US will supply military weapons to the Syrian rebels.

the_recruit said:

But none of these are intractable problems and the prognosis for Libya is pretty damn good. Not the case for Syria. Even the most unrealistically optimistic predictions for Syria fall far short of Libya. So, point all you want at Libya, that's only going to encourage me.

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Libya is a short-term success that's going to come back and bite us in the ass in a big way, just like it usually does.

Actually, lots of people understand that. Most Americans take that position and don't want any involvement in Syria. It's the wrong position. We don't live in a vacuum. Even if you don't give two ****s about the humanitarian issues, foreign events inevitably affect us whether we like it or not. I'm not of the mind that we should sit back, cross our fingers, and just hope that things transpire in our favor.

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Only if you think the Bay of Pigs, AJAX, funding the Contras, etc. were the "right" positions. This is no different, it's just a short term solution for a long term problem. Ousting governments, especially governments who have aided the United States for a very long time, is not the right position. It's a travesty of foreign policy.

Surtr said:

Libya is a short-term success that's going to come back and bite us in the ass in a big way, just like it usually does.



Only if you think the Bay of Pigs, AJAX, funding the Contras, etc. were the "right" positions. This is no different, it's just a short term solution for a long term problem. Ousting governments, especially governments who have aided the United States for a very long time, is not the right position. It's a travesty of foreign policy.

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The Bay of Pigs, Operation Ajax and arming the Contras werent ousting governments that aided The United States.

Surtr said:

.......... funding the Contras, etc. were the "right" positions. This is no different, it's just a short term solution for a long term problem. Ousting governments, especially governments who have aided the United States for a very long time, is not the right position. It's a travesty of foreign policy.

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Hey whizz bang. Funding the Contras was hugely successful. There are no communist countries in Central America. Thank you Ronald Reagan. You got the part about "Libya biting us in the ass". But are otherwise hugely misinformed.

Eighty Deuce said:

Most of the criticism that I read about Obama and his "red-line" had nothing to do with any belief that we needed to commit forces. Rather, it was just one more display that the strutting rooster Obama, with all of his huffing and puffing, was once again shown to be a capon, and a lying one at that. He gives our foes a good laugh though.

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Perhaps, but America's friends aren't laughing.

Grant said:

Perhaps, but America's friends aren't laughing.

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Which is a perfect fit for what I said. Our enemies love Obama. Our allies think him a bumbling fool.

jonny5 said:

Unlikely to happen right now. What about after 20 more years of this? 40 more years? Obama is the most divisive president in recent history. Bush pissed off liberals. Clinton ruined the reputation of the Presidency. Bush was weak. Reagan was divisive. Carter was a joke. Nixon was a criminal. JFK was a womanizer. How much longer can it go on?

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Where was Bush weak? How was Reagan divisive when he wan 49 States in his reelection? Nixon was not a criminal and being a womanizer is not a fatal flaw.

Reagan won big because he reminded Americans of who they were and what they could be. Obama tells Americans they are greedy and that the government can look after them than they can themselves. Obama is, in many ways, the first post-American President.

iguanaman said:

You are siding with the Russians? They are simply being greedy mercenaries selling arms to a murderer.
Only Sunnis are radical islamists? Iran and Hezbolah are SHIA. They don't seem radical to you?

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Recall it was Obama who said he would help Putin after the election. It seems it is he who is siding with the Russians.

APACHERAT said:

Both Sunnis and Shiites seem radical to me.

Since the 1980's I have always looked upon Islam as being a flawed religion. It has never been a religion of peace.

Islam respects those they fear. Islam don't fear Obama so they have little respect for Obama which means they don't respect America. Obama blew it big time with his failed foreign policies. Today the Muslim Brotherhood is in control of most of the Middle East. Al Qaeda when Obama took office in 2009 was confined to two parts of the world, Yeman and the Horn of Africa. Under Obama Al Qaeda base of operations have sread all over the Middle East and North Africa while Obama ran for reelection lieing to the American people that Al Qaeda was on the run and was being decimated.

America lost it's influence in the Middle East when Obama supported the "Arab Spring" and today the entire Middle East and North Africa are a basket case. Russia now is the big boy in the Middle East.

Pay attention to Russia and watch what they do. Putin doesn't respect Obama and looks at him as an incompetent fool, which he is.
That big bear to the north is out of hibernation.

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Putin is nothing but a belligerent KGB thug everyone knows that. Why you would side with him and Hezbolah is puzzling. Assad needs to go and Russia has no business getting involved at all, no less selling them arms. They are no doubt still dumping their cold war arsenal, luckily it is all pretty outdated.

Grant said:

Where was Bush weak? How was Reagan divisive when he wan 49 States in his reelection? Nixon was not a criminal and being a womanizer is not a fatal flaw.

Reagan won big because he reminded Americans of who they were and what they could be. Obama tells Americans they are greedy and that the government can look after them than they can themselves. Obama is, in many ways, the first post-American President.

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The parallels between Reagan and Obama keep mounting up. Reagan signed the law requiring all hospital to treat patients regardless of insurance...Obama signed the AHC act that aims to make all Americans insured. Reagan signed the first "amnesty" agreement giving millons a path to citizenship....Obama may be doing the same very soon.

Uncanny isn't it?

iguanaman said:

The parallels between Reagan and Obama keep mounting up. Reagan signed the law requiring all hospital to treat patients regardless of insurance...Obama signed the AHC act that aims to make all Americans insured. Reagan signed the first "amnesty" agreement giving millons a path to citizenship....Obama may be doing the same very soon.

Uncanny isn't it?

Click to expand...

Yes, it is uncanny. Except Reagan won 49 States on his reelection bid and his law requiring all hospital to treat patients regardless of insurance makes Obamacare a rather expensive redundancy, doesn't it?

Grant said:

Yes, it is uncanny. Except Reagan won 49 States on his reelection bid and his law requiring all hospital to treat patients regardless of insurance makes Obamacare a rather expensive redundancy, doesn't it?

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You can't beat a movie star for charisma, I'll give you that. He did a pretty good job spending us out of he OPEC recession too although the dropping of interest rates from 15% was the biggest mover of GDP and employment. Obama came in when rates were already rock bottom so he could not use rates to his advantage.

iguanaman said:

Putin is nothing but a belligerent KGB thug everyone knows that. Why you would side with him and Hezbolah is puzzling. Assad needs to go and Russia has no business getting involved at all, no less selling them arms. They are no doubt still dumping their cold war arsenal, luckily it is all pretty outdated.

Click to expand...

So when did you discover that Putin was a thug ? Putin appeared on my radar screen back in the mid 90's. He's more Mafioso than KGB.

And when did I say I sided with Putin ? Please quote me, pretty please. I hope I don't have to wait to long or ignored.

Russia/Soviet Union have had close ties going back to the 60's during the Cold War and established a forward naval base at Tartus, Syria in 71.
That Russian naval base is still their and the Russians have been dumping a lot of money modernizing the base and reinforcing the base with Russian Marines.

I know two weeks ago there were 12 Russian warships operating from Tartus.
Where's the U.S. Navy ? Ask Obama. Again no U.S. Navy CSG or ARG in the 6th Fleet AOR. Obama making the same mistake he made when the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya was attacked and four Americans were murdered because of dereliction of duty by Obama by not having a military response at sea in the 6th Fleet AOR to respond to such an incident.
When the past eleven President were always able to have a carrier battle group/carrier strike group in the Mediterranean 24/7 and Obama isn't capable of doing it.

Remember, there are 30,000 Russian civilian citizen residing in Syria.

Possible scenario:

What Russia did in Georgia a back in 08. Send in a hundred thousand troop, put blue helmets on them and call them peace keepers. Deploy the troops between the rebels and Assad's forces.

Here's the difference between Putin and the Russians compared with Obama. Russians are feared but respected by Muslims because there is no such thing as "political correctness" in Russia. They don't have a PC policy of winning anyone's hearts and minds. And both sunnies and Shiites seem to know this and they respect it out of fear. Also nobody wants to confront a Russian soldier drunk on vodka.

I just heard on the news that Putin was talking to the British PM about Syria. It was mentioned the other day, it's impossible for Russia to work with Obama on ending the conflict in Syria. Lets face it, Obama isn't a statesman, he surrounded himself with second rate people. Has a failed foreign policy. And you know what Russia and many other countries think of John Kerry ? Not even Kerry's former Communist allies during the 70's respect Kerry because Kerry back stabbed the American soldier while they were still on the battlefields of Vietnam.

APACHERAT said:

S
Here's the difference between Putin and the Russians compared with Obama. Russians are feared but respected by Muslims because there is no such thing as "political correctness" in Russia. They don't have a PC policy of winning anyone's hearts and minds. And both sunnies and Shiites seem to know this and they respect it out of fear. Also nobody wants to confront a Russian soldier drunk on vodka.

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:2wave:
I wish it was true these days
Unfortunately, Russia's influence in the ME is pretty much non existent and mainly extends only to the Shia dominated countries (that's pretty much only Iran and Syria).
The Sunnah dominated countries (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Egypt, etc...) are cooperating with US and other European countries and they are no longer respect or afraid of Russia - mainly because of Russia's dumb, corrupt and weak foreign policy in the region and in the world.
Russia downgrades relations with Qatar over attack on ambassador | Russia | RIA Novosti

Moreover, Russia is also suffering from the rise of the ugly head of the PC movement, the only ones that are not affected by it yet are the residents of the rural areas of the country.

But Russian soldiers are still the best in the world (yeah that's my national pride talking) despite all the attempts of "modernization"/total corruption/plain theft and more....there is a Russian saying explaining this;
"You know why Russian soldiers are the best int he world? They simply have nothing to lose."

Cheers,
Fallen.

Fallenangel said:

:2wave:
I wish it was true these days
Unfortunately, Russia's influence in the ME is pretty much non existent and mainly extends only to the Shia dominated countries (that's pretty much only Iran and Syria).
The Sunnah dominated countries (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Egypt, etc...) are cooperating with US and other European countries and they are no longer respect or afraid of Russia - mainly because of Russia's dumb, corrupt and weak foreign policy in the region and in the world.
Russia downgrades relations with Qatar over attack on ambassador | Russia | RIA Novosti

Moreover, Russia is also suffering from the rise of the ugly head of the PC movement, the only ones that are not affected by it yet are the residents of the rural areas of the country.

But Russian soldiers are still the best in the world (yeah that's my national pride talking) despite all the attempts of "modernization"/total corruption/plain theft and more....there is a Russian saying explaining this;
"You know why Russian soldiers are the best int he world? They simply have nothing to lose."

Cheers,
Fallen.

Click to expand...

Would you say that the Russian bear has come out of hibernation ?
But any where that the head of PC appears is a bad sign. Look at what it has done to America.

Do you think the Muslim Brotherhood have their eyes on Syria ? That would be Egypt.

The Sauds are Sunnies.

As I believe, it's a religious war just like the Iraq insurrection was. The vast majority of all of the Iraqi citizens that were killed during the Iraq war weren't killed by Americans but by other Arabs.

APACHERAT said:

Would you say that the Russian bear has come out of hibernation ?

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He's trying. However, he is very weak (economically, military and socially/ideologically wise).

APACHERAT said:

But any where that the head of PC appears is a bad sign. Look at what it has done to America.

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Indeed.

APACHERAT said:

Do you think the Muslim Brotherhood have their eyes on Syria ? That would be Egypt.

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The ones that really have their eyes on Syria are Qatar, and Saudi Arabia, they slowly work their way towards a Sunnah dominated ME.
A large portion of the opposition forces in Syria are Sunni Isalmists (not Al-Qaeda) funded and supported by Qatar and Saudi Arabia.

APACHERAT said:

The Sauds are Sunnies.

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Yeah, they are Salafi Sunnies.

APACHERAT said:

As I believe, it's a religious war just like the Iraq insurrection was. The vast majority of all of the Iraqi citizens that were killed during the Iraq war weren't killed by Americans but by other Arabs.

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Yes, it started as a civil uprising but quickly grew to a confrontation between the Shia and the Sunnah, over the dominant role in the ME.
Hence, the calls for Jihad from multiple Sunni clerics. Hence, the influx of foreign Sunni and Shia (Hezbollah) fighters...etc.


Cheers,
Fallen.

iguanaman said:

You can't beat a movie star for charisma, I'll give you that. He did a pretty good job spending us out of he OPEC recession too although the dropping of interest rates from 15% was the biggest mover of GDP and employment. Obama came in when rates were already rock bottom so he could not use rates to his advantage.

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So you think all a President has to do is fiddle with the interest rates to create a new economy and all will be right? That would mean that Obama inherited those low interest rates from George Bush, so you can blame Bush for that. Perhaps Obama should increase interest rates, but Justabubba claims the President doesn't have any control over the economy, so that may not help either.

It's easy to see that Obama and his supporters are confused about interest rates, the economy, the rapid increase in the use of food stamps, failed foreign policies, the ongoing scandals, the Presidents job description, and what all of this means for the future of the country.

Now the Obama administration or the NSA, (we don't know if BHO had any input or just read about it in the newspaper) is constructing a $2 billion spy center in Utah when they can't even build a fence along the Mexican border, or keep two terrorists from Chechnya entering the United States, despite repeated warnings. It seems a cruel joke has been played on the American people.

APACHERAT said:

Would you say that the Russian bear has come out of hibernation ?
But any where that the head of PC appears is a bad sign. Look at what it has done to America.

Do you think the Muslim Brotherhood have their eyes on Syria ? That would be Egypt.

The Sauds are Sunnies.

As I believe, it's a religious war just like the Iraq insurrection was. The vast majority of all of the Iraqi citizens that were killed during the Iraq war weren't killed by Americans but by other Arabs.

Click to expand...

Absolutely. It's Muslim killing Muslim but Islamists, and the Leftists, will blame Americans for these ongoing killings, just as they did in Iraq.

It seems that the West looks at these countries as having defined borders whereas many Arabs, and Muslims, don't quite see it that way. That's most evident when they say they want Jews off "our land". It's best to avoid involvement, keep Israel safe, and wait until the sand settles.

Fallenangel said:

:2wave:
I wish it was true these days
Unfortunately, Russia's influence in the ME is pretty much non existent and mainly extends only to the Shia dominated countries (that's pretty much only Iran and Syria).
The Sunnah dominated countries (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Egypt, etc...) are cooperating with US and other European countries and they are no longer respect or afraid of Russia - mainly because of Russia's dumb, corrupt and weak foreign policy in the region and in the world.
Russia downgrades relations with Qatar over attack on ambassador | Russia | RIA Novosti

Moreover, Russia is also suffering from the rise of the ugly head of the PC movement, the only ones that are not affected by it yet are the residents of the rural areas of the country.

But Russian soldiers are still the best in the world (yeah that's my national pride talking) despite all the attempts of "modernization"/total corruption/plain theft and more....there is a Russian saying explaining this;
"You know why Russian soldiers are the best int he world? They simply have nothing to lose."

Cheers,
Fallen.

Click to expand...

Hw do you feel about this, Fallen? (not the photos!) Russian Army to become a Muslim-Majority Army by 2015-2020.

Eighty Deuce said:

Hardly. Rather it was one more example of Obama being a lot of hot air. In the hopes that maybe a few of those who blindly support him might WTFU.

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So Obama does what Republicans kept wanting, and now he's full of hot air? That makes no sense.

We did the same thing in Viet Nam.

Grant said:

Hw do you feel about this, Fallen? (not the photos!) Russian Army to become a Muslim-Majority Army by 2015-2020.

Click to expand...

I don't particularly trust whatever stats Rawil can provide.

However, he is right regarding few things (and i added a few things myself);
a. Russian population is shrinking in size - the slow growth rate that was seen in the past few years is mostly produced by immigrants and foreign workers and their families coming from ex-Soviet Union republics.
b. Russians that live in the big cities do not want to serve in the army as it considered a non prestigious job - a lot of the soldiers come from poorer rural families and from ex-Soviet republics. These days the Russian authorities are supposedly trying to reform the army - without any major achievements yet.
c. The numbers of Russian Muslims are growing due to the higher birth rates and constant influx of foreign workers/immigrants.
d. The Russian traditional Muslims are gradually being radicalized as a result of inner tensions and foreign influence.

The worst part of it all is that current Russian dysfunctional and corrupt social model can not adequately respond to those changes, instead they are often being ignored or disregarded as "natural" or necessary changes in society.
To sum up, I don't think that the Russian army would become Muslim in 2-3 years from now, the changes are fast but not that fast.
However, Russia is indeed fading away as a country/nation, culturally and socially for years now, and no one yet was able to stop that degradation.

Cheers,
Fallen.

Slyfox696 said:

So Obama does what Republicans kept wanting, and now he's full of hot air? That makes no sense.

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It's that catch22 that they have walked themselves into. The elephant in the room is that it's painfully obvious that the chem/bio weapons charges against Assad have been invented in order to justify increasing US involvement. But nobody wants to discuss that in depth because it's just too obviously a losing argument for the pro-war side.

It was a gamble to go with the charge in the first place because the last we heard from the UN's Carla Del Ponte was that the evidence was leaning toward the terrorists being guilty of chem/bio weapons use. It makes it a doubly huge gamble when it now becomes quite possible that the rest of the world is going to have to either stay in abstention or side with Russia/China.

Blame Obama, because Obama had the momentum and he dragged his feet in going to the aid of the Zionist side in this thing. Syria is, after all, only a stepping stone to the Zionist's ambitions for war with Iran.

And so, your words have again highlighted the catch22 problem in the US.

Zionist's ambitions

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zieg heil!

Grant said:

Absolutely. It's Muslim killing Muslim but Islamists, and the Leftists, will blame Americans for these ongoing killings, just as they did in Iraq.

It seems that the West looks at these countries as having defined borders whereas many Arabs, and Muslims, don't quite see it that way. That's most evident when they say they want Jews off "our land". It's best to avoid involvement, keep Israel safe, and wait until the sand settles.

Click to expand...

The Middle East and North Africa have always been very tribal. It was Great Britain and France who established the boundaries in the Middle East and along with Spain in North Africa. So when these countries that were actually formed by Europeans gained their independence it always took a strong dictatorial type ruler to run these countries and keep things calm and peaceful.

Look at Libya today, it's beyond being a basket case, it's more than the wild wild west. It seems to be breaking down to three seperat countries. I was wondering where were the Berbers when Obama was creating a Hell hole ?

The Prof said:

zieg heil!

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And that's bordering on a personal insult. I'll let it go this time but not if you decide to escalate your bad behaviour toward me. Now I suggest you just let it go and save us both a lot of trouble.