviews as well. I'd make that argument with public sector/civil service jobs. Private sector - go ahead.
 
Gipper said:
Most Americans are white.



Many jobs shouldn't require face-to-face interviews as well. I'd make that argument with public sector/civil service jobs. Private sector - go ahead.
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Most citizens are white most students are white. Seems like things are working.
As for interviews they are important. I wouldnt hire with out one.
 
LowDown said:
I'm supposed to believe that?
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She didnt get in. You say she would have if she were a different color. Show people with lower performance that got in. If there arent any then she wouldn't have gotten in anyway.
 
captainawesome said:
She would not have gotten in if she was black either. There were better students turned away from UH law of all races.
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I didn't see the university provided their applicants information in ranked order showing the cutoff line. Can you link to where that is?
 
Samhain said:
I didn't see the university provided their applicants information in ranked order showing the cutoff line. Can you link to where that is?
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Exactly so you dont know she got passed over for a less qualified applicant.

She was an average student who didnt get into a competitive school.
 
Napoleon said:
At issue here is whether or not minorities with equal or lesser grades and scores were admitted because of their race while Mrs. Fisher was removed from consideration for applying while white. The only good to come out of this decision is that a University's say-so is no longer good enough to establish an intent to create diversity through these policies. As if that justifies racism.
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If they've got a bunch of students with equal qualifications, they may not have the room to accept them all. If there's 10 openings left, and 15 students with equal qualifications....well, how're you gonna pick? Random? But how do you know you don't get sued by the ones that lost out in the random draw?

Her qualifications were OK, but nothing special...

When I was in HS, getting into the National Honor Society was something most of us wanted. There was a bottom basement floor of an 85 average to get in, meaning that if you had an 84 you didn't get in no matter what else you did. A friend of mine had an 85 average and his only extracurricular was intramural bowling, but he felt that he should have gotten in because he met the minimum requirement. A lot of things were considered.

This chick wasn't exactly a superstar. She was alright - she almost made the automatic admission (top 10%) but not quite. So the question then is, what differentiates her? Why pick her and not another student? Do you take the slightly lower GPA with more extracurriculars of a black student over the slightly higher GPA with fewer extracurriculars of a white student? It's hard to make a case either way. Now if she could prove that the ONLY reason was race, that's a case. If there were other variables, then what is the court supposed to do?
 
captainawesome said:
Exactly so you dont know she got passed over for a less qualified applicant.

She was an average student who didnt get into a competitive school.
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And neither do you, so quit trying to make your opinion off as fact.
 
Samhain said:
And neither do you, so quit trying to make your opinion off as fact.
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I am being logical.

You make an accusation. She had average grades and didnt get into a competitive school. I see no reason to think it was about race.
 
captainawesome said:
You assume a white was crossed over. I wasn't and don't know any that were. The minority students I know seem to be high achievers.

There are still more whites in UH law than all other races. I bet UT is still mostly white too.
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That is precisely what this court case was to decide. I only assume that the allegation made in this case merits fair examination. Simply because the NBA has blacks overrepresented does not mean that any whites were discriminated against, that is not what is being discussed. What is being discussed is if race/geographic location of your residence (HS) within the state is being considered when only academic acheivement should be considered. Quotas, whether using your individual race directly or only the racial make-up of your neighborhood (still very closely related), have been deemed to be illegal racial discrimination whether used for the "good" or not.
 
rocket88 said:
If they've got a bunch of students with equal qualifications, they may not have the room to accept them all. If there's 10 openings left, and 15 students with equal qualifications....well, how're you gonna pick? Random? But how do you know you don't get sued by the ones that lost out in the random draw?

Her qualifications were OK, but nothing special...

When I was in HS, getting into the National Honor Society was something most of us wanted. There was a bottom basement floor of an 85 average to get in, meaning that if you had an 84 you didn't get in no matter what else you did. A friend of mine had an 85 average and his only extracurricular was intramural bowling, but he felt that he should have gotten in because he met the minimum requirement. A lot of things were considered.

This chick wasn't exactly a superstar. She was alright - she almost made the automatic admission (top 10%) but not quite. So the question then is, what differentiates her? Why pick her and not another student? Do you take the slightly lower GPA with more extracurriculars of a black student over the slightly higher GPA with fewer extracurriculars of a white student? It's hard to make a case either way. Now if she could prove that the ONLY reason was race, that's a case. If there were other variables, then what is the court supposed to do?
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This is an academic environment, so I'd go with the academics over some extra-curriculars.
 
ocean515 said:
Thanks for that. A very quick glance indicates graduation rates are as big a concern to UT as they are in the California State, and University of California campuses.

What has been discovered here is that a disproportionate number of freshman who were admitted through diversity programs have had very difficult times meeting the basic core knowledge levels needed to advance.

In far too many cases, these students have taken on student loans to pay for the initial tuition expense, only to drop out later when they discover they were ill prepared for the depth of skill and knowledge required in college level courses.

This seems to be the elephant in the room when it comes to affirmative action programs related to college entrance programs. It's also a statistic that seems to be difficult for many administrators to discuss.

At least they have recognized the challenge at UT, based on the link you provided.
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Good afternoon, ocean515. :2wave:

I'm not certain what's going on here, but it sounds like the dumbing-down in education has run into the brick wall of unwanted results! So can we expect that college courses will be made easier to complete, so no one's feelings are hurt? Sort of like giving every kid a trophy and a box of juice when they compete in sports? :shock:
 
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