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Obamacare: Is a $2,000 deductible 'affordable?'

Oh good Lord! Why is it that progressives always need to see the destruction stemming from the their misguided plans before they will even contemplate that they got it wrong.

It's the scientific method, and also common sense, that you need to see data to back up your hypothesis before declaring it to be correct.

You are also mistake that because I oppose you in this thread I am necessarily supportive of Obama's healthcare plan. Sloppy reasoning. The only thing progressive about me is my desire to see society progress to a true free market economy. I don't support PACA, but I simply cannot abide the intellectual deficiencies of your bull**** arguments. We probably agree about the policy issues, but your partisan hackery and intellectual dishonesty will always earn you my wrath.
 
So, if you break your leg, do you shop around for the best place to get it set?

If your child passes out, do you go to the yellow pages and shop around to see who will give you the best rates?

If you're on vacation and get a really bad, possibly deadly infection, do you just wait till you get home to see your doctor?

If you do any of these things, you'd not only be stupid. You (or your child) would be dead.

This is why the market is very different when it comes to healthcare.

Emergency services you have a small point, but even then many emergency services are not life threatening. For example that broken leg you speak of. If you are transported to a hospital and it is a simple fracture that needs to be set, chances are that you do have the availability to shop around for price points, and competency.

In other scenarios that may not be the case, but no one ever said that the system didn't need to be fixed, just that taking it over in a quasi fascist way was not the answer.
 
It's the scientific method, and also common sense, that you need to see data to back up your hypothesis before declaring it to be correct.

You are also mistake that because I oppose you in this thread I am necessarily supportive of Obama's healthcare plan. Sloppy reasoning. The only thing progressive about me is my desire to see society progress to a true free market economy. I don't support PACA, but I simply cannot abide the intellectual deficiencies of your bull**** arguments. We probably agree about the policy issues, but your partisan hackery and intellectual dishonesty will always earn you my wrath.

Ok, let me back up a little then...I think that once this law is fully implemented that it will cause a rapid decline into services, and quality of care given to the point that the government will have no choice but to take it over fully, and run it. At that point, you will see some of the horrors reported by other countries in their own UHC systems, just in time for me to reach the point in my life where I will need increasing levels of health care....
 
ibd this morning:

Local Governments Cut Part-Time Hours To Avoid ObamaCare Mandate - Investors.com

When Regal Entertainment Group (RGC) in April blamed ObamaCare for the fact that it was cutting some of its workers' hours, backers of the law mounted a furious backlash against the theater chain, among other things filling its Facebook page with boycott threats.

"Greed and selfishness make me sick," one of them said.

Darden Restaurants (DRI) felt this intense heat last year after suggesting it might shift to more part-time work to minimize the cost of the law's mandate that companies offer coverage to all their full-time workers. CEO Clarence Otis even blamed its lowered outlook for 2013 in part on "recent negative media coverage" over "how we might accommodate health care reform."

Yet while private companies are getting all this unwelcome and hostile attention, local governments across the country have been doing exactly the same thing — cutting part-time hours specifically so they can skirt ObamaCare's costly employer mandate, while complaining about the law in some of the harshest terms anyone has uttered in public.

The result is that part-time government workers — many of them low-income — face pay cuts that can top $3,000 a year, and yet will still be left without employer-provided benefits.

Here is just a small sampling of local news reports about what local government officials are saying about ObamaCare, and the steps they're taking to avoid or minimize its costs.

Phillipsburg, Kan.: "School administrators here say they are alarmed and confounded by the looming new costs they face with the implementation of the Affordable Care Act," according to the Kaiser Health Institute News Service. Chris Hipp, director of a Kansas special education cooperative, warned that ObamaCare's costs "could put us all out of business or change significantly how we do business," adding that "we are not built to pay full health benefits for noncertified folks who work a little more than 1,000 hours a year."

Dearborn, Mich.: "If we had to provide health care and other benefits to all of our employees, the burden on the city would be tremendous," said Mayor John O'Reilly, explaining why the city is cutting its more than 700 part-time and seasonal workers down to 28 hours a week. "The city is like any private or public employer having to adjust to changes in the law."

Indiana: "What I'm seeing across the state is school districts, unfortunately, having to reduce the hours that they are having some of their folks work, primarily so they don't have to worry about the (ObamaCare) penalties, or they don't have to provide them health insurance, which would be very, very costly," said Dennis Costerison, executive director of the Indiana Association of School Business Officials. Ft. Wayne Community Schools, for example, are cutting hours for nearly three-quarters of its part-time aides.

surprised?
 


Not surprised in the least, it's just more of the same. Americans appear to be willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces. All to buck Obama on an issue that they were overwhelmingly in favour of fixing right from the beginning. Before they started erecting roadblocks that would attempt to ensure it's failure.

Oh, but wait, maybe I'm missing something important here?
Why yes I am. The rest of the world with universal health care are a bunch of commies!
Got it!
 
the gao is racist

today:

Government officials have missed several deadlines in setting up new health-insurance exchanges for small businesses and consumers—a key part of the federal health overhaul—and there is a risk they won’t be ready to open on time in October, Congress’s watchdog arm said.

The Government Accountability Office said federal and state health officials still have major work to complete, offering its most cautious comments to date about the Obama administration’s ability to bring the centerpiece of its signature law to fruition.

“Whether [the government's] contingency planning will assure the timely and smooth implementation of the exchanges by October 2013 cannot yet be determined,” said the GAO in twin reports to be released Wednesday.

Health-Insurance Exchanges Are Falling Behind Schedule - WSJ.com
 
Of course I do. I pay for mine each month and now, thanks to Obamacare I'll get to pay someone elses too!

That's where you are INCREDIBLY wrong.

Almost all insurance is you subsidizing someone else. You aren't simply "paying for yours." You're paying into a risk pool with a lot of other people. Some of you will be healthy and the insurance company will make money off of you. Others will not be and the insurance company will lose money. The reason "individual" policies are so much more expensive than employer policies is because your risk pool is much smaller and the odds are higher that someone will use more than they pay in - thus premium is higher. If you work for a company of 15,000 people, your premiums are lower because the risk is shared with more people.

This is the most BASIC principle of insurance. If you don't get that you've been subsidizing others ALL ALONG, then you are way out of your league when it comes to this topic.
 
Emergency services you have a small point, but even then many emergency services are not life threatening. For example that broken leg you speak of. If you are transported to a hospital and it is a simple fracture that needs to be set, chances are that you do have the availability to shop around for price points, and competency.

In other scenarios that may not be the case, but no one ever said that the system didn't need to be fixed, just that taking it over in a quasi fascist way was not the answer.

The biggest problem - and you're right that the ACA doesn't address it - is cost. Our "market" system is highly flawed. It incentivises all the wrong things - rewarding hypochondriacs and the doctors who exploit them while punishing ones who need legitimate care. It also ignores simple solutions and treatments, in favor of expensive, highly profitable ones - regardless of outcomes. And we needlessly try to desperately hang onto life toward the end, when it's simply wasting money (I'm not talking about a 60-year-old fighting cancer; I'm talking about a 90-year-old whose family refuses to let go - we spend a LOT of money on those types).

For instance, Americans are ordered colonoscopies more than any other nation in the world. We do them "because we should at your age," even though there is no real medical sign that it's necessary. When people try to dial that back, we shout: DEATH PANEL!!! We also pay at least twice what others pay in the world for colonoscopies.

So, I'll agree with you that the ACA doesn't do anything for cost - at least not at present.

But you have to recognize that no matter what type of insurance you have, you are already subsidizing the care of others - even the uninsured. And the way we're doing it right now is way too expensive.
 
Love brave politicians:

Politically, the strategy is similar to the one many Republicans who voted for the Iraq War pursued when the public soured on the war. They’d defend their support for the war effort while finding a way to distance themselves from elements of President Bush’s strategy, such as troop levels. Ultimately, this didn’t shield many Republicans from the Democratic wave in 2006 and I imagine if Obamacare implementation fails, a Baucus-style pivot won’t save vulnerable Democrats.
 
The biggest problem - and you're right that the ACA doesn't address it - is cost

but that was the point, bending down the cost trajectory

Rising Health Costs Undermine Obama Pledge to Curb Trend - ABC News

During the 2008 campaign and health care reform debate in 2009, President Obama said repeatedly that his plan would bend the cost curve downward, ultimately saving the average family $2,500 per year.

At a rally in Virginia in June 2008, Obama said: “In an Obama administration, we’ll lower premiums by up to $2,500 for a typical family per year.”

“We’ll do it by investing in disease prevention, not just disease management; by investing in a paperless health care system to reduce administrative costs; and by covering every single American and making sure that they can take their health care with them if they lose their job,” he said at the time. “We’ll also reduce costs for business and their workers by picking up the tab for some of the most expensive illnesses.

“We won’t do all this twenty years from now, or ten years from now,” he said. “We’ll do it by the end of my first term as President of the United States.”

And in a debate with Sen. John McCain in October 2008: “The only thing we’re going to try to do is lower costs so that those cost savings are passed onto you. And we estimate we can cut the average family’s premium by about $2,500 per year,” he said.

promises, promises...
 
Ok, let me back up a little then...I think that once this law is fully implemented that it will cause a rapid decline into services, and quality of care given to the point that the government will have no choice but to take it over fully, and run it. At that point, you will see some of the horrors reported by other countries in their own UHC systems, just in time for me to reach the point in my life where I will need increasing levels of health care....

I don't really think that's accurate. It's not like we had a free market economy for health care before. For one thing, healthcare has been highly regulated, and even if you deregulate healthcare, the healthcare market does not exist in a vacuum. Corporate limited liability in the healthcare, insurance, pharmaceutical industries precludes a free market. So we're talking about an industry that is entirely subject to governmental artifice no matter what. The broken system we had before is no better than PACA.

What we need is to eliminate limited liability, and let market forces operate on healthcare and the economy at large, uninhibited by government interference. Until that day, it's all the same bull****. PACA is just more of the same, and you likely won't even notice. You might even experience some benefits.
 
That's where you are INCREDIBLY wrong.

Almost all insurance is you subsidizing someone else. You aren't simply "paying for yours."

No I am correct but you managed to totally miss the point. I am not paying my own plus someone elses insurance payment which is what I will now get to do with Obamacare.
 
time mag, today:

The exchanges need roughly 2.7 million healthy 18-to-35-year-olds to sign up to be solvent. The majority of that group is nonwhite and male, according to [White House] data, and a third are located in just three states: California, Texas and Florida. If too few choose to enroll because they don’t know about the law, don’t like it, or feel they don’t need insurance, the exchanges will fail. And so will the law.

And Now, The Selling of Obamacare | TIME.com

time says the white house is "obsessed"

too bad the law is so unpopular obama never talks about it in public

buy, hey, he's got his 501c4 ofa out there working it

OFA to launch Obamacare campaign - Katie Glueck - POLITICO.com

on the 6 month anniversary the "extension of the admin devoted solely to the president's agenda," as the nyt describes the irs' favorite social welfare group, drew a huge crowd of 3 at its san bernadino ban-the-gun rally

Organizing for Action rallies in San Bernardino for gun control - San Bernardino County Sun

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/23/u...ess-agenda.html?pagewanted=1&%2359&%2359&_r=0

maybe pp and the nba can turn things

Planned Parenthood promoting Obamacare - Kathryn Smith - POLITICO.com

White House seeks NBA assist on Obamacare - Kyle Cheney - POLITICO.com

obama's obsessed

so was ahab

good luck chasing that great white whale

the exchanges are scheduled to be up and running october 1

choo choo!
 
The biggest problem - and you're right that the ACA doesn't address it - is cost. Our "market" system is highly flawed. It incentivises all the wrong things - rewarding hypochondriacs and the doctors who exploit them while punishing ones who need legitimate care. It also ignores simple solutions and treatments, in favor of expensive, highly profitable ones - regardless of outcomes. And we needlessly try to desperately hang onto life toward the end, when it's simply wasting money (I'm not talking about a 60-year-old fighting cancer; I'm talking about a 90-year-old whose family refuses to let go - we spend a LOT of money on those types).

For instance, Americans are ordered colonoscopies more than any other nation in the world. We do them "because we should at your age," even though there is no real medical sign that it's necessary. When people try to dial that back, we shout: DEATH PANEL!!! We also pay at least twice what others pay in the world for colonoscopies.

So, I'll agree with you that the ACA doesn't do anything for cost - at least not at present.

But you have to recognize that no matter what type of insurance you have, you are already subsidizing the care of others - even the uninsured. And the way we're doing it right now is way too expensive.

Oh I do recognize that. My mom was an RN, My dad was a Pharmacist, My sister is a Nurse Practitioner, and My daughter is half way to her RN now. This doesn't make me any kind of expert or anything, but I am not ignorant about the subject either. That 90 year old that is clinging to life, that the family won't say 'end it' to, is not all that cut and dried either. What if the person is lucid, and doesn't want to go, it is a natural human instinct you know? Are we really so callous to say to that person, you don't have a right to live because you're too old in our eyes? That's why doctors should get a whole lot better at counseling the families, and the ACA takes much of that decision out of the doctors hand, and places it in a government panel called the IPAB. That is not informed choice, that is government bureaucrats making a wholesale choice based on what saves, or should save money in their hands...I don't know about you, but I don't want Lois Lerner (example here) making that choice for me, or my family.

Colonoscopies in this country are ordered at 50 because it is part of preventive care. Are you saying that we should just deal with the cancer once it appears? That seems to run against what we have been told up to this point, but that may not be what you are saying here and I understand that...I personally was so glad this year when mine came back clean, to know that I didn't have to do it again for 10 years.

I think that if you wanted to really start to address the problem, we could have looked at more common sense things like for the young people entering the system, that have little to no expectancy of really using the types of insurance they are now forced to obtain, an HSP (Health savings plan) coupled with a catastrophic insurance plan would have sufficed, and saved them money. People at say 35 years old to say 65 years old, would fall under this mandate to have, but most people my age do have insurance through their companies they work for. And over 65 is Medicare. The one thing I would say for the 35 to 65 group, is that insurance needs to be opened up for sale across state lines, so that companies offering can obtain the best coverage for their employees possible. Right now, as it sits, the ACA has companies pondering whether or not they will just drop the coverage all together, and kick the employees to the government curb....How is that a good thing?
 
Ran across this and thought it might add something:

3. “The free market can resolve our problems in health care”
This myth continues to underpin pro-market health care policies of both major political parties, with the belief that the marketplace can effectively resolve access, cost, and quality problems in delivery of health care services. Touted as the “American way,” this view reflects the belief that a private, competitive market exists in health care. Yet there is incontrovertible evidence that health care markets do not behave in a freely competitive way. Robert Evans (38), health care economist at the University of British Columbia, has pointed out how market mechanisms in health care yield distributional advantages for particular groups, including providers, suppliers, insurers, and more affluent and healthier people. He calls attention to the natural alliance between providers, suppliers, and higher-income citizens in support of private financing of health care, leaving the burden of financing care for the sick and uninsured to the public sector. As a result, the farther such privatization goes, the more difficult it is to finance basic health care services for sick and lower-income people through a smaller risk pool.
It is well documented that the public interest is not well served by an unfettered private health care market, as reflected by these examples:
• An overriding goal of for-profit health care corporations is to maximize return on investment to shareholders; thus, even during our current recession, some for-profit hospital chains have reported profits of 45 percent or more (16).
• The extent of for-profit ownership of health care organizations is higher than many realize, including (in 1998) 85 percent of dialysis centers, 70 percent of nursing homes and home care agencies, and 64 percent of HMOs (39).
• Investor-owned health care organizations provide lower quality care than do nonprofit organizations (e.g., investor-owned HMOs scored worse in a 1999 study on all 14 quality indicators reported to the National Committee for Quality Assurance, such as 27 percent lower rate of eye examinations for patients with diabetes) (26).
• The overhead of investor-owned HMOs is 25 to 33 percent higher for some of the largest HMOs than for nonprofit HMOs (40).
• Market-oriented HMOs commonly use many strategies designed more to manage costs than to manage care (e.g., “deselection” (firing) of high- utilizing physicians, attempts to enroll healthier enrollees rather than sicker ones) (41).

http://www.pnhp.org/reader-old/Section 8 - Myth Busters/Myths as Barriers (Geyman).pdf
 
That's why doctors should get a whole lot better at counseling the families, and the ACA takes much of that decision out of the doctors hand, and places it in a government panel called the IPAB. That is not informed choice, that is government bureaucrats making a wholesale choice based on what saves, or should save money in their hands...I don't know about you, but I don't want Lois Lerner (example here) making that choice for me, or my family.

No it doesn't. You remember the outcry from the right when they tried to encourage counseling by including it without a copay in the ACA?
Still, the give-and-take was nothing compared to the howls of protest that emerged when proponents tried to include end-of-life counseling in the law itself. Sarah Palin, the 2008 Republican vice presidential nominee, called them "death panels." John Boehner, the incoming GOP House speaker, said it was akin to the government recommending euthanasia.

Obama-care: No 'death panels,' but annual counseling allowed

Do you know what IPAB is and how it functions? It submits proposals to reign in Medicare costs, IF Medicare costs exceeds a certain target threshold.

By law, these proposals cannot ration health care, raise revenues or Medicare beneficiary premiums, increase deductibles, coinsurance, co-payments, or restrict benefits.

Congress also has the option to override these proposals.

As a footnote that target threshold wasn't reached for 2015 - the first year that the IPAB was to be in effect.
As health-care costs slow, IPAB’s launch is delayed

Also a board hasn't been appointed yet, partly because of Boehner and McConnell's refusal to appoint their allocation of conservative board members. Ironically, without a board, this gives HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius sole responsibility to submit such proposals, if necessary.
 
California lawmakers passed a law (Senate Bill 35) requiring that voter registration be part of the health insurance exchange.

Last month, Covered California announced $37 million in grants to 48 organizations to build public awareness about the opening of the health exchange on Oct. 1.

Of the 48 organizations that got grants, only a handful are health-care related. The California NAACP received $600,000 to do door-to-door canvassing and presentations at community organizations.

Service Employees International Union, which says its mission is “economic justice,” received two grants totaling $2 million to make phone calls, robo-calls and go door to door.

The Los Angeles County Federation of Labor AFL-CIO got $1 million for door-to-door, one-on-one education and social networking. It describes its role as “engaging in both organizing and political campaigns, electing pro-union and pro-worker candidates.”

Taking ObamaCare of Business | National Review Online
 
No it doesn't. You remember the outcry from the right when they tried to encourage counseling by including it without a copay in the ACA?


Do you know what IPAB is and how it functions? It submits proposals to reign in Medicare costs, IF Medicare costs exceeds a certain target threshold.

By law, these proposals cannot ration health care, raise revenues or Medicare beneficiary premiums, increase deductibles, coinsurance, co-payments, or restrict benefits.

Congress also has the option to override these proposals.

As a footnote that target threshold wasn't reached for 2015 - the first year that the IPAB was to be in effect.
As health-care costs slow, IPAB’s launch is delayed

Also a board hasn't been appointed yet, partly because of Boehner and McConnell's refusal to appoint their allocation of conservative board members. Ironically, without a board, this gives HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius sole responsibility to submit such proposals, if necessary.

The "outcry" means nothing to progressives that have chosen a back door to UHC against the will of the people. Nothing, and I do mean NOTHING this administration, or their progressive allies in the House and Senate have done over the past 5 years reassures people that they can trust this corrupt bunch of lying criminals....
 
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