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Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

Stability I agree with, although "stability" in and of itself doesn't explain the value. Stability of what? And why is that stability a value for the state?

Conflicts over pairings and monogamy? I think it would be hard to make an argument that the state is affected by these things one way or another and it would be even harder to argue that marriage reduces conflicts over "pairings". If anything, marriage increases conflict. Nothing uglier than divorce court. Although I can see some special appeal in the antics that would be highlighted in a new TV series called "Gay Divorce Court".

Stable family units commit less crimes, are more self-sufficient, and pay more taxes. This is a state interest. Same-sex marriage promotes this stability.
 
You don't really understand the gay population if you think many of them actually want to get married. This isn't a big issue for them because so many of them want to get married. It's a big issue because it would establish that homosexuality was just as normal as heterosexuality, at least per their argument. But then again, that's the male homosexual population. I think the female homosexual population might be more inclined to commit to monogamy. Men simply aren't inclined to monogamy and the chance of a homosexual relationship remaining monogamous for long is very, very slim.

Since when is this a criteria for deciding personal rights?
 
Since when is this a criteria for deciding personal rights?

It's not. You, apparently, weren't taking it in the context of the discussion because it was in reference to the notion that the "gay population" actually wants to get married (more than the heterosexual population). They don't.
 
As a libertarian I don't believe the government should be in the business of marriage at all.
Libertarian Party 2012 Platform Adopted in Convention, May 2012, Las Vegas, NV

1.3 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government's treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships.
With a marriage license, the government does not regulate relationships. The government regulates taxes, inheritance rights, medical proxi, child custody, and other legal matters.

The relationship is up to you. The government does not stop any consenting adult from having whatever kind of personal relationship they desire with another consenting adult.
 
With a marriage license, the government does not regulate relationships. The government regulates taxes, inheritance rights, medical proxi, child custody, and other legal matters.

The relationship is up to you. The government does not stop any consenting adult from having whatever kind of personal relationship they desire with another consenting adult.

They've definitely gotten a lot better, but it still does decide to equip certain citizens with special privileges, while denying the same privileges to others. I happen to believe that the law should be applied evenly and fairly.

There's no rational reason to oppose SSM. Nothing they do "demeans" your straight marriage. Those that oppose it only tend to do it because they think jesus wants them to.
 
They've definitely gotten a lot better, but it still does decide to equip certain citizens with special privileges, while denying the same privileges to others.
Absolutely it does, you're right. I just support giving certain groups special privileges while denying other groups. The criteria I use to judge rather a given group should have said privileges or not is simple: is the relationship otherwise harmful. Polygamy is harmful to women while SSM is not harmful to anyone, so polygamists can go boil an egg while gays are getting married, and "marriage equality" and "equal rights" and all that bull**** can go **** itself.

There's no rational reason to oppose SSM.
I read that to mean there's no reason you agree with, because there certainly are reasons which exist firmly within a logical construct.
 
I read that to mean there's no reason you agree with, because there certainly are reasons which exist firmly within a logical construct.

None that I've seen. 95% of it is "jesus told me so" and the other 5% is "gays could never raise children properly", which is also completely false, and has absolutely nothing to do with marriage.
 
None that I've seen. 95% of it is "jesus told me so" and the other 5% is "gays could never raise children properly", which is also completely false, and has absolutely nothing to do with marriage.
Well....I'm afraid if I go down the road of providing examples (not that I support them, I just see the reasoning behind them) we will derail the thread with a tangent neither of us really care about anyway.
 
Absolutely it does, you're right. I just support giving certain groups special privileges while denying other groups. The criteria I use to judge rather a given group should have said privileges or not is simple: is the relationship otherwise harmful. Polygamy is harmful to women while SSM is not harmful to anyone, so polygamists can go boil an egg while gays are getting married, and "marriage equality" and "equal rights" and all that bull**** can go **** itself.


I read that to mean there's no reason you agree with, because there certainly are reasons which exist firmly within a logical construct.

Jerry, I am not going to read the whole thread, but something you asserted above just doesn't ring well with me. I bolded it.

"Polygamy is harmful to women".

Jerry, I am no supporter of polygamy, but that is just plain stupid. Its a voluntary choice, which can be rescinded. If you want to argue that its not smart for most women, forgive me for pointing it out, but "smart" is not for the government to legislate when it comes to emotions. And by whatever hair-brained standard you sought cover by, I would put forward that SSM can sure be harmful to some, as can be good old basic one man- one woman marriage.

I am quite Conservative. But your post struck me as really stupid. Really really stupid. I think you need to go back to square one with your logic, and take your time with a do-over.
 
Jerry, I am not going to read the whole thread, but something you asserted above just doesn't ring well with me. I bolded it.

"Polygamy is harmful to women".

Jerry, I am no supporter of polygamy, but that is just plain stupid. Its a voluntary choice, which can be rescinded. If you want to argue that its not smart for most women, forgive me for pointing it out, but "smart" is not for the government to legislate when it comes to emotions. And by whatever hair-brained standard you sought cover by, I would put forward that SSM can sure be harmful to some, as can be good old basic one man- one woman marriage.

I am quite Conservative. But your post struck me as really stupid. Really really stupid. I think you need to go back to square one with your logic, and take your time with a do-over.

Hm...being forced to compete for your spouse's attention for yourself and for your children? Having children who could compete for future spouses kicked out of the home? The fact that such institutions tend to be coerced via religious pressures from an early age? The tendency to create imbalanced communities along gender lines? The tendency to devalue women and treat them as interchangeable?

I'm sorry, but we can observe the effects of polygamy in foreign countries and even within some of the religious movements within our country. The effects are not good and trying to compare them to regular marriage or same sex marriage is intellectually dishonest or ignorant.
 
Hm...being forced to compete for your spouse's attention for yourself and for your children? Having children who could compete for future spouses kicked out of the home? The fact that such institutions tend to be coerced via religious pressures from an early age? The tendency to create imbalanced communities along gender lines? The tendency to devalue women and treat them as interchangeable?

I'm sorry, but we can observe the effects of polygamy in foreign countries and even within some of the religious movements within our country. The effects are not good and trying to compare them to regular marriage or same sex marriage is intellectually dishonest or ignorant.

Hey. You have created a strawman in the ilk of the Jeffries communes. This ain't about that bull****. But more to the point, polygamy is no different than our concept of regular marriage, in that it is supposed to be a contract among consenting adults. It is voluntarily agreed to, and can be voluntarily voided. What you are arguing are arranged marriages, and the bequeathing of minors. That is complete red-herring BS.

So how about arguing that point without all the bull**** ?

Your argument is so pathetic Just as goddamn stupid as I said it was.
 
Hey. You have created a strawman in the ilk of the Jeffries communes. This ain't about that bull****. But more to the point, polygamy is no different than our concept of regular marriage, in that it is supposed to be a contract among consenting adults. It is voluntarily agreed to, and can be voluntarily voided. What you are arguing are arranged marriages, and the bequeathing of minors. That is complete red-herring BS.

So how about arguing that point without all the bull**** ?

Your argument is so pathetic Just as goddamn stupid as I said it was.

Uh huh. You are just going to ignore how polygamy is ACTUALLY practiced in the real world for an idealized version? You can consent to a polygamous marriage, but let us be real. Once you have made the commitment of having children with someone, you can't just walk away because the reality then is you are no longer making decisions for just yourself. You won't even address that polygamy is inherently a bad idea because of human dynamics within it and the overall effects it has on destabilizing society. Pretend all you want that polygamy is harmless, but there are plenty of real world examples that demonstrate otherwise and pretending they don't exist because they are inconvenient to your point of view is disingenuous at best and outright delusional at worst.
 
Its a voluntary choice, which can be rescinded.
In practice, polygamists arrange marriages, marry their wives in the early teens, and the women have no where to go to try and escape. We had polygamy for a while, not just certain Christian sects but with our 'Natives also. Women suffer where polygamy is legal.
 
More excellent writeup on SCOTUSblog as usual: Waiting on Proposition 8 and DOMA decisions: In Plain English : SCOTUSblog

On DOMA:

Let’s start with United States v. Windsor, the challenge to the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which may wind up as the less complicated of the two. (More background on the case can be found in my earlier posts here, here, and here.) And let’s be clear on what this case is not about: it is not about whether there is a constitutional right to same-sex marriage. Instead, it is about whether Congress can treat married same-sex couples differently from married opposite-sex couples in federal laws and programs like Social Security benefits, immigration, and income taxes.

...

To the extent that you can make any predictions based on the oral argument, Windsor and her supporters may have reason to be cautiously optimistic. The Court’s four more liberal Justices – Justices Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor, and Kagan – seemed to be squarely on her side. They may also have a vote from Justice Anthony Kennedy (who is often regarded as the swing vote on the Court) to strike down the law as well, although perhaps for a different reason. Generally a staunch supporter of states’ rights, he seemed troubled by the idea that with DOMA Congress was trying to regulate marriage – which, he seemed to indicate, has traditionally been the role of the states.


But there’s a chance that the Court might not even get to the question whether DOMA is constitutional at all. The case may have a fatal procedural flaw. In a normal case that comes to the Court, the party that lost in the lower court is the one asking the Court to review the case. But this is not, as you may have figured out by now, the average case. Windsor and the United States won in the lower court, by getting a ruling that DOMA is unconstitutional. And to make things even more complicated, usually it is the federal government that appears in court to defend the constitutionality of federal laws, but the government isn’t doing that here; House Republicans are doing it instead.

On Hollingsworth v Perry(Prop 8):

There is a threshold question of “standing” that piqued the interest of several Justices – the Chief Justice and the Court’s four more liberal Justices in particular – who seemed inclined at oral argument to hold that the sponsors of Proposition 8 lacked the legal right to defend it in court. Justice Kennedy, who had recently suggested that the Court was deciding too many hot-button issues that should be decided by the legislature instead, seemed skeptical about a potential problem with the sponsors’ “standing” but offered another path to avoid deciding whether Proposition 8 violates the Constitution: the Court could simply dismiss the case on the ground that it had made a mistake in taking it on.


The one thing that didn’t seem likely after the oral argument was what some supporters of same-sex marriage had long feared: a decision holding that the state’s ban on same-sex marriage is constitutional. As I explained in an earlier post, some gay rights groups had been irked by Boies and Olson’s decision to bring the Proposition 8 case at all; that split reflected a concern that the country wasn’t ready yet for same-sex marriage, and that a ruling upholding Proposition 8 would be a huge setback for the cause. Of course, public support for same-sex marriage has swelled significantly in the four years since Olson and Boies filed their lawsuit, and the expectations of same-sex marriage supporters have increased along with that support. And so it will be more than a little ironic if the same people who once feared a ruling on the merits will now be disappointed that they won’t get one.

Should find out a little after 10 if the court is handing down rulings on these cases today.
 
So what did they decide?
 
Court is issuing orders right now. They are expected to issue judgements at 10, and of course I am scheduled to go out at 10 so might be awhile finding anything out. Of interest from the orders is that Cert was ranted for NLRB V. NOEL CANNING, ET AL, which is the case involving the president making recess appointments when the senate is convening every three days in pro forma sessions.
 
Court is issuing orders right now. They are expected to issue judgements at 10, and of course I am scheduled to go out at 10 so might be awhile finding anything out. Of interest from the orders is that Cert was ranted for NLRB V. NOEL CANNING, ET AL, which is the case involving the president making recess appointments when the senate is convening every three days in pro forma sessions.

Nothing on DOMA, Prop 8, or VRA today. We did get a non-decision on affirmative action, though! More decisions tomorrow.

Supreme Court blueballs!
 
Is there any law stopping a gay from marrying?

That's about as idiotic as saying "was there any law stopping a black person from marrying a black person?" Well, if you don't want to marry a black person, then yes, there absolutely was.
 
Demonstrating how SSM benefits children, relationships, people, and society is the winning argument.

Actually, it is a losing proposition for children, people and society. To allow those who proclaim deviant behavior as benefiting society, while destroying the family unit would be a joke if it were not so serious and sad.
 
Actually, it is a losing proposition for children, people and society. To allow those who proclaim deviant behavior as benefiting society, while destroying the family unit would be a joke if it were not so serious and sad.

So having an avenue for gay people to form loving, lasting, stable relationships is bad for society? How so?
 
So having an avenue for gay people to form loving, lasting, stable relationships is bad for society? How so?
When you use the term gay people, I think you misuse the term. The proper term is sodomite. It is impossible for these people to offer any child a stable, loving environment since their entire lifestyle is based on a degenerate perversion of marriage, which was established by God and cannot be rightfully changed by an man.
 
When you use the term gay people, I think you misuse the term. The proper term is sodomite. It is impossible for these people to offer any child a stable, loving environment since their entire lifestyle is based on a degenerate perversion of marriage, which was established by God and cannot be rightfully changed by an man.

Reality differs from your veiwpoint on this subject.
 
Respondent argues that it didn’t need a Green Acres tax exemption for the
Pavilion; it could at any time have obtained the same benefit by applying for a tax
exemption as a religious organization. Indeed, after these events that is exactly what it
did. We are, however, bound by the facts that were, not those that might have been, or
that came to pass in the aftermath of petitioners’ application. Respondent accepted a
particular form of tax exemption that required it to keep the Pavilion open to the public
1
The term “place” can extend beyond fixed locations, but that discussion is unnecessary here.
4OAL DKT. NO. CRT 6145-09
on an equal basis, N.J.S.A. 54:4-3.64; N.J.A.C. 7:35-1.4. Neptune Township was
skeptical that this could be achieved, but respondent persuaded the DEP and renewed
that promise every three years. Thus, it not only interacted with government, it
acknowledged the very thing that the interaction test seeks to assess.

http://www.adfmedia.org/files/OGCMA-BernsteinRuling.pdf?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1#page=3

Sigh, wade through all this and ask yourself: was there a violation of The NJ Methodist Church's first amendment rights?
 
So now you're comparing consentual gay sex with child rape? Ok, I see we won't be going anywhere productive.

Or would you rather condone the rhetoric of the signature of the poster that's literally the biggest BS on this board (the font type has got to be at least 48 pt.)?

The sig is rhetoric because gay marriage advocates don't care about equal justice for all. They do care about gay marriage, though. The signature is to the effect: fight for gay marriage, fight for equal justice for all.

I'm rather sick of rhetoric from both radical sides. Two wrongs don't make a Wright. Well, unfortunately, sometimes they do.
 
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Ah. Yes, of course, I see it now. Thank you so much for the mountain of evidence presented.

There is a mountain of evidence. There are decades of research on the subject of same sex couples. There's basically no difference in outcomes for the couple or their children. Nor is there any documented detrimental effect of same sex relationships on hetero ones. Since marriage in general and private sexual conduct are protected by strict scrutiny, gender discrimination is protected by intermediate scrutiny, and same sex conduct is protected by at least intermediate scrutiny, the burden is on opponents to show proof, not on supporters. By all means, show us all the evidence you have of what legitimate (or maybe compelling) interest is furthered by prohibiting SSM, and how prohibiting SSM furthers that interest.

Or three people. Or one living person and one dead person in a couple. Or one human and one non-human in a couple. Marriage is a right, for all, ya know. And, according to the law, one can't define marriage.

You don't really understand the concept of consent, do you? Of those three examples, only the first can have consent. You do know that both (or all) participants in a marriage have to consent, right? Dead people, animals, or whatever else cannot consent. We absolutely can define marriage. We just can't definite it so as to violate the constitution.

First we'd have to try to figure out what important state interest was served by creating marriage as it exists. Then we would be able to ascertain whether or not redefining marriage to create the novel concept of "homosexual marriage" would further those goals. So why was state sanctioned marriage created in the first place?

No, we don't. Once you get past rational basis, the burden is on the government to prove why it can/should restrict liberty. Not on the people to prove why they should have it. So no, we do not have to figure any of this out.

Welfare pays more than an $8/hour job in 40 states, more than a $12/hour job in 7 states and more than the salary of a teacher in 9 states. That should give you some indication of the generousity of that welfare "lifestyle".

And weirdly, you think that this is reason to lower welfare benefits, not pay people better for working. How bizarre.

When you use the term gay people, I think you misuse the term. The proper term is sodomite. It is impossible for these people to offer any child a stable, loving environment since their entire lifestyle is based on a degenerate perversion of marriage, which was established by God and cannot be rightfully changed by an man.

But heterosexuals engaging in sodomy are just fine? Also what about lesbians? Why is always male anal sex that gets people so worked up?

Or would you rather condone the rhetoric of the signature of the poster that's literally the biggest BS on this board (the font type has got to be at least 48 pt.)?

The sig is rhetoric because gay marriage advocates don't care about equal justice for all. They do care about gay marriage, though. The signature is to the effect: fight for gay marriage, fight for equal justice for all.

If you only look at it as justice for one of the people in the relationship, and frame it as "the right of a man to marry whoever he chooses", then yes, you could misunderstand the issue like that. Tell me, how is the child being raped obtaining equal justice?
 
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